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Thread: Why China don't want to go with Philippines to International Court?

  1. #1
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    Why China don't want to go with Philippines to International Court?

    The Philippines and China have been in a standoff at the Scarborough Shoal since April 10, when Chinese fishing vessels were found there carrying corals, giant clams and live sharks as well as other endangered marine species.

    BRP Gregorio del Pilar, the Philippine Navy’s largest and newest ship, proceeded to the area and was set to arrest the Chinese fishing vessels when two maritime surveillance vessels of China blocked the path of the Gregorio del Pilar.

  2. #2
    China can't accept the legitimacy of an international court. It would open the door to all sorts of prosecutions of China's wrongdoings.

  3. #3
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    If China isn't willing to live under international law, then what can the rest of the nations in the international community do?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Mind Over Matter View Post
    If China isn't willing to live under international law, then what can the rest of the nations in the international community do?
    Stop importing stuff from China.

  5. #5
    Spider how amusing concidering the US refusing to join the ICC

  6. #6
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    Notable nations not part of the ICC are: China, United States, India, Israel, Indonesia.

    There are several others which have signed the Rome Statue, but not ratified it such as Russia

    If we're talking about the ICC, then there's not much controversy here. Why would a nation submit to a court it is not a part of?

    Now if we are talking about the ICJ (Not sure which "International Cout" is the subject here). All UN members are part of it, althought the United States only accepts the courts jurisdiction on a case-by-case basis (ever since they lost the Nicaragua vs US case which rules against the US covert war in Nicaragua). So good luck stopping the US in its present covert wars. Much like the US, I suspect China would probably ignore jurisdiction when the Court finds in favor of the opposing party.

    Long story short: These courts are generally useless.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by wynn View Post
    Stop importing stuff from China.
    Yes - the international community can hurt China by not buying "Made in China" products at the same time we also protect our children and communities from the pervasive and persistent risks of various types of contamination and poor quality of their products.

  8. #8
    More importantly: Buying imported products means that one pays the salary of a worker in some other country, while one's own family members, friends and neighbors may be unemployed or are facing unemployment and thus an existential crisis.

  9. #9
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    Boycotting China-made goods would force exporters to seek alternative markets for their products and prompt industries to get their inputs from other sources.

  10. #10
    The whole import-export system of economy is not sound; it's a bubble that sooner or later bursts.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by wynn View Post
    The whole import-export system of economy is not sound; it's a bubble that sooner or later bursts.
    You have a point. The Philippines posted a $900-million trade deficit with China in 2010. The country imported $7 billion worth of goods from China while shipping a little over $6 billion in exports to China.

    Better to boycott "Made in China" products. Buy our own.

  12. #12
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    Based on applicable international maritime and related laws, China knows that if she petitions the United Nations International Court of Justice or the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea to affirm her dubious claim that she owns everything in the South China Sea aka West Philippine Sea — her chances of winning are about as likely as having a snowfall in the Sahara desert.

    Both Courts have proper jurisdictions to settle sovereignty issues between nations regarding marine territories — such as those concerning the Spratly and Paracel islands.

    Let’s imagine what most likely would happen if China does take her case to the International Court of Justice and the representative of China — let’s call him Mr. Lee — is before the Court headed by the Presiding Judge. Consider this scenario:

    Judge: “Please inform this Court of the basis for your claim that the entire South China Sea aka West Philippine Sea belongs completely to the People’s Republic of China?”

    Mr. Lee: “Thank you, your honor. Our claim is based on the historical fact that this entire area has belonged to us since the Han Dynasty.”

    Judge: “How do you intend to prove your case?”

    Mr. Lee: “I will present to this Court an almost two thousand year old Han Dynasty map that indicates the limits of the Han Dynasty kingdom.”

    Judge: “Let’s assume for purposes of discussion that the Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunei and other surrounding countries were provinces or part of the Han Dynasty during its time even if the map you hold may just actually be a navigational map which does not really define the limits of the Han Dynasty. Now my study of China’s history indicate that the Han Dynasty lasted from 206 B.C. To 220 A.D. Is this correct?”

    Mr. Lee: “Yes your honor.”

    Judge: “I assume Mr. Lee that you are familiar with Alexander the Great, the young Macedonian king who conquered much of the ancient world.”

    Mr. Lee: “I am, your honor.”

    Judge: “At the time of his death in 323 B.C., Alexander’s kingdom included Greece, Syria, Persia now known as Iran, Egypt and a part of India. Are you aware Mr. Lee that Macedonia, Alexander’s country — is now known as the Republic of Macedonia?”

    Mr. Lee: “If you say so your honor.”

    Judge: “Good! You appear to know your history. I assume you are also familiar with the Roman Empire which existed for over a thousand years.”

    Mr. Lee: “Thank you your honor, I do read history.”

    Judge: “You are then aware Mr. Lee that at its height, the Roman Empire included most of Europe and parts of Africa and Asia.”

    Mr. Lee: “I am aware, your honor.”

    Judge: “Now Mr. Lee, since the time of Alexander, the Roman Empire and the Han Dynasty — through the course of time and historical events, various independent countries have emerged in Europe, Africa and Asia — which now have their own respective territories. This is a reality which we all have to accept, wouldn’t you say?”

    Mr. Lee: “We cannot deny reality, your honor.”

    Judge: “Now Mr. Lee, another undeniable reality is that Alexander’s empire, the Roman empire and the Han Dynasty kingdom are no longer existent — am I correct in my observation?

    Mr. Lee: “You are correct, your honor.”

    Judge: “Now Mr.Lee, in all candor, do you seriously believe that if the Republic of Macedonia and the Italian government were to come before this Court and petition us to affirm that they own the territories of these now independent countries because they were once a part of Alexander’s empire or the Roman empire — that we would be persuaded to grant these petitions?”

    Mr. Lee: “I understand what you are getting at, Judge — but most of what we are claiming as ours is marine area and not land.”

    Judge: “The Spratlys and the Paracel islands are not land? Anyway, isn’t it a fact that China is a signatory to the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) which she ratified on July 6, 1996 thereby agreeing to be bound by its provisions — and part of which is that anything within 200 miles from the baseline of a country belongs to that country?

    Mr. Lee: “China did agree to those provisions at a time when it was not yet aware of the far reaching consequences of UNCLOS to her national interests.”

    Judge: “I will not mince my words Mr. Lee. What you mean is that at that time, the world, including China, was not yet aware, that vast deposits of oil and natural gas were to be found within the territorial limits of neighboring countries. Now because of this awareness, even if China knows she is trespassing and violating international law, she is using the coercive might of her size, military or otherwise — to grab these enormous reserves of petrowealth from the territories of her smaller, weaker, poorer neighbors — who badly need these assets to improve the plight of their own people.

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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Asguard View Post
    Spider how amusing concidering the US refusing to join the ICC
    Indeed. And for similar reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by wynn View Post
    Stop importing stuff from China.
    True, that's our only option. But we can't do that either, because almost everything we buy is made in China.

  14. #14
    Please use Sugar Cane Alcohol Billy T's Avatar
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    Post 12´s Judge mentions many old empires that no longer exist and the independent countries now are in parts of their former ruled land to refute China´s claim to all of the South China Sea which is in part based on the great extent of the Han Dynasty kingdom. Clearly, the judge is correct – Just because some territory was once yours, doesn´t mean it forever is.

    Unwittingly the Judge destroys his own argument with these examples. You own an area only so long as you can control it. These new nations in the land of the old empires do own their regions as they control them. Basically it comes down to: “Possession is 9/10 of the law.”

    When a powerful nation like the US or China, does not like the conclusions of some international body (with no military to enforce them) the powerful nation just ignores these ruling, usually adding some argument that the international body does not have jurisdiction.

    The US´s power is declining and China´s is increasing, but US has the military superiority still. Thus is in the process of increasing the strength of it naval forces in the South China Sea. As both US and China have nuclear ICBMs and US navy intelligence has concluded that China´s recently tested (several times more than a year ago) terminal guidance “ICBM” could sink an aircraft carrier with just an HE warhead, even if the carrier is zigzagging at high speed 1800 miles for the launch point, one can be reasonably sure full war between China and US will not occur, even if it remains non-nuclear. (“ICBM” is in quotes as in the end phase of its super sonic descent to the target it is not “ballistic” but closed loop Guided. I.e. a better designation for this new weapon would be ICGM.)

    China would never start a war with the US. Not only is it with less military strength, but it is clearly winning the more than decade old economic war with the US. In less than a decade more, the dollar will be trash; or at least not the world´s reserve currency, and China, not the US, will have the privilege of paying of oil and other imports with printed pieces of paper. Then the US will not be the dominate naval force in the South China Sea. China is building a carrier based “blue water” navy and has sent a modern cruiser into the Med Sea (to evacuate Chinese nationals from Libra weeks before the Brits were able to do the same for their endangered citizens). US navy with little oil available and the nation in depression will mainly be in port.

    SUMMARY: China will use the ancient principle: “Might makes rights.” same as US has done. China will in a decade or so effectively own ALL of the South China Sea. Countries like the Philippines, etc. may be able to share in the development of it natural resources, if China is willing. I.e. the same way it originally came to exist (Greater might) the Han Dynasty kingdom will be reborn.
    Last edited by Billy T; 04-30-12 at 08:43 AM.

  15. #15
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    "We all know that the Philippines is China's inherent territory and the Philippines belongs to Chinese sovereignty, this is an indisputable fact," - He Jia, anchor for China Central Television's (CCTV)

    http://ph.news.yahoo.com/china-tv-cl...063745218.html

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy T View Post
    ... SUMMARY: China will use the ancient principle: “Might makes rights.” same as US has done. China will in a decade or so effectively own ALL of the South China Sea. Countries like the Philippines, etc. may be able to share in the development of it natural resources, if China is willing. I.e. the same way it originally came to exist (Greater might) the Han Dynasty kingdom will be reborn.
    Here is an example:

    "... A vow to boost oil and gas exploration in the South China Sea accompanied the launch of the country’s first domestically manufactured deepwater drilling rig. The semi-submersible Haiyangshiyou 981, with an operating water depth of 3,000 meters, drilled its first well on Wednesday.

    The well, Liwan 6-1-1, is located 320 kilometers to the southeast of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region with a water depth of 1,500 meters. Wang Yilin, chairman of rig operator China National Offshore Oil Corp, said that the rig will also protect the country’s sovereignty and territorial waters. ..."
    From: http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2...t_15252818.htm

    Here so long as it uploads is photo of the ALL Chinese made rig:
    If photo no longer here see it at text link.

  17. #17
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    "... Exchange launched in China to ensure supplies and good value: An iron ore trading platform made its China debut on Tuesday as the world's biggest buyer of the commodity sought to enhance its price-setting influence.

    Trading volume is expected to reach approximately 100 million tons by the end of this year. This will account for about 14 percent of China's annual iron ore imports, said Xu Xu, chairman of the China Chamber of Commerce of Metals, Minerals & Chemicals Importers & Exporters, one of the organizers of the platform.

    Just a few minutes after its official launch, the platform saw its first transaction with 165,000 tons sold for $145 a ton, including freight. This was in line with market expectations, analysts said. ..." From: http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/busines...t_15244125.htm

    For more on US Philippine defense agreements (according to the Philippines spokes person) see:
    http://ph.news.yahoo.com/china-tv-cl...063745218.html

    PS recently they set up a gold exchange mainly for Asian traders, but you can take delivery there too. They claim that in a few years volume and importance for setting price will exceed the exchange in London. China intends to dominate the South China Sea resources and the finances of the countries that border it except for Philippines and Japan, which have strong ties to US.

    PS to Quad: You give me too much credit in post 18. - Of the 18 posts I have made 3. Two of them within the last hour separately as their subjects are hardly related.)
    Last edited by Billy T; 05-09-12 at 08:04 PM.

  18. #18
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    Oh good, another thread has been turned into BillyT's ongoing China blog. I guess the other dozen threads weren't enough.

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