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Thread: Alea Jacta Est

  1. #1

    Alea Jacta Est

    Let me get this straight because itís as much an open question as it is an illustration of my understanding of the Uncertainty Principle, that on a sub-atomic level that the mere act of observation affects whatís being observed. I am reminded of the kid who only becomes invisible when no one is looking at him. For generations now, we have been working on the quantum, with machines that cost a sizeable percentage of the national product of a first-world nation.

    Scientists have blasted particles through 27-kilometer long tunnels at microscopic targets. They have focused the violence of solar processes, using the same power that a whole city might generate. On digital screens and supercomputers connected to cloud chambers, they have mapped out the bizarre world of sub-atomic energies. It is a world where sense is always accompanied by nonsense, and where time frequently runs backwards.
    Einstein has proven, that matter and energy are the same and interchangeable. However, it seems that with the quantum and particle physics we have been actually ďwatchingĒ and recording transmutation. Or is that just crackpot thinking?

    Itís more than just the secret of life that alchemy has always sought, its something a lot more frightening. Itís the Secret of Reality.
    Einstein offered his final definition of reality in the Unified Field Theory. It contains every possible answer in such an abundance of equations and deviations that random chance was as good a way of selecting the truth as any.

    Quantum physics is paradoxically more precise. As far as we know, there can only be one answer Ė that there is no answer. If one exists, we have neither the language nor the concepts to define it. Like light, speed, and time and energy, even the truth seems to be Relative.
    Last edited by ScaryMonster; 04-23-12 at 08:35 AM.

  2. #2
    If I had a bit more time (I'm at work right now) I would go through your post line by line and explain why almost every single statement you make is wrong. Instead, I have just moved your post out of physics and maths, because it has nothing to do with any sort of physics I know of.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    it has nothing to do with any sort of physics I know of.
    Well you didn't look very hard, I think "the Uncertainty Principle." was mentioned and of course Quantum Physic's. A quote by Heisenberg or Neils Bohr "that the mere act of observation affects what’s being observed."

    An observation that what's being done with the LHC is kind of like Alchemy IMO. You can disagree.

    Some rather woolly thoughts about Einstein's Unified Field Theory. Which you might agree or disagree with.

    If my post touches on philosophical questions then explain what the point of doing physics is anyway?

    And I believe everything regarding Quantum Physic's and the Unified Field Theory was correct, since I extrapolated the statements based on what Heisenberg,Bohr and Einstein said on this subject from reading their books.

    How does this post not belong in the Physic's and Maths forum? Is that forum just about hacking around with Equations and Theorems. And if it is then it shouldn't be.

    And how is sticking this post in Pseudo-Science going to give me the scientific feed back I crave? Except maybe with a cabalistic arrangement of mystic crystals.

    Frankly this is why people write this forum off, a small group of elitists are riding shotgun over the "Physic's and Maths Forum." and disenfranchising anyone who wants to talk about Physic's and how its defining reality and the paradox's its throwing up that tantalise our imaginations.
    A quality that's sadly lacking in that particular forum at the present.
    Last edited by ScaryMonster; 04-23-12 at 11:25 AM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by ScaryMonster View Post
    If my post touches on philosophical questions then explain what the point of doing physics is anyway?
    The philosophy of physics is the poor, shunned cousin of physics ...



    Other than that - why the title?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by wynn View Post
    The philosophy of physics is the poor, shunned cousin of physics ...



    Other than that - why the title?
    Its a pun on Einstein's comment regarding Quantum Physics," God does not throw dice." Heisenberg and Neils Bohr have been referred to as The Dicemen.

  6. #6
    Valued Senior Member Buddha12's Avatar
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    2,951
    ScaryMonster
    As far as we know, there can only be one answer Ė that there is no answer.
    But there are and we know of many answers that scientists have found out about through their research and development. You need to just read up about nuclear medicine to see answers that help people who are sick.

  7. #7
    Okay, but the phrase Alea iacta est is used to express that things have progressed past the point of no return, and that something will inevitably happen.
    So I'm not sure why you're using this in your OP.

    But perhaps aleatory would be closer?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by wynn View Post
    Okay, but the phrase Alea iacta est is used to express that things have progressed past the point of no return, and that something will inevitably happen.
    So I'm not sure why you're using this in your OP.

    But perhaps aleatory would be closer?
    Nope, you're over thinking this, the Die is cast as I used it means that these guys Heisenberg and Bohr, cast their particular dice and changed how we view reality. Its a pretentious pun but I'm nothing if not pretentious.
    I know how Julius Caesar used it when he crossed the Rubicon and it was to express that things have progressed past the point of no return. But I'm taking a liberty with it.
    Last edited by ScaryMonster; 04-23-12 at 11:22 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Buddha12 View Post
    But there are and we know of many answers that scientists have found out about through their research and development. You need to just read up about nuclear medicine to see answers that help people who are sick.
    I was referring to Quantum physics where the mere act of observation affects whatís being observed. You can't know for sure what is going on at the quantum level because in trying to observe it you'll change it.

  10. #10
    Arguing with a crank - useless AlexG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScaryMonster View Post
    Well you didn't look very hard, I think "the Uncertainty Principle." was mentioned and of course Quantum Physic's. A quote by Heisenberg or Neils Bohr "that the mere act of observation affects whatís being observed."

    An observation that what's being done with the LHC is kind of like Alchemy IMO. You can disagree.

    Some rather woolly thoughts about Einstein's Unified Field Theory. Which you might agree or disagree with.

    If my post touches on philosophical questions then explain what the point of doing physics is anyway?

    And I believe everything regarding Quantum Physic's and the Unified Field Theory was correct, since I extrapolated the statements based on what Heisenberg,Bohr and Einstein said on this subject from reading their books.

    How does this post not belong in the Physic's and Maths forum? Is that forum just about hacking around with Equations and Theorems. And if it is then it shouldn't be.

    And how is sticking this post in Pseudo-Science going to give me the scientific feed back I crave? Except maybe with a cabalistic arrangement of mystic crystals.

    Frankly this is why people write this forum off, a small group of elitists are riding shotgun over the "Physic's and Maths Forum." and disenfranchising anyone who wants to talk about Physic's and how its defining reality and the paradox's its throwing up that tantalise our imaginations.
    A quality that's sadly lacking in that particular forum at the present.
    Using terms and names has nothing to do with physics.

    What you've presented in a not very tasty word salad, with a dressing of nonsense.

  11. #11
    flat Earth skeptic Aqueous Id's Avatar
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    5,326
    Lactucis iactatis est. The salad is tossed.

  12. #12
    Natural Philosopher RJBeery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aqueous Id View Post
    Lactucis iactatis est. The salad is tossed.


    I have to admit that I've apparently always misunderstood the phrase "the die has been cast". I always thought it referred to, ya know, die casting and how one's fate has become essentially set in stone (or in this case, steel)...

  13. #13
    flat Earth skeptic Aqueous Id's Avatar
    Posts
    5,326
    An unfortunate mangling of meaning in translation. Possible alternate translations: the lots have been drawn; the bets have been placed; the game has been played; the deal is done; the jig is up; my goose is cooked; turn out the lights, the party's over, etc.

    It does lead one to ponder the meaning of this thread.

    Possible interpretations:

    Lactuca jacta est. The salad has been tossed.
    Ratio jacta est. The argument has been cast.
    Lactuca acerba est. It's a bitter salad.
    Acetum acidum est. This vinegar is sour.
    O, uvae acidae! O, sour grapes!
    Uvae acidae projectae sunt. Sour grapes have been cast.
    Velocitas magnas uvarum est. The velocity of the grapes is large.
    Velocitas magnas uvarum est. The clusters are moving quickly.
    Observationum jactas sunt. The observations have been cast.
    Observationum uvarum jactas sunt. Observations of clusters have been cast.
    Observationum velocitarum uvarum jactas sunt. Observations of the speeds of the clusters have been cast.
    Observationes sunt jactae non sicut uvarum acerbi sed sicut alea. Observations are not cast as sour grapes but as in a crap shoot.
    Sicut munus fluctus cadit sic cadit intellectus humanus. As collapses the wave function, so collapses the faculty of reason.

    (with apologies for liberal mangling)


  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    Using terms and names has nothing to do with physics.

    What you've presented in a not very tasty word salad, with a dressing of nonsense.


    What terms and name? Alchemy and transmutation has no historical connection with Science and Physics. I suggest you look up Francis Bacon.

    I'm sorry but English terms and names is how most idea's are described, particularly if one is writing a philosophical post. Mathematics has its place but not in what I was trying to say.

    What I presented was a philosophical take on what was actually written in "Physics and Beyond. Encounters and Conversations by Werner Heisenberg."

    You'll find similar sorts of observations throughout that book as well as

    "The Strange Story of Quantum." By B. Hoffman.
    Last edited by ScaryMonster; 04-23-12 at 08:58 PM.

  15. #15
    The problem is much of what you are saying is nonsense. Here are a few examples:

    Quote Originally Posted by ScaryMonster View Post
    It is a world where sense is always accompanied by nonsense, and where time frequently runs backwards.
    There is no accompanied nonsense. Time doesn't run backwards!

    Einstein offered his final definition of reality in the Unified Field Theory. It contains every possible answer in such an abundance of equations and deviations that random chance was as good a way of selecting the truth as any.
    GR is not the final answer. It certainly does not contain every possible answer! Random chance is as good as the solutions to GR field equations - that's absurd.

    Quantum physics is paradoxically more precise. As far as we know, there can only be one answer Ė that there is no answer.
    How do you figure? QM gives excellent answers that are utilized in our everyday world. Like computers for instance.

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