Paying to help my Dad out with religion

[scheherazade]

I have found some of the comments regarding Jehovah's Witnesses to be very interesting on this thread. We have JW's in the Yukon and I remember some years back when they built a new place of worship in our town. They brought in members from many areas and had the building up in three days or something similar. The main delay was waiting on concrete to set. It was an inspirational act of construction, a thing for which the Mormons and Mennonites are also known, I believe.

Religion is largely about the 'safety net' of community as many others have pointed out.

Relationships are personal and what may be completely objectionable to one person might be completely tolerable to another.

You are displaying an interesting initiative in wanting to lead your father to your own new-found truth but I would remind you that it is your perspective.

Your father has as much right to his 'wrong opinions' and religion as you do to yours. If you would have him glimpse 'your truth' it must come from you. Another attempting the task you set might surprisingly open his eyes to a perspective that you yourself are not even aware of.

In closing, the JW's I know boarded their horses with me for many years and the daughters hung out with me taking riding lessons among youngsters and adults of other backgrounds. Religion never was discussed as horses were the focus of our engagements.

I held potlucks and the family participated. The wife divorced her husband after many years when he developed serious health concerns. The discussion of JW's runs contrary to my own experience. Perhaps the family was not as devout as some, IDK.

[aaqucnaona]

18. Why?

Hm, just a year more than me. Expected you to be 25-35. I was just curious because that kind of desperation and lack of cold thinking is seen in teens, however, like many on this site, you come across as smarted than your years. Thats why I couldn't decide how old you might be.

[aaqucnaona]

So you got you input the guy is 18 years old , have you seen many 18 years old rational thy are at the age that they know better then the father. I had a punk like that and he volunteered to the navy for 6 years , (that was a blessing ) the society have thought him to respect and appreciate family.Now he is ok, and he learns something from the father

That wasnt my point. I respect and love my parts, but if someone does something demonstrably irrational, they deserve and must be put to task for it, for they must be exposed to the idea that they are or were irrational in that action/thought. What they do thereafter is their choice, but to not point this out just because I love them or because they are related to me....

[arauca]

That wasnt my point. I respect and love my parts, but if someone does something demonstrably irrational, they deserve and must be put to task for it, for they must be exposed to the idea that they are or were irrational in that action/thought. What they do thereafter is their choice, but to not point this out just because I love them or because they are related to me....

The parents have fed you they coded you they gave shelter and they put you through school, you don;t know why they act as they act , beside they cleaned you shit for several years and protected you . Now if you or any other does not like the surrounding in parents house and you can support yous self , then get your ass out of that environment . It is very bad wen an individual have been taken care for 18 years , suddenly will tell his parents on how to live and what is the truth for them. I left after 17 th birthday , I did no agree with my father , We lived in harmony until his death.

[wynn]

That wasnt my point. I respect and love my parts, but if someone does something demonstrably irrational, they deserve and must be put to task for it, for they must be exposed to the idea that they are or were irrational in that action/thought. What they do thereafter is their choice, but to not point this out just because I love them or because they are related to me....

The problem with such an attitude is that the holder of said attitude assumes himself to be on par with God - while at the same time, said human is not able to deliver the kind of riches and blessings that God is said to be able to deliver.


That thing that you find "demonstrably irrational" is demonstrably irrational to you, but not necessarily to everyone.

[Arioch]

@arauca --

Now from you. Could you describe what does respect for your family means ?

Respect, in all cases, starts with honesty. If you can't be honest with a person(even if that honesty is simply refusing to tell them something rather than lying about it) then any thought of respecting that person can be thrown out the window. Being honest with our loved ones often times means that we're going to be telling them things that they don't want to hear, such as saying that you don't think that this new religion is right for them(preferably with an explanation as to why). And actually I'm one who thinks that honesty towards a person is the height of showing them respect.

For example, I was vehemently opposed to my mother's marriage to my stepfather because I knew that he and his beliefs would drive a wedge between my mother and I. Now, I was exactly right and my mother has since admitted this, but even then she was glad that I respected and trusted her enough to voice my opinion and why I thought that. I know that if I felt that I needed to start a thread like this to help them with something, and I chose not to because some idiot convinced me that it wasn't "respectful" of my parents, they would both whip my ass.

So, here, in this thread, we have a son who's honestly and diligently seeking ways to help his father, a loving thing in and of itself. We also have, in this thread, a person who, based entirely on his subjective notions of "respect", is telling the above person that he should be ashamed of himself for loving his father enough to try to help him. Tell me, which one would you say should be more ashamed, the one who's simply trying to help his father, or the one who's attempting to force his beliefs on another(likely younger) person? I can tell you who gets my vote.

The parents have fed you they coded you they gave shelter and they put you through school, you don;t know why they act as they act , beside they cleaned you shit for several years and protected you .

Which is exactly why I see this thread as a sign of respect for his father rather than a sign of disrespect. If a person can't seek to help his own parents when he thinks(or knows) that they need help because of some archaic ideas about "respect" then they can't really respect the person in my eyes. You may not like the way he's chosen to go about it, but the motivation behind it is laudable indeed.

Now if you or any other does not like the surrounding in parents house and you can support yous self , then get your ass out of that environment .

But if he, for whatever reason, can't support himself, is that any reason for him to silence himself if he sees a loved one making a mistake? How could you ask a son to hate his father that much?

It is very bad wen an individual have been taken care for 18 years , suddenly will tell his parents on how to live and what is the truth for them.

And it's worse, oh so much worse, for a parent to have so little respect for their child that they'd let paternity trump reason. I know that the instant my parents care more that I'm their child than they do about whether or not I'm right is the same instant that they will lose any respect I have for them. That our parents cared for us when we were unable to care for ourselves is not a ticket for unconditional respect or love, not by a long shot.

I left after 17 th birthday , I did no agree with my father , We lived in harmony until his death.

I left my parent's house at eighteen(though, I'd technically been renting from them since I was sixteen), and while our relationship has likely been bumpier than your's was with your parents, I'm more than sure that we're far more open and honest with each other.

[garbonzo]

You do realize these are excuses?

Where else can one buy the base layers? A sporting goods store I guess?

He won't touch a computer, seriously.

He's depressed. He even acknowledged it. It doesn't matter what he believes because his depression is very real regardless.

I won't be able to help him if he shuns me.

Your top 3 (whatever they are).

Only the Golden Rule and obeying the government. I may be missing something, but I'm not sure.

Even the most staunch religious person has many values that are not influenced by church doctrine as one of the core influencers for values is raw genetics. Additionally you can say *should* or *should not* in any context, but it is still subjective (i.e. it's only in a person's head).

Yeah, I never said that they didn't. I'm saying should or should not based on facts.

Yet people who don't murder or steal get murdered and stolen from. I don't think any human alive can avoid insulting or being insulted. What you are proposing though is living by a fear principle. Specifically, don't do something that would prompt others to take revenge on you for. As you continue to observe human history and current news in the word, you may notice that this principle is not compatible with actual human behavior.

That is what we should and should not do based solely on preserving the human race. It doesn't matter that other people try to kill you. YOU shouldn't kill. Or we would all be dead. I don't see how you can say murder is subjective, lol.

Just a side note on your comment "...has no right to be believed in...". Having a right is subjective. Right's don't objectively exist so using them in an objective argument is a poor choice.

I'm saying this based on facts.

Religion is a set of methods for human psychological satiation. Prayer, worship, communion, etc. are all activities that bring humans closer together. The benefit of doing this is resource sharing. If you go back in time 100 years and beyond you would notice that survival was much more difficult. If people came together in a group that brought them closer together then they would cooperate, share resources with each other, and have a much higher chance of survival than outsiders. This behavior is part of our genetics due to the way we evolved as a species. It is what it is. We are in a time now when resources are a lot more plentiful and being the outsider of a religious group doesn't have any survival detriment; however, there are no pressures that would cause believers to not reproduce and believers to reproduce for a million years, so there is no way to remove the behavior from our species.

I'm talking about the future, not the past.
I think it is widely recognized that religion is not needed for happiness or survival.

Simply put, people are hard wired to feel good if they do believe in it. If we lived in a different time (or a different country) then your survival could be dependent on believing.

We are hard wired for a lot of things. Religion is just one way to accomplish the things you mentioned. There are other ways which doesn't have disastrous consequences.

Genetics. The combined intellect of the entire human species cannot displace billions of years of genetic behaviors.

I don't believe that. Religion only started becoming wide spread fairly recently when you look at evolution. It was needed to grow civilizations, maybe. But we are past that now.

Are you trying to say that genetics will cause us to do things illogical? O.o

Thanks.

[garbonzo]

That thing that you find "demonstrably irrational" is demonstrably irrational to you, but not necessarily to everyone.

I don't get that at all. It's demonstrably irrational meaning it can be demonstrated. This is based on facts.

It's true that there are some people who can't accept facts, like yourself. So be it.

[garbonzo]

Why don't you leave your father to live his own life without your interference?
Maybe he is happier and more fulfilled in his "ignorance" than you are with all your cleverness.
Your attitude is arrogant and headstrong in the extreme.

I'm sorry if I come across that way. I do not want to lose my Father. If you have a Father or someone you love, can you imagine losing them because of some brainwashing religion that preaches fairytales? Please try to understand. My Dad is depressed now and not happy. Stressed because of this religion.

I believe he will be much happier without this religion. He is not happy now, and he is depressed because of this religion. It is not helping him at all. He is stressed and it will only get worse, I'm sure.

As I've said so many times now, I only want to give him a chance. If he is not reasonable, then so be it, we tried, but he should be given a chance. For you to say he should do what he wants in life is like saying that to that one gay kid who committed suicide because of bullying. Maybe you could save someone from committing suicide if you get them to see the truth. By truth, I only mean logical thinking, not atheism as in "There is no God. Period." Obviously we don't know that. I'm just saying truth as in what we know currently. I just want him to be thinking critically. Is there really anything wrong with that?

I do respect his freedom. He is free to do whatever he wants. I only want to give him a chance. He has no access to any research. He probably doesn't even know how to use the library, even. So how would he know any better?

When most of the doctors and scientists were supporting Hitler's war aims and his racist and euthanasia policies,
Jehovah's Witnesses were going to the death camps to quietly oppose him.

So were Jews. Most of the world's population opposed them. I don't get the point.

Most Jehovah's Witnesses are kind and honest people, that do a lot of good things. Does that mean what they believe is right? Does that make them immune to criticizing? Does that give them free will do to whatever they want? Does that give the organization right to split families apart and effectively kill people by telling them not to take life saving blood? All based on lies?

I don't believe it does, but everyone is welcome to their own opinion.

[Arioch]

@garbonzo --

Kremmen apparently thinks that a reductio ad hitlerum is enough to validate any point, even those that are completely unrelated.

[garbonzo]

I have found some of the comments regarding Jehovah's Witnesses to be very interesting on this thread. We have JW's in the Yukon and I remember some years back when they built a new place of worship in our town. They brought in members from many areas and had the building up in three days or something similar. The main delay was waiting on concrete to set. It was an inspirational act of construction, a thing for which the Mormons and Mennonites are also known, I believe.

Yes, people will volunteer to do anything if the believe they will get a higher standing with God if they do. It is commendable, but it has consequences, sadly.

Religion is largely about the 'safety net' of community as many others have pointed out.

There are other ways to develop a community.

You are displaying an interesting initiative in wanting to lead your father to your own new-found truth but I would remind you that it is your perspective.

It is my perspective based on research. Research my father doesn't have the tools to be able to do. He should be given a chance at least, don't you think? Again, I only want him thinking logically. Whatever he believes after is fine.

Your father has as much right to his 'wrong opinions' and religion as you do to yours. If you would have him glimpse 'your truth' it must come from you. Another attempting the task you set might surprisingly open his eyes to a perspective that you yourself are not even aware of.

I'm not sure what you mean. He has the right, but he can still be given a chance. I want a chance to have a good relationship with my Dad until he dies. If he shuns me, because of a sect, I am unable to do that.

In closing, the JW's I know boarded their horses with me for many years and the daughters hung out with me taking riding lessons among youngsters and adults of other backgrounds. Religion never was discussed as horses were the focus of our engagements.

Like I said, they are allowed to talk to "worldly" people and such, but not become friends with them. They should distance themselves from any "worldly" thinking, actions, etc.

I was a devout JW and know every rule. My Dad was an Elder in the congregation, which is the highest position in the congregation, and I was baptized, which happens when you know most things of what "God wants" etc.. I also have the Watchtower Library which has all their literature from 1960 or so in one application.

Finding Friends
Where can you find friends who love God? Within the Christian congregation. Search out youths who not only make a profession of faith but also have works to back up their faith and devotion. (Compare James 2:26.) If such youths are hard to find, get to know some Christians who are older than you. Age need not be a barrier to friendship. The Bible tells of the model friendship between David and Jonathan—and Jonathan was old enough to be David’s father!—1*Samuel 18:1.

Perhaps you feel that you’ve found friends like that at school—one or two of your classmates with whom you’ve hit it off well. You share some similar interests and enjoy talking together. To you they may not seem to fit the category of ‘bad association.’ (1*Corinthians 15:33) “You see these kids almost every day,” says Anne. “So you feel comfortable around them. It’s not like being around your spiritual brothers and sisters, where at times you feel you need to be more careful how you act. At school you can relax.” In addition, you may find yourself viewing things the way Lois did, who says, “I wanted my school friends to see that Jehovah’s Witnesses are not as different as everyone thinks, to show them we’re normal.” Are those sound reasons to become close friends with your schoolmates?

Why the Need for Caution?

Consider what happened to Maria, quoted at the outset. Her outgoing nature made it easy for her to attract friends but difficult for her to know where to draw the line. “I liked being liked, by both girls and boys,” she admits. “As a result, I found myself sliding deeper and deeper into the quicksand of this world.” Lois experienced something similar. “The attitudes of the other kids rubbed off on me,” she says. “I began acting like them.”
That outcome isn’t surprising. After all, to remain close friends with someone, you need to share that one’s interests and values. If you forge close friendships with people who don’t adhere to your Scriptural beliefs and standards, such association is bound to affect your conduct. (Proverbs 13:20) For good reason, the apostle Paul wrote: “Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers.”—2*Corinthians 6:14.

This holds true for anyone, not for schoolmates.

“Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers.”—2*Corinthians 6:14.

They rationalize.

I held potlucks and the family participated. The wife divorced her husband after many years when he developed serious health concerns. The discussion of JW's runs contrary to my own experience. Perhaps the family was not as devout as some, IDK.

They probably were not devout at all. The religion teaches all the time not to fellowship with so called "wordly" people. We aren't allowed to do after-school activities or go to "wordly" one's parties or get-togethers. Only the ones held by Witnesses every year or so around where I live. Where I used to live I don't remember any Witness get-togethers. My family would never go to any potlucks held by non-witnesses.

If she divorced over anything other than adultery, she would be reproved or restricted within the congregation (she wouldn't be able to enroll in the school or comment at the meetings), or even disfellowshipped or excommunicated. I'm not sure, but it's definitely not allowed.

Since marriage is a union of imperfect individuals, however, some extreme circumstances may result in separation or divorce. The Bible allows for separation under certain circumstances. Yet, separation must not be taken lightly, for the Bible counsels: “A wife should not depart from her husband; .*.*. and a husband should not leave his wife.” (1*Corinthians 7:10,*11) And only fornication by one of the marriage mates provides Scriptural grounds for divorce.—Matthew 19:9.

If anything, she might have grounds for legal separation. Nothing else.

[garbonzo]

@garbonzo --

Kremmen apparently thinks that a reductio ad hitlerum is enough to validate any point, even those that are completely unrelated.

Hahaha, I guess so.

[Crunchy Cat]

Where else can one buy the base layers? A sporting goods store I guess?

Correct!

He won't touch a computer, seriously.

Lure him in with video games. A slick first person shooter. Males respond to that like crack-whores (universally).

I won't be able to help him if he shuns me.

You won't be able to help if your afraid you might be shunned.

Only the Golden Rule and obeying the government. I may be missing something, but I'm not sure.

That means a core value of yours is following the rules. You have many many more but you have not discovered them yet. Your ability to lead by example / be a role positive model will drastically improve the day that you do.

Yeah, I never said that they didn't. I'm saying should or should not based on facts.

Should I or should I not eat salmon for dinner? What are the objective facts to make this decision with?

That is what we should and should not do based solely on preserving the human race.

Oh? Do you think all people share your values of preservation? I'll bet you that they dont.

It doesn't matter that other people try to kill you.

Nothing matters actually. That is a subjective word.

YOU shouldn't kill. Or we would all be dead. I don't see how you can say murder is subjective, lol.

Murder is an objective action where someone kills another person in violation of an enforceable law. Whether you *should* or *should not* kill is subjective. We send troops all over the world and tell them to kill.

I'm saying this based on facts.

Again, should I or should I not eat salmon for dinner? What are the objective facts to make this decision with?

I'm talking about the future, not the past.

And I am talking about both. What has happened in the past puts constraints on what can happen in the future.

I think it is widely recognized that religion is not needed for happiness or survival.

In a first world country religion is not needed for survival (I agree). As for happiness, religion *might* not be needed but it is an easy way to attain various forms of psychological satiation (happiness included to some degree). People have a strong tendency to take the path of least resistence and until that time that there is an easier alternative to religion, people will turn to religion.

We are hard wired for a lot of things. Religion is just one way to accomplish the things you mentioned. There are other ways which doesn't have disastrous consequences.

Religion is a universal way to accomplish the things I mentioned, for all humans across the entire planet (it has shown up in every society since known recorded history). While there may be other ways that don't have nearly as many negative consequences, religion is the easiest for us because of the way we evolved as a species.

I don't believe that. Religion only started becoming wide spread fairly recently when you look at evolution.

We have seen evidence of religious burial rites being conducted 300,000 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_religion

Who knows how early it actually started but the cognitive abilities that humans posess to even come up with religious concepts is a result of our entire evolutionary history.

It was needed to grow civilizations, maybe. But we are past that now.

That belief is a delusion. Here is the reality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio..._United_States

Are you trying to say that genetics will cause us to do things illogical? O.o

Illogical is a subjective word. What might be illogical to you may be utterly logical to someone else. However, you probably *consider* certain fears irrational. Ever met someone who is intensely afraid of something for no apparent reason? Fear of heights? Spiders? That's genetics.

[arauca]

@arauca --



Respect, in all cases, starts with honesty. If you can't be honest with a person(even if that honesty is simply refusing to tell them something rather than lying about it) then any thought of respecting that person can be thrown out the window. Being honest with our loved ones often times means that we're going to be telling them things that they don't want to hear, such as saying that you don't think that this new religion is right for them(preferably with an explanation as to why). And actually I'm one who thinks that honesty towards a person is the height of showing them respect.

For example, I was vehemently opposed to my mother's marriage to my stepfather because I knew that he and his beliefs would drive a wedge between my mother and I. Now, I was exactly right and my mother has since admitted this, but even then she was glad that I respected and trusted her enough to voice my opinion and why I thought that. I know that if I felt that I needed to start a thread like this to help them with something, and I chose not to because some idiot convinced me that it wasn't "respectful" of my parents, they would both whip my ass.

So, here, in this thread, we have a son who's honestly and diligently seeking ways to help his father, a loving thing in and of itself. We also have, in this thread, a person who, based entirely on his subjective notions of "respect", is telling the above person that he should be ashamed of himself for loving his father enough to try to help him. Tell me, which one would you say should be more ashamed, the one who's simply trying to help his father, or the one who's attempting to force his beliefs on another(likely younger) person? I can tell you who gets my vote.



Which is exactly why I see this thread as a sign of respect for his father rather than a sign of disrespect. If a person can't seek to help his own parents when he thinks(or knows) that they need help because of some archaic ideas about "respect" then they can't really respect the person in my eyes. You may not like the way he's chosen to go about it, but the motivation behind it is laudable indeed.



But if he, for whatever reason, can't support himself, is that any reason for him to silence himself if he sees a loved one making a mistake? How could you ask a son to hate his father that much?



And it's worse, oh so much worse, for a parent to have so little respect for their child that they'd let paternity trump reason. I know that the instant my parents care more that I'm their child than they do about whether or not I'm right is the same instant that they will lose any respect I have for them. That our parents cared for us when we were unable to care for ourselves is not a ticket for unconditional respect or love, not by a long shot.



I left my parent's house at eighteen(though, I'd technically been renting from them since I was sixteen), and while our relationship has likely been bumpier than your's was with your parents, I'm more than sure that we're far more open and honest with each other.

Before any thing . I am glad I was born in an other society and generation s back.
What does honesty have to do with mingling with my parents believe why is he ( garbanzo ) trying to convert his parents or in this case you . If a parent is part of a society and is not doing any harm to any one , why bother , His father give him the freedom of choice, but now the son is attempting to convert the father .. If the individual is happy live him alone, The same applies to you . Pardon but you are a very selfish individual . You want your happiness and to hell mothers happiness, and you are telling me you have respect because you told her that it will drive a wadge between both of you. How about if I tell you that because of you selfishness you have driven a wadge between all 3 of you . If you are a good son you scarify your happiness so your mother would be happy .I had an incident like that my son don't wanted me to get married when my wife perished , He did not realized how difficult is to rise two of them without a female for them and for me . Now that he is in his late 20 he changed his mind. You guys will change when you reach 40 and have your own kids .

[gmilam]

Before any thing . I am glad I was born in an other society and generation s back.
What does honesty have to do with mingling with my parents believe why is he ( garbanzo ) trying to convert his parents or in this case you . If a parent is part of a society and is not doing any harm to any one , why bother , His father give him the freedom of choice, but now the son is attempting to convert the father .. If the individual is happy live him alone, The same applies to you . Pardon but you are a very selfish individual . You want your happiness and to hell mothers happiness, and you are telling me you have respect because you told her that it will drive a wadge between both of you. How about if I tell you that because of you selfishness you have driven a wadge between all 3 of you . If you are a good son you scarify your happiness so your mother would be happy .I had an incident like that my son don't wanted me to get married when my wife perished , He did not realized how difficult is to rise two of them without a female for them and for me . Now that he is in his late 20 he changed his mind. You guys will change when you reach 40 and have your own kids .

Jehovah's Witnesses shun those who leave the faith. Pure and simple...

Should a son stay in a religion that he doesn't believe?
Should a father disown a child because they don't believe as he does?

These are difficult issues. A person's family is important to them... However, you can't make yourself believe something that ultimately does not make sense to you. And to pretend is to live a lie.

[aaqucnaona]

The parents have fed you they coded you they gave shelter and they put you through school, you don;t know why they act as they act , beside they cleaned you shit for several years and protected you . Now if you or any other does not like the surrounding in parents house and you can support yous self , then get your ass out of that environment . It is very bad wen an individual have been taken care for 18 years , suddenly will tell his parents on how to live and what is the truth for them. I left after 17 th birthday , I did no agree with my father , We lived in harmony until his death.

I am not actually debating my father on religion I am eclectic and logical enough to know that my best interest for him would conflict with his best interests for me, I have tried it already - hence I keep it quiet, he knows that I am a scientific sceptic and opposed to illiogic or irrationality, like customs or traditions and that I am agnostic apatheist. I am actually an agnostic atheistic apatheist, but I feel no obligation to reveal a triviality that can only harm us both, hence I usually play along or ignore the religious bits and my relationship with my dad is excellent. My mom is much more open and she knows the whole bit and she agrees with my white lie. Mom and I often discuss religion and that is what makes my relationship with my Mom better. SO it varies from person to person, and if the situation calls for a response different than my general philosophy, I would do it, provided that that response does little to no harm to anyone and has a greater benefit - its simply practical and pragmatic, I would if I could, but since I cant, its useless to stick to my ideals in that particular situation.

[aaqucnaona]

The problem with such an attitude is that the holder of said attitude assumes himself to be on par with God - while at the same time, said human is not able to deliver the kind of riches and blessings that God is said to be able to deliver.

But since the human definetly exists while the God is uncertain, the human is the only demonstrably real thing we have got. Pythagoras was as correct about right angled triangles as any God can ever be about anything, the achievement of demonstrable truth is not beyond human. But here we see a common theistic trait you show - the placing for feeling above truth.

That thing that you find "demonstrably irrational" is demonstrably irrational to you, but not necessarily to everyone.

The very meaning of being demonstrable is that it can be shown to be so to a unbaised party - it is justifiable to be considered objectively true. That is what demonstrably means.

[Bells]

I'm sorry if I come across that way. I do not want to lose my Father.

We are not the ones you need to be telling that to.

If you have a Father or someone you love, can you imagine losing them because of some brainwashing religion that preaches fairytales? Please try to understand. My Dad is depressed now and not happy. Stressed because of this religion.

Have you tried to ask your father why he is unhappy or stressed? Or are you guessing?

I am an atheist and I have to say I find your 'stop believing as I do not believe' to be somewhat overbearing and insulting. Your father is a grown man who knows what is right and best for himself.

Have you ever considered that he is unhappy and stressed because you do not seem to trust his judgement or what he thinks or believes is right for him? His beliefs are his and not yours. Maybe he might be happier if you respected his choices and allowed him to be himself without ultimatums and demands he stop believing in something he has obviously believed in and felt was right for him for a long time.

I believe he will be much happier without this religion.

But that may not be what he believes.

He is not happy now, and he is depressed because of this religion. It is not helping him at all. He is stressed and it will only get worse, I'm sure.

Again, have you asked him why he is stressed an unhappy?

As I've said so many times now, I only want to give him a chance.

How condescending of you.

Why do you think you have a right to 'give him a chance' to become an atheist or leave his religion? Don't you think he is adult enough and knows what is right for himself?

If he is not reasonable, then so be it, we tried, but he should be given a chance. For you to say he should do what he wants in life is like saying that to that one gay kid who committed suicide because of bullying.

Nice analogy.. Comparing an adult who is daring to have his religious beliefs to people bullying a homosexual child to the point of suicide..

So why are you bullying your father to think and believe just like you do?

Maybe you could save someone from committing suicide if you get them to see the truth.

Who? The person doing the bullying or the victim?

At the moment, from the manner in which you are discussing and describing this, you seem to be the one doing the bullying and your father is the victim.

Your belief and/or lack thereof is personal and yours alone. Your father's beliefs are his. Maybe the truth you refuse to see is that you cannot accept that your father is right to believe in whatever deity or religion he chooses to believe in. Maybe the actual truth here is that you have very little respect for your father and only value him if he shares your beliefs.

By truth, I only mean logical thinking, not atheism as in "There is no God. Period." Obviously we don't know that. I'm just saying truth as in what we know currently. I just want him to be thinking critically. Is there really anything wrong with that?

How do you know he has not and made his decision long ago?

Why do you value your father's intelligence so little?

I do respect his freedom. He is free to do whatever he wants. I only want to give him a chance. He has no access to any research. He probably doesn't even know how to use the library, even. So how would he know any better?

You think forcing your truth down his throat and demanding he believe as you do is respecting his freedom?

Maybe you should just respect him as an individual and respect his right to believe in what he wants to believe.

My advice, respect your father's beliefs and talk to him about why you don't believe as he does and ask that he respects you, the son he brought up, to do the right thing.

[garbonzo]

Correct!



Lure him in with video games. A slick first person shooter. Males respond to that like crack-whores (universally).

My Dad is 60 years old and never played a game in his life, lol. Also he doesn't like violence. Also he doesn't respond positively to crack whores either.

You won't be able to help if your afraid you might be shunned.

No, I WILL be shunned.

That means a core value of yours is following the rules. You have many many more but you have not discovered them yet. Your ability to lead by example / be a role positive model will drastically improve the day that you do.

May I ask what are your top 5 morals that AREN'T part of the Golden Rule, then? I need something to go by, as maybe I am just misunderstanding the word "values".

Should I or should I not eat salmon for dinner? What are the objective facts to make this decision with?

Well we know that fish, particularly salmon can be good for you. We also know that too much fish can be bad for you. We also know that people like different foods and crave some more than others at any given time. We also know that some people and restaurants cook certain foods better than other foods, and other people and restaurants. We also know that some foods may be available to us more than others. These variables are generally accepted for all individuals, and are all based on facts. Your decision on if you should eat salmon or not for dinner will almost always be based on facts.

Oh? Do you think all people share your values of preservation? I'll bet you that they dont.

Can you give an example? I cant reply to something when I don't know what specifically you are talking about. If I gave a guess, I would say I am not talking about my values of preservation, I am talking about preservation period. Preservation may mean you have to kill someone that will or might kill you or other humans in the future, but mostly preservation would mean not doing anything to provoke harm, either. Etc. Just the basic concept of preservation based on the current variables.

Nothing matters actually. That is a subjective word.

Excuses.

Murder is an objective action where someone kills another person in violation of an enforceable law. Whether you *should* or *should not* kill is subjective. We send troops all over the world and tell them to kill.

It should always be based on facts, though. Logical thinking should be based on facts.

Again, should I or should I not eat salmon for dinner? What are the objective facts to make this decision with?

Answered.

And I am talking about both. What has happened in the past puts constraints on what can happen in the future.

If religion is needed again in the future, then so be it. I am talking about of society remains on the incline.

In a first world country religion is not needed for survival (I agree). As for happiness, religion *might* not be needed but it is an easy way to attain various forms of psychological satiation (happiness included to some degree). People have a strong tendency to take the path of least resistence and until that time that there is an easier alternative to religion, people will turn to religion.

Then why don't you turn to religion?

I don't know about you, but if religion was the easiest way to make me happy, I would be in one, but for me, being in a religion only caused depression and stress in the long run. Sure there are good side effects, but there are bad ones, too. Anyone logically thinking based on facts, after it is available to them would not be in a religion. I consider anyone who truly believes in a religion, either not a logical thinker, or doesn't have the facts available to them (as the case with most who do truly believe).

Religion is a universal way to accomplish the things I mentioned, for all humans across the entire planet (it has shown up in every society since known recorded history). While there may be other ways that don't have nearly as many negative consequences, religion is the easiest for us because of the way we evolved as a species.

Religion may have been in every society, but can we know for sure that was thought of as the universal fact for that society? Whatever evidence we may have found may have been from some radical group.

We have seen evidence of religious burial rites being conducted 300,000 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_religion

Who knows how early it actually started but the cognitive abilities that humans posess to even come up with religious concepts is a result of our entire evolutionary history. [/QUOTE]

Yes. This doesn't mean everyone believed it.

That belief is a delusion. Here is the reality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio..._United_States

And atheisim is on the incline. What makes you think it will stop? Young people with access to computers, like myself, can research the facts and see the truth (what we currently know), these numbers will only rise as the theists die off and the young ones of today become the old ones of tommorrow. Among Americans ages 18-29, one-in-four say they are not currently affiliated with any particular religion. According to a LifeWay Christian Resources survey, 72 percent of 18 to 29 year olds were more spiritual than religious. 65 percent rarely prayed or went to church. As these grow older and wiser, those who were affiliated with a religion will become unaffiliated more and more. When you only consider middle class and above, the percentages grow even more. These statistics will always grow as long as society is inclining and there is not catastrophe.

I found this video, it's very informative. I watched it all, and I would recommend watching it all to anyone:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...64510379&hl=en

I agree with mostly everything he said.

Illogical is a subjective word. What might be illogical to you may be utterly logical to someone else. However, you probably *consider* certain fears irrational. Ever met someone who is intensely afraid of something for no apparent reason? Fear of heights? Spiders? That's genetics.

Illogically based on facts. Fear of heights and spiders can hardly seem illogical, as the facts show these things can kill us.

The facts also show that people can have certain fear of things, and also mental disorders. These things are not genetics. :S

I hope this makes sense. I do understand where you are coming from, also.

[garbonzo]

We are not the ones you need to be telling that to.

Oh fucking boy... here we go again. With all do respect, I do appreciate you trying to help, but could you at least read the whole thread? ;( I mean most of this has been covered so many times. I will try and give the short answer to your questions, but could you please change your tone? You seem to act like you know me and my Father more than anyone else in the world, lol, and then you talk about me being condescending. O.o

I cannot tell my Dad because he will shun me for as long as he lives.

Have you tried to ask your father why he is unhappy or stressed? Or are you guessing?

Of course. Why wouldn't I?

I am an atheist and I have to say I find your 'stop believing as I do not believe' to be somewhat overbearing and insulting. Your father is a grown man who knows what is right and best for himself.

He seem to be under the impression that he has all the facts. One cannot know what is right if they don't know any better. Consider why we have gotten out of the stone age and into the modern age. If one doesn't have the tools, how can one build? My Dad has not done any research into this matter and cannot. He wont touch a computer, and he is either too lazy to go to the library or too intimidated. He can only learn by word of mouth right now, and I can't do that without losing him for the rest of my life. Please at least try to understand.

The situation is much more dire than you seem think.

Have you ever considered that he is unhappy and stressed because you do not seem to trust his judgement or what he thinks or believes is right for him? His beliefs are his and not yours. Maybe he might be happier if you respected his choices and allowed him to be himself without ultimatums and demands he stop believing in something he has obviously believed in and felt was right for him for a long time.

Again, I haven't done anything yet (I cant do anything; at least not until he has some doubts), and he is depressed and stressed. With respect, you know nothing about what this sect is like and what it can do to you, and you shouldn't make it seem like you do.

But that may not be what he believes.

He doesn't know any better, with all due respect to him. And I say this based on facts. On what he's told me and what's logical to assume.

Again, have you asked him why he is stressed an unhappy?

Again, yes.

How condescending of you.

Why do you think you have a right to 'give him a chance' to become an atheist or leave his religion? Don't you think he is adult enough and knows what is right for himself?

Already covered.

Nice analogy.. Comparing an adult who is daring to have his religious beliefs to people bullying a homosexual child to the point of suicide..

So why are you bullying your father to think and believe just like you do?

Okay, I am not bullying my Father, I've already stated a million times in this thread that I only want to give him a chance. If he is unreasonable than so be it. You got that chance. Isnt it selfish of you to think another doesn't deserve it because they don't know how with what's available to them? Tell me how you became an atheist and I will tell if if that option is available to him, how is that?

That line of reasoning is futile. I could say why are you bullying me to think and believe just like you do? We could go on and on. It's the whole definition of debate and opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, whether that opinion is that they need to get others to side with their opinion IS their opinion. (Hope that made sense grammatically, Haha.)

Nevertheless, it is covered that I do not want to override anyone's freedom. Only provide them the tools to think whatever they want to think. If my Dad asks me to, I would research apologetic claims, also. I know I have done so. He can believe what he wants. If you think there is something wrong with this, you are free to hold a campaign against libraries, and the Internet, also, Haha.

Who? The person doing the bullying or the victim?

My Dad could very well commit suicide if he continues this route. The suicide rate among Witnesses is high compatively speaking.

The analogy stands.

The bullying victim could have received help, is the point.

At the moment, from the manner in which you are discussing and describing this, you seem to be the one doing the bullying and your father is the victim.

Your belief and/or lack thereof is personal and yours alone. Your father's beliefs are his. Maybe the truth you refuse to see is that you cannot accept that your father is right to believe in whatever deity or religion he chooses to believe in. Maybe the actual truth here is that you have very little respect for your father and only value him if he shares your beliefs.

This has been covered, and I'd also like to point out the posts made by Arioch on this thread when it comes to respect. You realize you are using the same line of thought as a theistic troll such as arauca?

Also, my Dad is the one that will only value me if I share his beliefs, currently, LOL.

How do you know he has not and made his decision long ago?

Why do you value your father's intelligence so little?

In my OP I've said that he has done no research into this matter. ;/ He has made no decision based on facts and what we know currently in the world.

My father's intelligence is varied. Basically he has huge potential, be he never got any education to realize it. While he may not be intelligent in some basic things, he is in other no so basic things. Like, he may not know how to spell a lot of things, but he has a lot of experience in owning property (Property that makes barely anything, when it comes to money btw, but still, experience) etc.

But you know nothing about my Father's intelligence. Why do you seem to pretend like you do? Lol... It is highly unusual. But nevertheless...

You think forcing your truth down his throat and demanding he believe as you do is respecting his freedom?

Maybe you should just respect him as an individual and respect his right to believe in what he wants to believe.

My advice, respect your father's beliefs and talk to him about why you don't believe as he does and ask that he respects you, the son he brought up, to do the right thing.

I do believe most of this post has been based on a simple mis-understanding of the situation. Thanks for replying at least.