Need some help with dealing with apparent "woo"

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience Archive' started by Alexander1304, Apr 5, 2012.

  1. Alexander1304 Registered Senior Member

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    Hello all,
    We already had discussion about Stephen M Phillips,who claims to find correlation between superstring theory,kaballah and theosophy.You know my deep dislike about the notion of "shadow matter" and "subtle bodies",especially where 2 goes together.This is what Phillips try to reconcile.The reason I opened the new thread is that I don't want to put your attention to WHOLE article(which was the point of previous article).I'll post just one piece of the article,that bothers me right now,and then will post how I try to deal with it,hoping for your help.So,please,don't read the whole article,read only the part 6 is named "The UPA as a 11-brane".
    http://www.smphillips.8m.com/article-2.html

    I must honeslty say that I don't understand much of what he say,because to I'm not so godo in neither superstring theory nor in kaballah/theosophy.But I tried to find some points in what he say,that are clearly speculatuive or not scientific.I will mark in bold the points that bother me and how I try to deal with it

    So,let me start:
    "Up till now, theorists have had to define ordinary and shadow matter as singlet representations of the other’s unified gauge symmetry group because they could not explain why the gauge symmetry group E8 appears twice in the symmetry group describing superstring forces free of quantum anomalies. My theory provides a natural explanation of why these two kinds of matter appear in superstring theory: an 11-brane can wrap around either ten or five curled-up dimensions of the higher, 15-dimensional space. The former creates an ordinary matter superstring; this is the UPA with its ten whorls. The latter creates a shadow matter superstring, which is predicted to comprise five whorls."

    Problem: seems just assertion.Can his claim about "an 11-brane can wrap around either ten or five curled-up dimensions of the higher, 15-dimensional space." be proven? Doesn't it seem as just assertion without evidence?

    Then he goes into long talk about how "ultimate physical atom" corresponds to the "tree of life " of kaballah,but let focus on this:

    "If this correlation between whorls of the UPA and tree levels is correct, then equations 3 and 9 indicate that the shadow matter superstring with five whorls created by the alternative wrapping of a 11-brane around the curled-up dimensions of S×C should have two, not three, major whorls. The significance of this may be that the three major whorls of the UPA correspond to the Supernal Triad of Kether, Chokmah and Binah, or what Theosophists call the three ‘Logoi’ (in Christian parlance — but not in Christian interpretation — the ‘Holy Trinity’ or ‘Three Persons of the Godhead’). This means that the second major whorl corresponds to the Second Logos, the so-called ‘Outpouring’ from which is the life-force that Hindus call ‘prana,’ whilst the interpretation in Section 10 of shadow matter as etheric matter means that the superstring predicted to have five whorls is the basic unit of etheric matter, the pranic energy contained within which may be one of the energy-fields of the shadow matter superstring. Lacking a third major whorl corresponding to the Third Logos, whose Outpouring is Fohat, the shadow matter superstring builds up only the subtle vehicle of physical consciousness — the etheric body, not its outer shell, which is assembled from superstrings of ordinary matter by means of the form-building forces that have their source in Fohat."

    1.If this correlation between whorls of the UPA and tree levels is correct - big if indeed

    2.Lacking a third major whorl corresponding to the Third Logos, whose Outpouring is Fohat, the shadow matter superstring builds up only the subtle vehicle of physical consciousness — the etheric body, not its outer shell

    How can he know that?Doesn't seem that just assertion without solid foundation?

    Also,we can claim that all these claims are unfalsifiable.

    This is how I try to deal with it,trying to find reasons not to take it as something serious and true.

    I know it sounds strange,but it seems like this guy "forces" me to accept what he is writing but I try to "counter" him...

    So,any thoughts?
    Any help will be appreciated
    Thank you
     
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  3. darryl Banned Banned

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    Alexander I have sent you two emails one of which was a very detailed history and discussion about shadow matter and etheric matter. I take it you ignored these emails or they never got to you, becuase you never replied.

    Secondly, like your other posts on the paranormal theories of shadow matter and dualistic biology you are spamming 100s of forums asking about these things on mainstream science forums, first you seem to laugh or say you dislike these things, but why then keep asking about them? -this is fringe material which only a few people are going to know about and the responses that you have recieved are just calling these men such as wasserman or philips crazy or crackpots, is this the response you really are looking for?, one would have to be educated on paranormal matters and unorthodox science to know about these things, the best hope of getting any decent answers is to post questions about these topics on parapsychology or paranormal forums - but even on these forums most folk appear to not be well read in these matters, most folk who study the paranormal are not interested in the theory behind it. What you are describing is some very obscure stuff which only a handful of people in the world know about.

    I happen to know about the work of Stephen M Phillips. The only supporters of Philips is a handful of American/British Theosophists, I have attended lectures in the past at a Theosophical house, so I understand some of his ideas. He has some wild claims even for a Theosophist.

    His work all comes down to the extrasensory sessions with Charles Leadbeater and Annie Besant. They both practiced yoga and meditation and claimed that through correct training the individual could shrink himself into a microscopic atom and actually observe by remote reviewing what is inside the atom and see the nature of subatomic particles and even the behavior of quarks. These are wild claims!

    These ESP sessions of Leadbeater and Besant were published in an old book called Occult Chemistry. In this book they lay out their observations.

    However since Leadbeater died, nobody has ever replicated his remote reviewing of atoms.

    Philips has written a whole book on the topic called "Extrasensory Perception of Quarks" - However the book is a con. In the book Philips pretends he is an ordinary physicist investigating the claims of the Theosophists, but all the time he has been a Theosophist and further research shows his book was published by a Theosophist publisher.

    Occult Chemistry proposes that the structure of chemical elements can be assessed through clairvoyant observation with the microscopic vision of the third eye which can be accessed after yoga training, the controversial nature of this book is the observations themselves. According to some researchers the atomic structures determined and confirmed by conventional science look nothing like what the Occult Chemists claimed to see but Philips and a handful of Theosophists such as Ernest Lester Smith say otherwise, Philips in his book for example points out how Leadbeater has known things about atoms and molecules through his clairvoyant sessions even before science has discovered the nature of these things, he thus comes to the conclusion that Leadbeaters clairvoyant remote reviewing sessions were genuine, Philips also denies the fraud hypothesis (its well known that Leadbeater on occasions has used trickery in psychic matters).

    Now regarding the link of Philips that you cite. This webpage is nothing more than devout Blavatsky worship and to the average reader they will not have a clue what is going on, or what it is about!. Theosophy a set of metahysical teachings and its followers take the readings of Blavatsky as divine truth, they take her readings as occult truth and are not interested in mainstream science. Blavatsky did not believe in just the physical plane of existence, she extended many other planes into a complex metaphysical esoteric cosmology with etheric matter, astral planes, mental, casual etc etc. These planes and realms will be hard to take in from a beginner to this subject, you need to spend much time reading into it to know what it is all about.

    For a overview of the subject, I suggest reading the Plane (esotericism) article on wikipedia. In short there are 7 planes of existence, and this is why Philips is attempting to unite the Kabbalistic Tree of Life with these planes. This is not a new idea if I can remember correctly Samael Aun Weor was also doing the same thing.

    But note how none of these planes are accepted by mainstream science apart from the physical. All of the other planes come from occult or spiritualist schools of thought, thus are gonna be rejected, shunned and ignored by most scientists.

    You claim you need help debunking this "woo" but none of this stuff of Theosophy is accepted in conventional science, so from the standpoint of mainstream conventional science there is nothing to debunk. I would also be very suprised if you get a response from someone who actually has read into the claims of Philips and the Theosophists. Look up Theosophy they have a membership of less than 12,000 people.

    There are many claims from Theosophists they are mostly very far out indeed. Theosophists claim that gnomes and gremlin like creatures live in etheric realms and help the evolution of plants on earth. These are some beautiful ideas, but will be mostly seen as nothing more than a fanasty when it comes to reality.
     
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  5. Alexander1304 Registered Senior Member

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    Thanks,Darryl.I 've gotten only one mail from You,sorry there was time for response.And thanks for Your postinig.I agree with You,it is not easy to discuss Phillips on forums.But,I tooko extract for his article where he discribes the superstring structure of UPA.I emailed to few physicists with asking them whether what he described is in accordance with mainstream view of superstring theory,or more like his speculation.The answer was definite - it is own interpretation of the things,so at least in this regard I got informative answer.For to answer this,people need not to know theosophy,only superstring theory.

    I also e-mailed this article to paranormal researcher Alan Gauld,which is very famous investigatore.He replied - "the chap is off his trolley.Don't waste good time on him"
     
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  7. darryl Banned Banned

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    I did try and attach an email to you about shadow matter, you may not of got it sorry about that, I will try and resend it to you at some point, Philips however is totally wrong about everything... for example "etheric matter" does not exist outside of Theosophy, there is no scientific evidence for it, and I noticed Philips is critical of Wassermann. Basically there is another researcher who has taken the theory of Wassermann and the work of folk like Persinger on electromagnetism further and merged the idea into a plasma theory for life after death, I have also been working on a similar theory but the author and book who has taken the shadow matter theory further is called Our Invisible Bodies: Scientific Evidence for Subtle Bodies by Jay Alfred. The author proposes a physical theory for the subtle body. You might want to check it out however in one chapter the author seems to believe in the occult chemistry of Leadbeater

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    disapointing about this bit, but the rest of the book is perhaps one of the best defence of a physical theory of the soul or afterlife, the author rejects spiritualistic interpretation.

    I have also spoken to Alan Gauld, sadly Gauld is a dualist who seems to accept the reality of some victorian mediumship claims and to me this ruins some of his credibility on this matters, though his book mediumship & survival is a classic in the field, he has also coproduced a book concluding the mind and brain are separate based on NDE and mystical experiences. Gauld also seems to reject physical theories of the paranormal. If you want to see many theories for paranormal, check out the parapsychology wikipedia article, I noticed a theory section has been recently added.

    by the way your thread about dualistic biology was very interesting and this is something I am currently looking into, so perhaps I will leave a detailed reply on that thread at some point.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2012
  8. Alexander1304 Registered Senior Member

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    173
    Hi Darryl,
    When the first time you mentioned Dark Plasma I already knew it will come to Jay Alfred

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    .
    I've read his book Our Invisible Bodies and found it interesting,although some ideas seem to far-fetched to me.For example: "many bodies - many universes".Also he may reject spiritualism,but unlike physicalists,he seems to affirm reincarnation,and mentions Stevenson.Also,he mentions Deepak Chopra and Rupert Sheldrake,that always seemed suspicious to me,and by the way,they are NOT materialists/naturalists.Also,when describing the death process he mentions Leadbeater.Also,mentions such things as "chakras","nadi" ,"etheric" which are usually not in the language of physicalists.

    Here is from the book review:
    "According to the author a human being consists of a physical bio-molecular body closely associated with higher and lower energy ethereal bodies, higher energy and lower energy astral bodies and higher energy and lower energy causal bodies.page113 The etheric doubles may support the tissues and biochemical activities in the bio-molecular body and gives it structural integrity. The astral bodies inhabit the astral universe which has a space-time signature of four spatial dimensions and one time dimension. The causal bodies inhabit the causal universe which has a space-time signature of five spatial dimensions and one time dimension. Higher energy bodies are more mind- like. The causal bodies become equivalent to the spiritual body of the faith traditions."
    http://ezinearticles.com/?Beyond-the-Physical-Brain&id=1968850
    Also,look here,from the book: "This is the ‘second’ death. The first death is the death of the physicalbiomolecular
    body. The second death is the death of the physical-etheric body."

    This is very common with what F.W.Myers "reported" via medium Gerladine Cummins

    But lets back to Phillips for the moment.He may be critical of Wassermann but in one regard he seems to agree with him,it is in interpretation of "shadow matter" as "etheric matter".But the difference is - Wasserman used this concept to explain paranormal stuff/possible survival,and Phillips used it to describe theosophica concept of etheric double,who is NOT repsonsible for the paranormal,and dies together with physical body,see here,for example:
    http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/e/etheric_double.html

    What I found intriguing,that in personal correspondence Phillips told that he agreed with Wasserman about shadoe matter as etheric matter,since his research indicated it very strongly.But what kind of reseach?What SCIENTIFIC research can be done on invisible substance?I've read Phillips,chapter 6 in the above article,and he says his work shows how mathematics of shadow interactions are encoded in kaballistic "tree of life",base on that he concludes that "shadow matter" is "etheric matter".Again,it seems to me not research,but one man speculation with subjective conclusion
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2012
  9. darryl Banned Banned

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    125
    Thank you very much for sharing this information with me. I have not actually read all of the book only some of the chapters online, I just did some more research and it appears Mr Alfred is an Indian Theosophist himself! Or atleast that is what some website says. He claims he is developing a physical theory for the soul etc, but what he is actually taking some of his info from is occult theosophists ideas and trying to merge them into physics.

    I have been searching for years for materialist theory for life after death, survival of consciousness etc, It appears Shadow matter is one of the only books which exists on the topic. Most parapsychologists shun material theories, they are seeking the spiritual instead.

    Well philips is wrong, etheric matter is not shadow matter, shadow matter is a scientific hypothesis atleast whilst etheric is not science. I am very skeptical about this "etheric double", the idea of etheric matter pops up not only in Theosophy but 1000s of occult books, from Steiner to Weor. Now heres the things none of these occultists claim this etheric matter can actually be detected by science, instead the individual must practice clairvoyance to see it.

    Exactly, how can we use the scientific method which only deals with the physical to study an "invisible" totally nonphysical "substance"? The answer philips says it to become "clairvoyant" and train out mind or perception etc to visualise the spiritual dimensions or worlds. Again this is not a recent idea, Steiner has published many books on the topic. The problem is that these ideas will never fit in with physical science, and these claims will never be confirmed. It appears Philips claims come from personal experience and interpretation, he rejects objective repeatable science.
     
  10. darryl Banned Banned

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    Alexander, it is now 100% clear to me that Jay Alfred is a Theosophist.

    I read a recent review of his book:
    What Alfred is trying to do is update Theosophy into physical terms. The book is very interesting but is ruined by its theme relying on the work of Charles Leadbeater.
     
  11. Alexander1304 Registered Senior Member

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    173
    Thanks,Darryl.Both Alfred and Phillips are physicists.But well,when I read physicists who deal with just physics,and not blending them with occult,it is as they write in differnet language.I"m ye to find any physicist-occultist appear in prestige,peer-reviewed SCIENTIFIC publishing.

    It seems that physicists who are theosophists/occultists simply tend to "tune" physics to their own agenda

    And Phillips conclusion about identification of "shadow matter" with "etheric matter" based oh his "work" showing how mathematics of "shadow itnteraction are encoded in Tree Of Life of Kabbalah.But this is only his personal interpretation/speculation.Look here where it starts here: "If this correlation between whorls of the UPA and tree levels is correct..."
    And too many mystical expressions: "Fohat","pranic energy","Third Logos"...
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2012
  12. Alexander1304 Registered Senior Member

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    173
    Well,the substance is physicall(shadow matter) but yes,totally invisible.Phillips wrote this article around 2000,and stated that theoretical studies of shadow matter are still in it infancy.Now,today it seems that NO progress has been done in this area,and the concept itself is largely abandoned in physics.Moreover,Phillips all the times connects superstring theory wih occult,and shadow matter is part of superstring theory,but it appears that superstring theory itself is NOT without its problem,there is griwing skeppticism about it,and even such superstring stars as Ed Witte say: "We don't yet understand the core idea".My physics "guru" Robert Thomas Foot,who writes a lot about "mirror matter"(which is not exactly as "shadow matter") told me in e-mail :
    "String theory is a very challenging topic...nobody knows for sure if its real progress or not....it makes no firm experimental predictions, so for now, its probably safe not to think too much about it."
     
  13. Believe Happy medium Valued Senior Member

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    The entire article is woo.
     
  14. Alexander1304 Registered Senior Member

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    Glad to see someone with such impression
     
  15. Believe Happy medium Valued Senior Member

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    Most of the time you can't talk sense into these people (just look up posts by Pincho Paxton or Reiku here on sciforums and you will see what I mean). They just plug there ears when you try. I would just give it up personally.
     
  16. darryl Banned Banned

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    yes I agree, wassermann in his book shadow matter describes the nature of this type of matter, there is nothing mystical about it, this matter still has physical properties, but as wassermann explains we have not directly observed it yet, so what he is going on is indirect evidence. Now read the chapter in shadow matter about survival of consciousness after death, and wassermann concludes that memories/identity survives and goes into a shadow matter world, but what then does this shadow matter look like? a world of shadow matter? This idea absolutely intrigues me, wassermann also talks briefly about people having shadow matter bodies and eyes to see and move and recognize eachother - but he doesnt go into enough detail on this. you need to get hold of wassermann's sequel book which describes the nature of the afterlife and near death experiences, i have ordered it.
     
  17. Alexander1304 Registered Senior Member

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    Wassermann's ideas didn't get popularity so far,and Phillips comes into "shadow matter" as "etheric matter" through how he thiks it is encoded in kaballah.
    Let me know your impression about Wassermann's sequel book,I tried to see it in the library,but couldn't find

    "so what he is going on is indirect evidence"

    Indirect evidence is a very vague notion.How many people scientifically-oriented will accept it as the evidence?

    "but what then does this shadow matter look like?"
    That's the FIRST question that should be addressed.Even many proponents of strng theory(and shadow matter is part of this theory) haven't heard about it,it is still hypothetical,and nobody knows whether it exists,and if yes - what it is like.
    I aksed some phycisists about it,and instead of shadow matter they replied about dark matter
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2012
  18. Believe Happy medium Valued Senior Member

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    Indirect evidence is fine actually. We know that blackholes (cant see um but their gravity makes it obvious), darkmatter(whatever it is, same reason as a black hole), and many subatomic particles(through the products of their break down) are there due to indirect evidence rather then though direct observation. However, the evidence for something has to exist outside of your own head.
     
  19. Alexander1304 Registered Senior Member

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    So,what about the "shadow matter" then?It can be that it is just wassermann who thinks that psychic phenomena is indirect evidence for the shadow matter.And again,to build solid theory on something that is hypothetical or not properly studied is a very risky business anyway
     
  20. Believe Happy medium Valued Senior Member

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    Except phychic phenomena has only be disproven (never proven) in every single test ever conducted on it.
     
  21. Alexander1304 Registered Senior Member

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    Well,I'd say it is arguable.There are some article on the Internet that say that it exists.But it doesn't take away,in my opinion,the fact that
    1.theoretical studies of shadow matter today is still in its infancy,or were abandoned
    2.wassermann's explanationof psychic phenomena is very speculative,here are some points from review.
    wasserman statese that shadow matter body/brain is capable of replicating itself like DNA but from the review: "DNA molecules of course have a lot of help from other molecular machinery in such duplication, and the mind boggles at what machinery would have to be postulated to account for the duplication of an SMB"

    About precognition: "He devotes a mere three pages to it, but what a three pages they are. He proposes that shadow matter copies of the entire Earth are continually being manufactured. These copies then shrink to a small size, enabling them to interact with the brain of percipients. Because time is accelerated on these shrunken copies of the Earth, a percipient may be able to peer into a future state of the world when he interacts with one of these miniature copies of the planet."

    I wonder how many people would take his claims about psychic phenomena seriously after that...
     
  22. darryl Banned Banned

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    You want to be careful about reviews on the internet, the above was taken from douglas strokes? or was it stephen braude?, they both are charlatans and both even have low respect even in the parapsychology field. The man has no science education whatsover he appears to be a philosopher and a strong dualist he also appears to be religious, he is biased against material theories so of course he will be opposed to shadow matter.

    Wassermann in one of his nature publications strongly attacked dualism and this is why strokes doesn't like wassermann or his theories, he shouldnt be reviewing books becuase he has a strong bias, it seems strokes reviews anything metaphysical with a positive attitude but when it comes to any material theory he opposes it. I have never seen a proper review of wassermann's works, I might do a full review of both books at some point after I have read the sequel. Regarding shadow matter/mirror matter there are actually a few books on the topic, especially from cosmology, recent scientists seem to be linking it with dark matter of the universe. But I agree, you don't hear much about it compared to the other stuff out there and within parapsychology wassermann is a lone figure, it is rare to find a "mechanist materialist" as wassermann calls himself accepting psi and life after death. I have also seen criticism of wassermann where some have said he was not a physicist and that he was only a biologist, but further research shows wassermann was a phd in physics and biology. what needs to happen is more research needs to be done into shadow matter, and we need some further observations, that day will probably come, but at the moment not much going on with it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2012
  23. Alexander1304 Registered Senior Member

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    Darryl,I disagree with you on few points.
    First,why you personally attack D.Stokes and S.Braude?Where did you take idea that they are charlatans?I don't get it.
    In regard materialism/dualism I prefer to keep an open mind,and Alan Gauld,no matter who his is(dualist or whatever) is one of my most respectful persons.Have you read Stephen Braude's "Immortal remains"?It considered to be one of the best books on the topic,and someone regards it as continuation of Alan Gauld's "Mediumship and survival".
    You also seem biased.Just because someone comes with materialistic theory,doesn't mean it is true.And it doesn't tak away that wassermann's theory is full of speculations.It's not invention of Stokes that wassermann talks about self-replication of shadow matter body,or shadow matter copies of earth shrinking.
    Regarding shadow matter itself,yes,there is no much talk today ,and nobody knows if anything will come in the future
     

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