05-12-12, 08:41 PM #1
Will Greece exit the Euro? (Thread now a poll)
Billy T has converted to a poll, as Michael asked. - only way I could was to copy all 15 old posts into this new poll OP. I will delete no-poll version soon - just locking it for now. (For the record, there were 194 viewers when no-poll version was locked.)
Last edited by Billy T; 05-12-12 at 09:00 PM.
05-13-12, 09:41 AM #2
They shouldn't for who would be willing to trade with them if their currency has no real value when they start producing it? Right now they at least have a currency that is used widely throughout the world because it is valued as a total European currency not just one countries alone. So they can still trade with anyone now but changing currencies would only bring about a catastrophic change for years to come, IMHO.
05-13-12, 10:11 AM #3
I'm going with NO. Greece is nothing without the Euro and they know it. They'll need to buckle down and suck it up. German banks will probably have to take a hit sooner or later as well. Germany would probably be better to leave the Euro as they're simply too competitive. But, they don't want to leave either. They probably wouldn't mind it if Greeks stopped burning their flag and calling them Nazi's - considering THEY paid for all the cars and nice houses and all the other shit Greeks enjoy.
Germans are hard working and sacrifice. They have not had a wage increase in 15 years paying 1.2 Trillion to reconstruct eastern Germany. NOW Greece wants them to work another 10 more years rebuilding Greece too.... you have got to be kidding. While Greeks retire at 55. I don't think so.
So, in the end Greece will have to work hard. I just hope they don't take the easy way out and sell ALL their assets. AND I hope they sue the Bankers who cooked the books with their crooked politicians.
One thing I find sad is how quickly they are to give up on democracy. I can see the same thing happening in America. When push comes to shove, most people don't appreciate or care about democracy. And we've been living in a Fascist State for so long, why not give up the rest of it? It's not like most people do anything democratic anyway.
05-13-12, 10:15 AM #4
Consider if you had a deadbeat cousin and his entire family who were living beyond their means and it's YOU who finds himself responsible for paying for all their extravagances. Sooner or later you will reach the point of cutting him off.
That's exactly the position the EU and Greece are in.
05-13-12, 03:06 PM #5
I just voted 'yes'.
Certainly most Greeks don't want to leave the Euro. But they might not have any choice if their country fails to cooperate. They might be expelled.
Even the Coalition of the Radial Left says that it wants to stay in the Euro. But its leader also says that Greece needs to repudiate what he calls "barbaric" austerity measures. He has even called for Greece to stop repaying its already devalued debt, channeling the money saved into preserving social services.
But when he's asked about how Greece will get by without continued huge infusions of cash from the ECB and ultimately from Germany, he assures everyone that the rest of Europe would never cut Greece off. They are too concerned about preserving the Euro. So he's saying that Greece can repudiate its agreements and essentially flip the rest of the EU off, and that they will nevertheless keep paying Greece billions of Euros because they are too afraid of the possible consequences if they stopped.
The guy is basically proposing to play chicken with Europe and with Berlin. Greeks can continue to have the welfare state that they want, and the rest of Europe will have no choice but to pay for it. He thinks that the rest of the Euro-zone will back down. I'm not convinced that they will.
Last edited by Yazata; 05-13-12 at 03:33 PM.
05-13-12, 05:16 PM #6
I'm not sure if they will leave the Euro because they might somehow get a Eureka moment of understanding on how life depends on consumption of resources on a finite planet with billions of impoverished people wanting a decent life. Then they might find a way to get along with much less while meeting needs more efficiently.
05-13-12, 07:22 PM #7
Yeah, well, good luck with THAT kind of thinking! There's absolutely no miracle that could pop up and save them. Don't bother holding your breath.
In fact, that's exactly what Greece has been thinking all along - that some magical bird somehow fly over them and start laying golden eggs.
05-13-12, 10:14 PM #8
"A deus ex machina" ... (or plural: dei ex machina) is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object. From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina
The Greek economy is so bad, probably "dei ex machina" are required. Perhaps, however, some depressed and poor Greek plans to commit suicide at the edge of the grave he is digging - just fall in after shooting himself, but loo-and-behold, about one meter down the dirt becomes solid gold surface more than 10 square meters wide and extending up many miles from the earth´s core. That is the "deus ex machina" the Greeks need now.
But an economic disaster for the former rich of the world with gold in their vaults - Carl Marx´s prophecy becomes true - gold is of so little real value that its main use is to pave the floors of public bathrooms.
Last edited by Billy T; 05-13-12 at 10:29 PM.
05-13-12, 10:47 PM #9
I'm sure smaller European countries have plans (in place, if needed) to leave the eurozone, but Greece will not be first. Maybe after the bills are paid.
05-14-12, 03:01 PM #10
You're confusing structural competitiveness, and maybe thriftiness, with "hard work," and it's just wrong.
05-14-12, 05:55 PM #11
I'd like to know how the OECD collects their data. Was it via interview? Phone call? Showing up for 8 hours is a lot different than working for 8 hours. So, maybe it's wrong, but maybe it's actually correct.
I've worked with Greeks, Italians and Germans. The people I work with a generally all driven a relatively hard working. Although the Greek did still live at home with mommy until .... actually, I think she still lives there. Anecdotally, I noticed the Germans (all of them) work efficiently. They come in very early. Usually before anyone, including their boss. AND they will stay back late if need be. They just work work and work. And I'd never see them on facebook. Unlike EVERYONE else. I'd sneak around to their computer and there they'd be, staring intently at a screen of data.
Call it efficiency or whatnot. They seem to be hard working people to me....
05-14-12, 06:10 PM #12I'd sneak around to their computer and there they'd be, staring intently at a screen of data.
05-14-12, 06:11 PM #13
05-14-12, 07:34 PM #14
05-14-12, 09:57 PM #15
Either way, they've borrowed the money. They knowingly spent the money. That brand new airport - Germany paid for it. That state of the art railway, the one that's better than in Germany, Germans paid for that too. It's crazy Greeks can retire EARLIER than the people they borrowed money for.... so that those same people can PAY for Greek retirement?!?! I mean, WTF??? What kind of logic is that? Early retirement in Greece is a full decade earlier than in Germany. And MOST Greek retire as soon as they can.
While, I'm sorry but the gravy train is going to HAVE to end. One way or another.
05-14-12, 10:01 PM #16
Either way, they've borrowed the money. They knowingly spent the money. That brand new airport - Germany paid for it. That state of the art railway, the one that's better than in Germany, Germans paid for that too. The Olympic trains were paid for (as a gift) by the English! Many of them who are broke. It's crazy Greeks can retire EARLIER than the people they borrowed money from.... so that those same people can PAY for Greek retirement?!?! I mean, WTF??? What kind of logic is that? Early retirement in Greece is a full decade earlier than in Germany. And MOST Greek retire as soon as they can.
Well, I'm sorry but the gravy train is going to HAVE to end. One way or another. Surely you'd agree to that?
My Big Fat Greek Gravy Train
The people of Greece barely paid a penny of the underground’s £1.5 billion cost — a ‘sweetener’ from Brussels (and, therefore, the UK taxpayer) to help the country put on an impressive 2004 Olympics free of the city’s notorious traffic jams.The transport perks are not confined to the customers. Incredibly, the average salary on Greece’s railways is £60,000, which includes cleaners and track workers - treble the earnings of the average private sector employee here (England).
As an aside, when I hear Greeks complaining about "Nazi" Germans and burning their flags, I can't but help hearing an echo of "The Steve Jobs! I hope you're happy NOW THAT you have his Kidney!" Or when people tell me "I" should 'pay my income tax' because "I use the roads". It's really all the same sort of thinking. IMO anyway. "We" have a 'right' to other people's private property. Put succinctly: stealing
Last edited by Michael; 05-15-12 at 03:08 AM.
05-15-12, 02:49 PM #17
But that isn't the same thing as the Greeks being lazy workers. Workforce productivity is more a function of the level of education of the workers, the level of investment in productive infrastructure, corruption, etc. as it is of individual work ethic. Again, the Greeks are spending like 50% more time at work than the Germans are. It's just that the Germans have degrees in engineering and work in high-tech plants with robots to help them build fancy cars, while the Greeks are out picking olives. Add in the differences in corruption, and it's easy to see where all the productivity went, and it wasn't due to lazy workers.
There's an old truism about money lending: If you owe the bank $10,000 you have a problem. If you owe the bank $10,000,000 the bank has a problem. Why aren't you lambasting Germany for being stupid enough to make all these bad loans in the first place?
05-15-12, 08:20 PM #18
NO the stealing part is the feeling of entitlement to other people's property and then using force (usually the State, through the vote) to take it.
Yes, I agree with you, it was the Banks that have taken risk and they in turn might/will loose out. Of course this would mean they would claim ownership to the assets they funded. Like the International Airport, many of the roads, the trains, waterworks, and the retirement funds of the Greeks. You'd agree with this? I mean, YOU'RE the one in love with this system. Well, this is the inevitable outcome. As was clearly stated nearly 200 years ago by Thomas Jefferson. CLEARLY stated.
Lastly, it won't just be the German banks. Ultimately all of those loans were insured. By United States Insurance Companies. So, it's actually the USA that has to pay - and who will ultimately have right to claim ownership. The same USA that has the biggest military in the world. I wonder what the American Citizens will think of Greeks retiring at 55 when Americans are on the hook for those very same retirement payments? Americans that are watching their savings being inflated away to pay for all of this. Who have a retirement of age 67. Yes, it's interesting how people can justify things when they're in a corner. It's also interesting how people will give away their land for a few shinny beads.
So, yes, you are right. The 'banks' really stand to loose a lot out of this. What do you think? After all, you are the one who justified using force to take from another (income tax). Maybe a few Greek island resorts would also make good American military bases? Or Bankers resorts? At the end of the day countries are lines on a map and while might may not make right, if you call it tax at least you can pretend it does.
Welcome to your wonderful immoral world of incompetent idiot-run Centralized Banking Cartels. Where when all else fails you can always steal from Peter to pay Paul. All aboard, next stop Athens.
05-15-12, 08:29 PM #19
Look here, some ungood, unmodern quote I dug up.
The central bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the Principles and form of our Constitution. I am an Enemy to all banks discounting bills or notes for anything but Coin. If the American People allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the People of all their Property until their Children will wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered.
-- Thomson Jefferson
Amazing how some dusty old bullshit from 200 years ago rings just as true today, as it did then.
05-15-12, 09:56 PM #20
I think the lenders were rather predatory, like loan sharks. because they took advantage of indebting the Greek people who don't really understand economics. I've seen economic decline coming for a couple of decades, and if I were a nation that relied so heavily on tourism, I would try to get into another industry before the people stopped visiting.
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