View Poll Results: Will Greece Exit the Euro (Poll version)

Voters
10. This poll is closed
  • Yes

    7 70.00%
  • No

    3 30.00%
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 39

Thread: Will Greece exit the Euro? (Thread now a poll)

  1. #1
    Please use Sugar Cane Alcohol Billy T's Avatar
    Posts
    19,693

    Will Greece exit the Euro? (Thread now a poll)

    Billy T has converted to a poll, as Michael asked. - only way I could was to copy all 15 old posts into this new poll OP. I will delete no-poll version soon - just locking it for now. (For the record, there were 194 viewers when no-poll version was locked.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    No poll yet?!?!

    Well, I'm going to vote NO Greece will not leave the Euro. I believe most Greeks want to be in the Euro and most have given up on 'Democracy' as institution. Which is about right in the stage of the cycle. This is going to happen to us as well. Much later, but, it'll happen. The Greeks are ready to give up their individual liberty for a peace of paper.

    You have to hand it to the Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    Could Fraggle put the poll up? I checked the box for [2] options but must have missed something because I didn't get the two choices [Yes] or [No].
    Quote Originally Posted by Carcano View Post
    What you describe as a benefit is precisely the problem. Electronic accounting is fine as long as its backed by something real that cant be manufactured at zero cost.

    A good example is http://www.goldmoney.com/index4.html

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...rticle2172349/
    Quote Originally Posted by quadraphonics View Post
    But they were only in a position to actually do those things because Euro membership meant that they were paying the same rates on borrowed money as Germany. Absent the cheap money made available by Euro membership, the bond markets never would have financed the Greek spending spree in the first place. What happened was that Germany gave Greece a credit card that was guaranteed by Germany, and the Greeks responded to that incentive. The real question is why Germany thought it would be a good idea to do that, absent any plan for unification of labor markets or fiscal policy.

    Again, absent the adoption of the Euro, they'd never have been able to borrow their way into this mess in the first place.

    But as to "collapse:" not hardly. Currency devaluation (along with some bond-write-downs) is exactly the orderly, normal process for dealing with these sorts of things, and it's exactly that Euro membership prevents such that Greece will end up exiting the Euro. Currency devaluation would turn around the Greek balance of trade, which would spur investment in production, which would bring down unemployment, etc. The current approach, wherein Greece stays in the Euro, endures indefinite unemployment above 20% (and greater than 50% for the youth sector), hollows out its government, etc. is itself a "complete collapse." That's why Greece has been rioting for two solid years now, and just threw out the politicians that had decided on the current set-up.

    These kinds of economic/policy argument from national character are just so much empty bigotry.

    It's always been unclear to me why the prospect of retirement age tracking life expectancy is supposed to represent some kind of doomsday scenario. I mean, sure, I'd like a long retirement as much as the next guy. But it seems perfectly reasonable that retirement ages should track life expectancy.

    I think you're a bit pre-mature on this, considering that the industrial revolution is only just now reaching significant portions of humanity.

    Except we are still going to need massive infrastructure like steel mills and transcontinental railroads for the forseeable future, and so major capital concentrations and corporations will persist. Indeed, your argument there seems to ignore the fact that capital accumulation and corporatism have only increased in recent years.

    Such an object would also necessarily have zero cash value, and so fail to qualify as an "asset."

    Indeed, the assets of, say, softare companies, consist of the source code - and the knowledge and experience required to create, maintain and improve it - and not the actual distributable object code. To the extent that people pay for software anymore, they are paying for support and future improvement and not the object code. If you don't want the support and upgrades, you can almost always just get an alternative package for free.

    There's nothing "virtual" about services.

    No, they're based on the premise that the purchasing power of consumers, and the output of producers will keep expanding. This does not necessarily require that the number of consumers and producers will keep expanding. You could have a fixed population that keeps improving its purchasing power via technological innovation, and the growth models will still work. Population growth can be an easy, reliable way to achieve that effect, but it's not the only one and it doesn't even necessarily work in all times and places (there are plenty of societies today with very large populations, and unimpressive total purchasing power/output, after all).
    Quote Originally Posted by Carcano View Post
    Thats right...this will of course end in the destruction of our culture.

    Our leaders dont even believe we have a culture worth preserving...if they did they would alter the tax code to encourage a higher domestic birth rate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carcano View Post
    Its not just the Greeks Fraggle, everybody in the western world is going to have to get back to reality...and scrap the illusion that financial engineering and cyberdoodling creates wealth.

    We have already seen three huge investment banks go down...that were established for decades.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yazata View Post
    I just read something that suggests that even the widespread belief that Greece will likely be leaving the Euro, could be devastating.

    Greeks, individuals and businesses, have Greek bank accounts, denominated in Euros. If Greece left the Euro and reverted to the Drachma, presumably all those Greek bank accounts would be redenominated in Drachmas.

    So if people think that's likely to happen, and if they expect the new Drachma to immediately plummet in value relative to the Euro, then everyone in Greece is going to want to withdraw all of their Greek bank deposits and move their Euros to banks outside Greece, so that the money will remain Euros that will rise dramatically in value against the Drachma.

    Meaning that even the likelihood of Greece leaving the Euro is apt to cause a tremendous run on all the Greek banks, which could threaten the collapse of the Greek economy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carcano View Post
    Yes and all that infantilism was aided and abetted by Goldman Sachs and the globally integrated banking system...and the global market in cheap goods made by Asian slaves and their currency manipulating political leaders.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...676634,00.html
    Quote Originally Posted by Carcano View Post
    Lets see...yesterday I got up and cashed a paper check at my bricks and mortar bank. Then I travelled to a client's home in a real car burning real fuel and fixed her window sills and the trapdoor to her attic, and well as re-pointing some of the brickwork outside. We sat down at one point in her real house and had real food for lunch.

    This morning I got up and bought some real grape juice, apple juice, three rolls baked by a real human baker from France, a dozen eggs laid by real live hens, a block of tofu made with real soybeans, and a bottle of corn oil extracted from corn grown in rich black soil. All paid for with one and two dollar Canadian coins...made out of real metal.

    Come to think of it...I havent bought anything in the cybermarket for about a month.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fraggle Rocker View Post
    Why do you think globalism was a factor in the demise of the Greek debacle??? They did it to themselves.
    • The Greek people refused to act like adults. They demanded favors and services that they couldn't afford, such as early retirement, long vacations, and easy jobs with long breaks.
    • The Greek government went along with this. They committed outright fraud by overvaluing assets and undervaluing liabilities, making it look like their national debt was manageable so they could continue to borrow money from other countries to finance this national adolescence.
    If Greece had not adopted the Euro, the country would now be a repeat of Germany in the 1920s: Its currency would be worthless and it would be printing postage stamps denominated in billions of drachma. Their economy would completely collapse.

    They'd probably elect some rabble-rousing leader who would convince them that the way out of their dilemma is to start a war against the people they've always hated: Turkey. What goods can the Greeks manufacture for themselves? They don't want to work. They all think they're aristocrats. Yes I know there are honorable people there, but they're overwhelmed by the ones who think they can continue to get something for nothing until they die and then leave it all for somebody else to clean up.

    Their people are suffering from the same fallacy as people everywhere. The birth rate in the developed nations has dropped below replacement level. There used to be five or six people supporting each retired person, but now it's more like two or three. The only thing that's propping up the Ponzi Schemes we refer to as "social security" in the USA, France, the UK and many other countries is immigration. This is absolutely not the time to be allowing people to retire in their 50s! The world will have no choice but to keep raising the retirement age. I will probably live to see it rise to 70 in the USA, and mark my words, you younger people will see it reach 75.You haven't been reading your memos. The Industrial Era is over. This is the Post-Industrial Era, the Electronic Era, the Information Age, the Age of Computers, whatever you want to call it. The old paradigms are failing and being replaced by new ones. The up-side of that is that the phenomenon of the corporation will fade away, now that projects don't require the massive concentrations of surplus wealth ("capital") that were needed for steel mills and transcontinental railroads.

    The down-side is that we're living during interesting times. (No, that is in fact not an old Chinese curse. It was made up by a British guy who had never been to China.)

    The way to survive during interesting times is to absolutely not try to turn the clock back and do things that might have worked 100 years ago. It's a different planet now. The gold standard??? Give me a break! Money is all electronic now. Your generation will probably see the tipping point at which the majority of the assets of civilization are virtual: databases, patents, etc. This will cause as great a shudder in the world's economic system as industrialization did. Virtual assets can be copied and distributed for almost zero cost. They don't need to be "manufactured."

    What kind of economic theory will be needed to describe a system in which most of the stuff you want will pop into existence by pushing a button, and you'll just be charged a monthly fee for having the hardware and software to do it?

    I'm not saying that we won't need food, clothes, houses and toys anymore. I'm saying that the value of the virtual market (including services) will be greater than the value of the tangible market.

    If you don't believe me, recall that 500 years ago no one would have believed that a day would come when 99% of the world's population were not employed in the food production and distribution industry. Today it's something like 3%. That's why you're sitting here typing on a computer instead of out planting and harvesting crops.

    Oh yeah, don't forget that every economic model since Adam Smith is based upon the unspoken premise that the number of consumers and producers will keep expanding. What's going to happen at the end of this century, when those numbers start contracting? The last time that happened was about 50,000 years ago when people weren't even farmers yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yazata View Post
    I think that it's increasingly likely that the Greeks will leave (or be expelled) from the Euro.

    The recent Greek election results left two parties (New Democracy and Pasok) willing to adhere to the European deficit-reduction plan two seats short of a majority in Parliament. Unfortunately, they don't seem to have been able to pick up those two seats.

    The anti-austerity parties are fragmented themselves and even further from a majority.

    If nobody can put together a majority, which appears to be the case, there will apparently be another election, probably next month. And talk is that the Coalition of the Radical Left is likely to increase its number of seats if that happens, and may conceivably be able to put together a majority in coalition with the Communists, the Party of the Democratic Left and Pasok (if that party changes its position to anti-austerity).

    If that happened, and if the leaders of the Coalition put the rather radical policies they've been advocating into effect (such as halting all payments on Greek bonds and redirecting the savings to social services), then Germany would doubtless terminate its financial support for Greece and would probably push for Greece's expulsion from the Euro.

    And Greece would reinstitute the Drachma, which would immediately plummet in value. Exports would probably go up as Greek products' Drachma-denominated prices go down, but imports would drop like a stone as their Euro denominated prices skyrocket. Inflation would rip into lots of vulnerable people like senior citizens on fixed incomes.

    I guess that the question then would be contagion effects. If the common-currency-regime fails in Greece, what about someplace like Portugal? Or a big country like Spain? If the new government in Paris backs away from the Merkozy accords, others will probably follow. Then the whole Euro currency might be in danger of failing, with Germany pulling out, reducing fiscal integration with the others and reinstituting its Mark, in hopes of preventing the other Euro-members problems from spreading to Germany and pulling it down as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by TAMallick View Post
    Now it is doubtful, can the Euro be survived? I think the Euro can't be survived. Because on the Euro Jone gradually economic conditions is more worsen. When one difficult to survive, how can they support others?
    Quote Originally Posted by Carcano View Post
    Over the next ten years we will see the rejection of globalism and a renaissance of national sovereignty.

    Nationalist parties will again rise to positions of power as the people realize what inter-dependent systems really mean...the loss of control over your own life.

    There will be a rejection of free trade and political unions of all kinds.

    An immediate tariff on imports of goods the Greek people can manufacture themselves would be a good start...along with the establishment of a national credit union system to replace private banking, and a return to a gold standard.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cf7KuB0cwOY
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    Last year we held a poll "Will Greece Default on it's Debt"? and most people said they would, and they did.

    This time I'm wondering: Will Greece Exit the Euro?

    It's a tougher question. Of course there's no way they can pay back all the German money their crooked politicians spent on them, promising them all sorts of bullshit, which they themselves greatly enjoyed (Thanks Germany . BUT, would they leave the Euro? It'd be much harder to pay back their Euro debts in Greek Drachma. It's also possible Germany will leave. I'm pretty sure they have all the gold now. Why not? When the USD implodes, all that gold's going to go through the roof. Then again, the NY Fed holds a lot of Germany's gold (for them... you know, we're just keeping it safe). So, it's possible Germany leaves. Or Greece lives under 10-15 years of Austerity? Or something altogether different.

    I hope they don't sell the acropolis, Parthenon, and Aegean Islands..... Interesting times ahead.
    Last edited by Billy T; 05-12-12 at 08:00 PM.

  2. #2
    Valued Senior Member Buddha12's Avatar
    Posts
    2,951
    They shouldn't for who would be willing to trade with them if their currency has no real value when they start producing it? Right now they at least have a currency that is used widely throughout the world because it is valued as a total European currency not just one countries alone. So they can still trade with anyone now but changing currencies would only bring about a catastrophic change for years to come, IMHO.

  3. #3
    I'm going with NO. Greece is nothing without the Euro and they know it. They'll need to buckle down and suck it up. German banks will probably have to take a hit sooner or later as well. Germany would probably be better to leave the Euro as they're simply too competitive. But, they don't want to leave either. They probably wouldn't mind it if Greeks stopped burning their flag and calling them Nazi's - considering THEY paid for all the cars and nice houses and all the other shit Greeks enjoy.

    Germans are hard working and sacrifice. They have not had a wage increase in 15 years paying 1.2 Trillion to reconstruct eastern Germany. NOW Greece wants them to work another 10 more years rebuilding Greece too.... you have got to be kidding. While Greeks retire at 55. I don't think so.

    So, in the end Greece will have to work hard. I just hope they don't take the easy way out and sell ALL their assets. AND I hope they sue the Bankers who cooked the books with their crooked politicians.

    One thing I find sad is how quickly they are to give up on democracy. I can see the same thing happening in America. When push comes to shove, most people don't appreciate or care about democracy. And we've been living in a Fascist State for so long, why not give up the rest of it? It's not like most people do anything democratic anyway.

  4. #4
    Valued Senior Member
    Posts
    10,261
    Quote Originally Posted by Buddha12 View Post
    They shouldn't for who would be willing to trade with them if their currency has no real value when they start producing it? Right now they at least have a currency that is used widely throughout the world because it is valued as a total European currency not just one countries alone. So they can still trade with anyone now but changing currencies would only bring about a catastrophic change for years to come, IMHO.
    Your point is well-taken, Budda, but in the long run it won't matter. That's because it's not Greece that will leave the Euro but rather the other way around.

    Consider if you had a deadbeat cousin and his entire family who were living beyond their means and it's YOU who finds himself responsible for paying for all their extravagances. Sooner or later you will reach the point of cutting him off.

    That's exactly the position the EU and Greece are in.

  5. #5
    Valued Senior Member
    Posts
    2,320
    I just voted 'yes'.

    Certainly most Greeks don't want to leave the Euro. But they might not have any choice if their country fails to cooperate. They might be expelled.

    Even the Coalition of the Radial Left says that it wants to stay in the Euro. But its leader also says that Greece needs to repudiate what he calls "barbaric" austerity measures. He has even called for Greece to stop repaying its already devalued debt, channeling the money saved into preserving social services.

    But when he's asked about how Greece will get by without continued huge infusions of cash from the ECB and ultimately from Germany, he assures everyone that the rest of Europe would never cut Greece off. They are too concerned about preserving the Euro. So he's saying that Greece can repudiate its agreements and essentially flip the rest of the EU off, and that they will nevertheless keep paying Greece billions of Euros because they are too afraid of the possible consequences if they stopped.

    The guy is basically proposing to play chicken with Europe and with Berlin. Greeks can continue to have the welfare state that they want, and the rest of Europe will have no choice but to pay for it. He thinks that the rest of the Euro-zone will back down. I'm not convinced that they will.
    Last edited by Yazata; 05-13-12 at 02:33 PM.

  6. #6
    Valued Senior Member elte's Avatar
    Posts
    1,150
    I'm not sure if they will leave the Euro because they might somehow get a Eureka moment of understanding on how life depends on consumption of resources on a finite planet with billions of impoverished people wanting a decent life. Then they might find a way to get along with much less while meeting needs more efficiently.

  7. #7
    Valued Senior Member
    Posts
    10,261
    Quote Originally Posted by elte View Post
    I'm not sure if they will leave the Euro because they might somehow get a Eureka moment of understanding on how life depends on consumption of resources on a finite planet with billions of impoverished people wanting a decent life. Then they might find a way to get along with much less while meeting needs more efficiently.
    "Might?" And again, "Might?"

    Yeah, well, good luck with THAT kind of thinking! There's absolutely no miracle that could pop up and save them. Don't bother holding your breath.

    In fact, that's exactly what Greece has been thinking all along - that some magical bird somehow fly over them and start laying golden eggs.

  8. #8
    Please use Sugar Cane Alcohol Billy T's Avatar
    Posts
    19,693
    Quote Originally Posted by Read-Only View Post
    ... In fact, that's exactly what Greece has been thinking all along - that some magical bird somehow fly over them and start laying golden eggs.
    No, not a bird but idea is about 3000 years old for the Greeks:

    "A deus ex machina" ... (or plural: dei ex machina) is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object. From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina

    The Greek economy is so bad, probably "dei ex machina" are required. Perhaps, however, some depressed and poor Greek plans to commit suicide at the edge of the grave he is digging - just fall in after shooting himself, but loo-and-behold, about one meter down the dirt becomes solid gold surface more than 10 square meters wide and extending up many miles from the earth´s core. That is the "deus ex machina" the Greeks need now.

    But an economic disaster for the former rich of the world with gold in their vaults - Carl Marx´s prophecy becomes true - gold is of so little real value that its main use is to pave the floors of public bathrooms.
    Last edited by Billy T; 05-13-12 at 09:29 PM.

  9. #9
    I'm sure smaller European countries have plans (in place, if needed) to leave the eurozone, but Greece will not be first. Maybe after the bills are paid.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...ifficult-steps

  10. #10
    Bloodthirsty Barbarian
    Posts
    9,391
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    Germans are hard working and sacrifice. They have not had a wage increase in 15 years paying 1.2 Trillion to reconstruct eastern Germany. NOW Greece wants them to work another 10 more years rebuilding Greece too.... you have got to be kidding. While Greeks retire at 55. I don't think so.

    So, in the end Greece will have to work hard.
    The Greeks already work hard - the average Greek worker puts in 50% more hours per year than the average German worker.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/busine...are_lazy_.html

    You're confusing structural competitiveness, and maybe thriftiness, with "hard work," and it's just wrong.

  11. #11
    I'd like to know how the OECD collects their data. Was it via interview? Phone call? Showing up for 8 hours is a lot different than working for 8 hours. So, maybe it's wrong, but maybe it's actually correct.

    I've worked with Greeks, Italians and Germans. The people I work with a generally all driven a relatively hard working. Although the Greek did still live at home with mommy until .... actually, I think she still lives there. Anecdotally, I noticed the Germans (all of them) work efficiently. They come in very early. Usually before anyone, including their boss. AND they will stay back late if need be. They just work work and work. And I'd never see them on facebook. Unlike EVERYONE else. I'd sneak around to their computer and there they'd be, staring intently at a screen of data.

    Call it efficiency or whatnot. They seem to be hard working people to me....

  12. #12
    Valued Senior Member Buddha12's Avatar
    Posts
    2,951
    I'd sneak around to their computer and there they'd be, staring intently at a screen of data.
    Probably listening and watching to this Beethoven movement....

    http://tv.liberoquotidiano.it/video/...e-chiappe.html


  13. #13
    Bloodthirsty Barbarian
    Posts
    9,391
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    I'd like to know how the OECD collects their data. Was it via interview? Phone call? Showing up for 8 hours is a lot different than working for 8 hours. So, maybe it's wrong, but maybe it's actually correct.
    You do realize that there is a general trend, worldwide and across many years, wherein the richer a society becomes, the less hours of work the average worker puts in, right? What makes you think that Germany and Greece defy that general trend? A few anecdotes combined with cultural stereotypes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    I've worked with Greeks, Italians and Germans. The people I work with a generally all driven a relatively hard working. Although the Greek did still live at home with mommy until .... actually, I think she still lives there. Anecdotally, I noticed the Germans (all of them) work efficiently. They come in very early. Usually before anyone, including their boss. AND they will stay back late if need be. They just work work and work. And I'd never see them on facebook. Unlike EVERYONE else. I'd sneak around to their computer and there they'd be, staring intently at a screen of data.
    For somebody who is going to pre-emptively challenge the data-gathering methods of the OECD, you should be more careful not to lapse into the fallacy of arguing from anecdote in, literally, the very next paragraph.

  14. #14
    Valued Senior Member elte's Avatar
    Posts
    1,150
    Quote Originally Posted by Read-Only View Post
    "Might?" And again, "Might?"

    Yeah, well, good luck with THAT kind of thinking! There's absolutely no miracle that could pop up and save them. Don't bother holding your breath.

    In fact, that's exactly what Greece has been thinking all along - that some magical bird somehow fly over them and start laying golden eggs.
    Gotta have hope! What they should realize we would do well to realize also.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by quadraphonics View Post
    You do realize that there is a general trend, worldwide and across many years, wherein the richer a society becomes, the less hours of work the average worker puts in, right? What makes you think that Germany and Greece defy that general trend? A few anecdotes combined with cultural stereotypes?



    For somebody who is going to pre-emptively challenge the data-gathering methods of the OECD, you should be more careful not to lapse into the fallacy of arguing from anecdote in, literally, the very next paragraph.
    I simply stated that I'd like to see how they gathered their data. I don't doubt Greeks may spend a lot of time AT work. But, are they getting much done while they're there?

    Either way, they've borrowed the money. They knowingly spent the money. That brand new airport - Germany paid for it. That state of the art railway, the one that's better than in Germany, Germans paid for that too. It's crazy Greeks can retire EARLIER than the people they borrowed money for.... so that those same people can PAY for Greek retirement?!?! I mean, WTF??? What kind of logic is that? Early retirement in Greece is a full decade earlier than in Germany. And MOST Greek retire as soon as they can.

    While, I'm sorry but the gravy train is going to HAVE to end. One way or another.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by quadraphonics View Post
    You do realize that there is a general trend, worldwide and across many years, wherein the richer a society becomes, the less hours of work the average worker puts in, right? What makes you think that Germany and Greece defy that general trend? A few anecdotes combined with cultural stereotypes?



    For somebody who is going to pre-emptively challenge the data-gathering methods of the OECD, you should be more careful not to lapse into the fallacy of arguing from anecdote in, literally, the very next paragraph.
    I simply stated that I'd like to see how they gathered their data. I don't doubt Greeks may spend a lot of time AT work. But, are they getting much done while they're there?

    Either way, they've borrowed the money. They knowingly spent the money. That brand new airport - Germany paid for it. That state of the art railway, the one that's better than in Germany, Germans paid for that too. The Olympic trains were paid for (as a gift) by the English! Many of them who are broke. It's crazy Greeks can retire EARLIER than the people they borrowed money from.... so that those same people can PAY for Greek retirement?!?! I mean, WTF??? What kind of logic is that? Early retirement in Greece is a full decade earlier than in Germany. And MOST Greek retire as soon as they can.

    Well, I'm sorry but the gravy train is going to HAVE to end. One way or another. Surely you'd agree to that?



    My Big Fat Greek Gravy Train


    The people of Greece barely paid a penny of the underground’s £1.5 billion cost — a ‘sweetener’ from Brussels (and, therefore, the UK taxpayer) to help the country put on an impressive 2004 Olympics free of the city’s notorious traffic jams.The transport perks are not confined to the customers. Incredibly, the average salary on Greece’s railways is £60,000, which includes cleaners and track workers - treble the earnings of the average private sector employee here (England).

    As an aside, when I hear Greeks complaining about "Nazi" Germans and burning their flags, I can't but help hearing an echo of "The Steve Jobs! I hope you're happy NOW THAT you have his Kidney!" Or when people tell me "I" should 'pay my income tax' because "I use the roads". It's really all the same sort of thinking. IMO anyway. "We" have a 'right' to other people's private property. Put succinctly: stealing
    Last edited by Michael; 05-15-12 at 02:08 AM.

  17. #17
    Bloodthirsty Barbarian
    Posts
    9,391
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    I don't doubt Greeks may spend a lot of time AT work. But, are they getting much done while they're there?
    Obviously the per-hour-worked productivity of the Greek workforce is much lower than that of the German workforce (otherwise Greece would be much richer than Germany, especially given how many more hours they put in).

    But that isn't the same thing as the Greeks being lazy workers. Workforce productivity is more a function of the level of education of the workers, the level of investment in productive infrastructure, corruption, etc. as it is of individual work ethic. Again, the Greeks are spending like 50% more time at work than the Germans are. It's just that the Germans have degrees in engineering and work in high-tech plants with robots to help them build fancy cars, while the Greeks are out picking olives. Add in the differences in corruption, and it's easy to see where all the productivity went, and it wasn't due to lazy workers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    And MOST Greek retire as soon as they can.
    Most everyone retires as soon as they can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    Well, I'm sorry but the gravy train is going to HAVE to end. One way or another. Surely you'd agree to that?
    It already ended. Greece's economy is set to contract by double-digit percentages this year. Unemployment is above 20% (don't even ask what it is in the youth sector). Greece is currently going up in flames - that's why there's a thread on whether they'll exit from the Euro.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    "We" have a 'right' to other people's private property. Put succinctly: stealing
    The word for loaning people a bunch of money at favorable rates without bothering to do your due diligence isn't "stealing." It's "stupidity."

    There's an old truism about money lending: If you owe the bank $10,000 you have a problem. If you owe the bank $10,000,000 the bank has a problem. Why aren't you lambasting Germany for being stupid enough to make all these bad loans in the first place?

  18. #18
    NO the stealing part is the feeling of entitlement to other people's property and then using force (usually the State, through the vote) to take it.

    Yes, I agree with you, it was the Banks that have taken risk and they in turn might/will loose out. Of course this would mean they would claim ownership to the assets they funded. Like the International Airport, many of the roads, the trains, waterworks, and the retirement funds of the Greeks. You'd agree with this? I mean, YOU'RE the one in love with this system. Well, this is the inevitable outcome. As was clearly stated nearly 200 years ago by Thomas Jefferson. CLEARLY stated.

    Lastly, it won't just be the German banks. Ultimately all of those loans were insured. By United States Insurance Companies. So, it's actually the USA that has to pay - and who will ultimately have right to claim ownership. The same USA that has the biggest military in the world. I wonder what the American Citizens will think of Greeks retiring at 55 when Americans are on the hook for those very same retirement payments? Americans that are watching their savings being inflated away to pay for all of this. Who have a retirement of age 67. Yes, it's interesting how people can justify things when they're in a corner. It's also interesting how people will give away their land for a few shinny beads.

    So, yes, you are right. The 'banks' really stand to loose a lot out of this. What do you think? After all, you are the one who justified using force to take from another (income tax). Maybe a few Greek island resorts would also make good American military bases? Or Bankers resorts? At the end of the day countries are lines on a map and while might may not make right, if you call it tax at least you can pretend it does.


    Welcome to your wonderful immoral world of incompetent idiot-run Centralized Banking Cartels. Where when all else fails you can always steal from Peter to pay Paul. All aboard, next stop Athens.

  19. #19
    Look here, some ungood, unmodern quote I dug up.

    The central bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the Principles and form of our Constitution. I am an Enemy to all banks discounting bills or notes for anything but Coin. If the American People allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the People of all their Property until their Children will wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered.

    -- Thomson Jefferson



    Amazing how some dusty old bullshit from 200 years ago rings just as true today, as it did then.

  20. #20
    Valued Senior Member elte's Avatar
    Posts
    1,150
    I think the lenders were rather predatory, like loan sharks. because they took advantage of indebting the Greek people who don't really understand economics. I've seen economic decline coming for a couple of decades, and if I were a nation that relied so heavily on tourism, I would try to get into another industry before the people stopped visiting.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. By S.A.M. in forum About the Members
    Last Post: 03-15-11, 06:23 PM
    Replies: 46
  2. By Michael in forum The Cesspool
    Last Post: 02-09-11, 12:11 PM
    Replies: 284
  3. By quantum_wave in forum Pseudoscience Archive
    Last Post: 12-07-09, 08:01 PM
    Replies: 272
  4. By MattMarr in forum Pseudoscience Archive
    Last Post: 10-01-06, 12:20 AM
    Replies: 22

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •