US's economy has fully recovered?

[Michael]

Sure it is.

In fact this is how you referred to Americans in just this post: Nice numbed brain-dead ignorant obedient cattle

Your arguments against progressive income taxes are sophmoric, tedious and ultimately boring.

How do you suppose the North Korean leadership see their Citizens? When they drag those trying to flee into China back into forced labour... do you think its because they care about them?

NO.
They see them as Cattle.

Just as I'd argue the Plutocrats running the USA see you and I. Cattle to be milked and slaughtered for meat.

As I pointed out previously, it's not your money if you have already used or benefited indirectly from services that the government has provided. You can't go into a store and eat a candy bar then object when the cashier demands payment, saying that it's already in your stomach and so it's "your food".

OK, I agree it's not your money if you have purchased something. Then it's someone else's money.

But, don't tell me you think that IF you just so happen to be born in the USA and use a road - you're owned by the State? It's not like you had a choice in the mater. Just because someone is born into Slavery, doens't mean Slavery is by default "right". Hey you there boy, you were born a Slave and look at all these things the State has provided you: A hut, rows of cotton, a job picking it, and some gruel. That that's worth more than a lifetime worth of your productivity.

Believe it or not, the State is selling you into a type of debt Slavery - right now, as we speak. The Goldies are getting richer and you, whether you know it or not, ARE getting poorer.

adoucette:

How does arguing against progressive income taxes equate to a "hatred of all things American"?

Please explain.

I don't "Hate America". What? I hate the dirt? The trees?

When Arthur uses metaphor it's fine, yet when I use it then it's not fine.

I never said that it did James.

It was descriptive comments like this that created that impression:

a fat immoral apathetic society that's so bass-arse-backwards they think "stealing" is moral and like wolves around a goat vote who's going to get what.

Our society IS becoming more immoral. Most Americans are obese and they are ignorant.

Do I HATE them for it? No. I worry about it TTYTT.

WMD in Iraq?
WMD in Libya?
Afghanistan? Syria? Iran? .... yeah, there's a problem in the USA.

Bailing out the Too Big Too Fail was the last straw. There's no turning it around now. You think the Economy is recovered? No way. Not even by a LOOOOONG shot. Our deficit rose at the same time (which means we were less productive) and thus the types of jobs were unproductive service. We went much deeper into debt.

Hey, that's good for my camp - it's one step closer to Ending the Federal Reserve monetary system. It doesn't make me happy to watch the collapse of the USA. Like a slow motion train wreck. This one will take generations...

[adoucette]

How do you suppose the North Korean leadership see their Citizens? When they drag those trying to flee into China back into forced labour... do you think its because they care about them?

NO.
They see them as Cattle.

Just as I'd argue the Plutocrats running the USA see you and I. Cattle to be milked and slaughtered for meat.

And yet we can leave any time we want to.

Our society IS becoming more immoral. Most Americans are obese and they are ignorant.

No, clearly our laws over the last century or so indicate we are more moral, not less.

No, most Americans are not obese.

No, more Americans have higher degrees than ever before.

No, trade balance is not an indication of productivity, we are more productive than ever.

It's your perceptions which are off.

[iceaura]

Both groups think they are right. Both groups look at history and find precedents to support their beliefs.



SO, how then do you then figure out what to do?
That's when your personal internalized philosophy comes in.

If your personal philosophy includes respect for physical fact and sound argument,

and you have the gumption as well as the ability to check on the claims and reasoning of the "two" sides,

then you can discover that side #1 is correct, and side #2 is full of shit.

Likewise, you can deal with this kind of juvenilia in a couple o sentences:

(1) If money is your property no one has the right to take it from you. Doing so is stealing.
(2) Initiating force against someone who has done nothing to you is immoral.
(3) The role of government is to uphold the Law NOT to rig the economy. Not to steal from Peter to pay Paul.

1) Money is not wholly "your property" - look at the picture on the bill: do you see your own face? The guy who pointed out that what is Ceasar's may be legitimately claimed by Ceasar was not blowing smoke.

2) Initiating force against someone who has taken from the common kitty and reneged on the standing agreement to pay the kitty back is perfectly moral - some say that societal punishment of betrayal is the foundation of morality.

3) The role of my government is as follows:

- form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, - - -

[The Esotericist]

In the third quarter of 2011, there were 6.1 million empty homes for sale or rent, according to the Census Bureau, or 4.6% of all U.S. homes.

The Census Bureau? What a politicized inaccurate piece of political propaganda. That's about as inaccurate as a blind man pissing at a urinal. The government will make it say what ever it wants to say. I have a dozen friends that never even saw a census form or a worker. Get real. Hell, neither did I.

Didn't you know? The last census was taken away from the congressional oversight, and put directly under the authority of the administrative branch for political purposes.

http://www.discovery.org/a/9071

Instead, the real issue is who directs the Census, the pros or the pols. If it is the pols, you may well get an order to adjust the Census count with samples and modeling. That will take a presidential order to over-ride the scientific consensus of statisticians at the Bureau and elsewhere.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/census-2010-constitutional-coup/

But I suspect there is more in the offing. I am not a member of the Libertarian party, nor do I back their positions on drugs, foreign policy and the like, but I agree with the statement of their chairman, William Redpath:

"The Libertarian Party believes that the federal government's current census procedures are unconstitutional, unnecessary, and too expensive. We believe that the census is constitutionally limited to collecting only one piece of information about each residence: the number of persons living in it. We urge Congress to change the census laws to comply with this constitutional limitation.

"The U.S. Constitution empowers Congress to provide for a census in order to apportion Representatives correctly. The Constitution does not empower Congress to use a census for any other purpose. There is no need for Congress to collect additional information such as names, races, ages, sexes, or home ownership status. Unfortunately, the federal government wants to use the additional information to fine tune its control over the lives and money of the American people.

"The 2010 census is expected to cost over $14 billion. A recent report from the Inspector General of the Department of Commerce indicates that preparations for the 2010 census have already been filled with waste and bloat. A proper census, limited to just a headcount, would be far less expensive.

UPDATE: I failed to mention that I received two Census forms:

[The Esotericist]

2) Initiating force against someone who has taken from the common kitty and reneged on the standing agreement to pay the kitty back is perfectly moral - some say that societal punishment of betrayal is the foundation of morality.

. . . and yet . . . how is that "common kitty" created? Is it created by the inputs of it's citizens voluntarily? Or is it created by the use of force at the end of the barrel of a gun? Morality my ass. Compulsory State education has conditioned your mind to its' own ends methinks.

And where did the funds for that indoctrination come from? Voluntary contributions? I think not. That too was forcibly removed from citizens. What a neat scheme. Force citizens to pay for their own indoctrination. Yuck yuck yuck yuck.


That no government, so called, can reasonably be trusted, or reasonably be supposed to have honest purposes in view, any longer than it depends wholly upon voluntary support.
~Lysander Spooner

[The Esotericist]

(I'm guessing that public schools never taught you who Lysander Spooner was or why he was famous? Not exactly what the STATE/financial/corporate establishment would call your great American founding hero, eh?)

"Spooner also believed that government restrictions on issuance of private money made it inordinately difficult for individuals to obtain the capital on credit to start their own businesses, thereby putting them in a situation where "a very large portion of them, to save themselves from starvation, have no alternative but to sell their labor to others" and those who do employ others are only able to afford to pay "far below what the laborers could produce, [than] if they themselves had the necessary capital to work with."[26] Spooner said that there was "a prohibitory tax --- a tax of ten per cent. --- on all notes issued for circulation as money, other than the notes of the United States and the national banks" which he argued caused an artificial shortage of credit, and that eliminating this tax would result in making plenty of money available for lending[26] such that: "All the great establishments, of every kind, now in the hands of a few proprietors, but employing a great number of wage labourers, would be broken up; for few or no persons, who could hire capital and do business for themselves would consent to labour for wages for another."[27]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysander_Spooner

[The Esotericist]

No, clearly our laws over the last century or so indicate we are more moral, not less.

Laws don't mean shit. We have more of them than we ever have. More to repress, more to restrict freedom. The only ones that are ever really enforced are the ones to lock up and punish the poor. More now than ever, the rich and the powerful are looting and destroying the nation as its trustees turn a blind eye because of their corruption.

Some steadfast friends of GATA keep sending notes about such stuff to members of the U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission in the hope that the commission's 3-year-old (or is it 4 now?) supposed investigation of the silver market will report evidence of manipulation, and we hate to discourage them. But the delay of the investigation signifies plainly enough that the CFTC knows that what is going on in silver (and gold) is essentially a U.S. government operation implemented through a de-facto U.S. government agency, JPMorganChase & Co., and the commission just can't do anything about it. Not just gold and silver price suppression but commodity price suppression generally long has been U.S. government policy.

Indeed, it's miraculous that the toasted remnants of CFTC Commissioner Bart Chilton, who got GATA's Bill Murphy and Adrian Douglas into the commission's landmark hearing on silver on March 25, 2010, putting the silver suppression scheme on the public record and sparking the metal's sharp ascent, haven't been discovered in a Bessemer converter somewhere. Anybody who wants to know about the suppression of precious metals prices and the purposes behind it already knows or easily can find out. The bigger question is who dares acknowledge it and who doesn't.

When it comes to the world monetary system, the U.S. government is simply corrupt. As it is a matter of ruling people without their consent, empire can't help being otherwise. If Americans want to protest this, they should protest to their elected officials, their members of Congress and the president, and maybe to the news media -- there are still a few honest and intelligent people in those places. Don't bother complaining to the CFTC. It can't do more than it -- or, rather, one of its members -- already has done.

http://www.gata.org/node/11159

[Saint]

Has Greece overcome its financial crisis?
Now it seems that the media is silent about the crisis of Greece.

[joepistole]

Has Greece overcome its financial crisis?
Now it seems that the media is silent about the crisis of Greece.

A couple of minor points, one Greece was never the problem. The problem was a potential European liquidity trap (i.e. banking collapse) triggered by a Greek default or a default by any of the other distressed EU nations.

The problem was the European banking system not Greece. Two, Greece is working through it's problems and has defaulted on some of its debt and will likely default again. But in spite of that, the world still exists; goods and services are still being rendered; and global financial collapse has been avoided because the European central bank has reversed course and is now adopting monetary policies/strategies similar to those implemented by the US Federal Reserve during our liquidity crisis.

[Saint]

Will Greece be able to pay back all its "discounted" debt?

[joepistole]

Will Greece be able to pay back all its "discounted" debt?

I doubt it.

[Michael]

And yet we can leave any time we want to.

Leave where exactly? The entire world is run by plutocrats each milking their respective Cattle's labor while creating "money" out of their arses and trading it with one another.

You MIGHT be able to leave the USA - or you might not. It's not as easy as it seems.


I agree that SOME individuals are more productive. But as a nation we are relatively LESS productive. Which is why we now run trade deficits with Asia.

I've read making a hamburger at McDonalds is tallied in as "Production". As if putting a patty on bread is the same as making a car Which is why I'd be a bit dubious when looking at official figures.

[Michael]

1) Money is not wholly "your property" - look at the picture on the bill: do you see your own face? The guy who pointed out that what is Ceasar's may be legitimately claimed by Ceasar was not blowing smoke.

Do you know what money is? That USD you're holding on to is a Promissory Note. It's a promise to be paid "money" at some point in the future. Which you of course never are - and why when you redeem it for something in 10 years time it's worth 25% LESS then when it was given to you.

Money holds an account of your labor. Your labor is YOUR LABOR. Got it? We don't own slaves anymore. You own your own body and it's labor. No one has a right to your labor. No one can force you to work. It's that simple.

So, yes, money is YOUR money as it accounts your labor of which is YOURS.

2) Initiating force against someone who has taken from the common kitty and reneged on the standing agreement to pay the kitty back is perfectly moral - some say that societal punishment of betrayal is the foundation of morality.

Tell me how living on a Farm and growing apples YOURSELF is "taking from the common 'Kitty'? No. You do NOT get to avail yourself of the farmers apples when he trades it for oranges. If you want an apple you must trade for it. Sneaking onto the Farm and stealing apples is stealing. Voting yourself the Farmers apples is stealing. Stealing IS immoral as I'm sure your mother taught you growing up.

3) The role of my government is as follows:

When you take a quote out of context you loose all meaning. A flowery line from the US Constitution can just as easily have come anywhere and mean, literally anything, to anyone at anytime. Here's a section from the Communist Manifesto I wonder with how much of it your agree?

One fact is common to all past ages, viz., the exploitation of one part of society by the other. No wonder, then, that the social consciousness of past ages, despite all the multiplicity and variety it displays, moves within certain common forms, or general ideas, which cannot completely vanish except with the total disappearance of class antagonisms.
In the most advanced countries, the following will be pretty generally applicable:
1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of wastelands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equable distribution of the population over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c., &c.’

[Michael]

So iceaura? How many ticks on the Communist Manifesto sound good to you? How do you go about deciding which are moral and which are not moral? You said you have a "Philosophy". OK, which one of those items fit in your life Philosophy? As I take initiation of violence as being immoral (a central tenant to my world view) many of these items are immoral. While admirable, they will have to be tackled using a system that doesn't involve the initiation of violence against innocent people.

You like Apples. Either freely trade for them or grow your own. No, you don't get to steal them. That's immoral - as I'm sure your mother and/or others taught you as a child.

[joepistole]

Do you know what money is? That USD you're holding on to is a Promissory Note. It's a promise to be paid "money" at some point in the future. Which you of course never are - and why when you redeem it for something in 10 years time it's worth 25% LESS then when it was given to you.

Money holds an account of your labor. Your labor is YOUR LABOR. Got it? We don't own slaves anymore. You own your own body and it's labor. No one has a right to your labor. No one can force you to work. It's that simple.

So, yes, money is YOUR money as it accounts your labor of which is YOURS.

I suggest you look at your currency again. It is not a promissory note. It is a Federal Reserve Note. There is no implicit or explicit promise of future payment.

Two, you exchange labor for money. So the labor rendered for pay is no longer yours.

Tell me how living on a Farm and growing apples YOURSELF is "taking from the common 'Kitty'? No. You do NOT get to avail yourself of the farmers apples when he trades it for oranges. If you want an apple you must trade for it. Sneaking onto the Farm and stealing apples is stealing. Voting yourself the Farmers apples is stealing. Stealing IS immoral as I'm sure your mother taught you growing up.

I don't see how this is relevant or what you are trying to say.

When you take a quote out of context you loose all meaning. A flowery line from the US Constitution can just as easily have come anywhere and mean, literally anything, to anyone at anytime. Here's a section from the Communist Manifesto I wonder with how much of it your agree?

Not necessarily.

[Michael]

I suggest you look at your currency again. It is not a promissory note. It is a Federal Reserve Note. There is no implicit or explicit promise of future payment.

A bank note is a promissory note. Which is part of the problem with using a purely debt-based monetary system backed by labor. One could think of it as a kind of slavery, debt slavery.

What does China get in return for buying American bonds? I mean, what ultimately backs up the worth in those bonds?

Two, you exchange labor for money. So the labor rendered for pay is no longer yours.

Oh, it looks like you answered it here. Labor. The Chinese are getting your children's and probably your grandchildren's labor. I personally find this repugnant. It's called stealing.

But you don't see it that way do you Joe? Which is why that second part makes no sense to you. You don't see how taking from the future's production is stealing from them. How selling their labor is slavery.

Don't worry, you have the system you wanted. We're nearing $20 Trillion in debt and, unless the Federal Reserve starts charging negative interest and really ratchets up the thievery, the party will end and people will be poorer.


I'm sure if you were to tick off things in the Communist Manifesto you agreed with, there'd be more there you agree with than disagree with. You don't really 'get it'. You're still stuck thinking Democrats are Angels and Republicans are Devils and the Nanny State is Good and, gee, now that Obama does it, maybe the War Welfare is too.

Two completely different ways of seeing humanity and the role of government. One treats the Citizens like dumb beasts, sells their future labor to other nations, and generally like to rule from the top and the other sees Citizens as above the government, the government as (at best) civil servants to be trusted with as little power as possible given their access to initiation of force against fellow Citizens. When you have a douche bag at the Federal Reserve setting interest rates, you can not know the true value of money. On a whim they can raise them or lower them, they can monetize debt or dry up credit.

That's called a Farm Joe, you live on it - apparently happily so. As they say: Ignorant is Bliss.

[Captain Kremmen]

Here is the inflation adjusted NYSE chart from 1966 to present:



We seem to have gone from a fairly stable period, from 1966 to 1995.
Then Boom-Bust, Boom-Bust, start of Boom. This graph goes up to 2011, and there has been a good rise since.

If things proceed along the lines of the two previous boom-busts, then we are now in the biggest boom ever, perhaps another 2000 points to go, which will be followed by an enormous bust.

When will we stop leaving our futures in the hands of greedy speculators?

[joepistole]

A bank note is a promissory note. Which is part of the problem with using a purely debt-based monetary system backed by labor. One could think of it as a kind of slavery, debt slavery.

A banknote is currency. It is not debt. Please Michael explain how holding a banknote/currency is a debt. In the case of the US, a dollar is only worth what individuals are willing to pay for it. It has nothing at all to do with debt.

What does China get in return for buying American bonds? I mean, what ultimately backs up the worth in those bonds?

It gets interest which is determined by free market forces as US debt is auctioned and traded on free markets.

Oh, it looks like you answered it here. Labor. The Chinese are getting your children's and probably your grandchildren's labor. I personally find this repugnant. It's called stealing.

No, this is just right wing hype/nonsense. Additionally, you don't seem to be able to understand the difference between an individual with a finite life span and a nation with an indefinate lifespan. Government is an ongoing enterprise.

But you don't see it that way do you Joe? Which is why that second part makes no sense to you. You don't see how taking from the future's production is stealing from them. How selling their labor is slavery.

No I don't see things through eyeglasses of ignorance, fear and hype. As previously mentioned, you don't seem to understand the differences between individuals and states.

Additionally, we are not stealing anything from anyone if we appropriately manage our resources.

Don't worry, you have the system you wanted. We're nearing $20 Trillion in debt and, unless the Federal Reserve starts charging negative interest and really ratchets up the thievery, the party will end and people will be poorer.

Nice hype for the ignorant, but not much it theway of truth.

I'm sure if you were to tick off things in the Communist Manifesto you agreed with, there'd be more there you agree with than disagree with. You don't really 'get it'. You're still stuck thinking Democrats are Angels and Republicans are Devils and the Nanny State is Good and, gee, now that Obama does it, maybe the War Welfare is too.

More fear and nonsense Michael. No, I am stuck in this thing called responsible fiscal management.

Two completely different ways of seeing humanity and the role of government. One treats the Citizens like dumb beasts, sells their future labor to other nations, and generally like to rule from the top and the other sees Citizens as above the government, the government as (at best) civil servants to be trusted with as little power as possible given their access to initiation of force against fellow Citizens. When you have a douche bag at the Federal Reserve setting interest rates, you can not know the true value of money. On a whim they can raise them or lower them, they can monetize debt or dry up credit.

I think you have summed up the "conservative" position quite nicely.

[Michael]

A banknote is currency. It is not debt. Please Michael explain how holding a banknote/currency is a debt. In the case of the US, a dollar is only worth what individuals are willing to pay for it. It has nothing at all to do with debt.

How does a Federal Bank Note come into existence? Debt.

Additionally, we are not stealing anything from anyone if we appropriately manage our resources.

And just what does this mean? Is a farmer YOUR resources? This country wasn't founded to 'manage' OUR resources - it was founded to stay the hell out of people's private business and off their private property. THAT was the role of government. It most certainly was NOT to 'manage our resources'. See, this is what pisses me off. You're so far gone you don't even realize it. Seriously, you really have no clue.

Income Tax IS immoral.

Oh, and I'm Liberal Joe. A real liberal. I may not be progressive but I AM liberal. Unlike other so-called Liberals around that turn into conservative chicken-hawks as soon as someone from their team gets in office - I still protest the wars. I still think it should be perfectly fine for homosexuals to serve their country openly and to marry. I may find public 'education' thick and mostly useless propagandizing, however, I do support NO prayer and NO national anthem in the schools funded with our millage.

More fear and nonsense Michael. No, I am stuck in this thing called responsible fiscal management.

That's not the role of government Joe. This is what you just don't seem to get. I mean, you totally don't get it. You think the governments' role is to manage people - it's not. See, the only way ANY government can manage people effectively is to reduce their freedoms and monitor them more. That's NOT our culture. Or it wasn't. If it is now, then I promise you, thing are going to get much shittier. When they do, look in the mirror, you'll know who to blame.

[joepistole]

How does a Federal Bank Note come into existence? Debt.

Wrong again Michael.

And just what does this mean? Is a farmer YOUR resources? This country wasn't founded to 'manage' OUR resources - it was founded to stay the hell out of people's private business and off their private property. THAT was the role of government. It most certainly was NOT to 'manage our resources'. See, this is what pisses me off. You're so far gone you don't even realize it. Seriously, you really have no clue.

Wrong again Michael. If you go back and do your history, you will learn that the Constitution was created to form a more perfect union (preamble US Constitution). It was not founded to "stay the hell out of people's private business".

Two, where are you getting this "country wasn't founded to manage our resources" nonsense? That was never the issue. This is you creating a straw man.

And you still do not understand the differences between a state and an individual.

Income Tax IS immoral.

That is your opinion. But there is this thing called government that exists to serve our collective interests. And it produces goods and services which costs money. Therefore you should be required to pay for those goods and services in my view.

Oh, and I'm Liberal Joe. A real liberal. I may not be progressive but I AM liberal. Unlike other so-called Liberals around that turn into conservative chicken-hawks as soon as someone from their team gets in office - I still protest the wars. I still think it should be perfectly fine for homosexuals to serve their country openly and to marry. I may find public 'education' thick and mostly useless propagandizing, however, I do support NO prayer and NO national anthem in the schools funded with our millage.

Good for you, it matters little what you want to call yourself. You and I both know you are a devoted Ron Paul supporter who is a "conservative" and running for POTUS on the Republican ticket.

That's not the role of government Joe. This is what you just don't seem to get. I mean, you totally don't get it. You think the governments' role is to manage people - it's not. See, the only way ANY government can manage people effectively is to reduce their freedoms and monitor them more. That's NOT our culture. Or it wasn't. If it is now, then I promise you, thing are going to get much shittier. When they do, look in the mirror, you'll know who to blame.

As stated earlier the roll of government is to manage our collective interests - that does include managing people. Government has always managed people. Since the inception of this country we have had laws and thrown people in jail or executed them for failure to follow the rules set by government. Our first president, George Washington, formed an army to get people to pay their taxes.