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Thread: A challenge to Atheists! #2

  1. #61
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    Garbanzo- have you ever copied a copy of a copy of a paper? It comes out completely distorted. Think of the concept of 2012 and the Mayans. Where does it say anything besides "we don't feeling like adding more to the calendar until its time"? That is a time-distorted concept, pleaser correct me if I am drastically wrong, for some reason I have a slight nagging in my brain about that one. My point is, who knows what may have changed since those original scriptures were made? They could have been changed bit by bit over centuries to match events. People don't do it to lie, but as a side effect of true belief in the religion, they edit events to match a religion, or, in this case, vice versa. If more evidence that expectations can change your perception of things is needed, I have a fair amount more.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amag View Post
    Garbanzo- have you ever copied a copy of a copy of a paper? It comes out completely distorted. Think of the concept of 2012 and the Mayans. Where does it say anything besides "we don't feeling like adding more to the calendar until its time"? That is a time-distorted concept, pleaser correct me if I am drastically wrong, for some reason I have a slight nagging in my brain about that one. My point is, who knows what may have changed since those original scriptures were made? They could have been changed bit by bit over centuries to match events. People don't do it to lie, but as a side effect of true belief in the religion, they edit events to match a religion, or, in this case, vice versa. If more evidence that expectations can change your perception of things is needed, I have a fair amount more.
    Did you read this??

    I got a reply back from him and would like an answer to this first before I move onto anything else:

    Hi,

    Actually, we do know that Daniel 9:24-27 was written prior to it's fulfillment. Even secular, naturalistic historians ascribe a date of around 168 BC to Daniel. This is because they refuse to accept the remarkable fulfillment of it's prophecies regarding the Medo Persian, Chaldean, Grecian and Roman Empires. They would date it later if they could, but they can't because of the historical evidence. Multiple Daniel manuscripts were found among the dead Sea scrolls.

    The remarkable prophecy regarding the Suffering Servant is also found in the Dead Sea Scroll's Great Isaiah Scroll, dated 100-150 BC. I invite you to read this translation of that passage from The Great Isaiah Scroll:

    Column XLIV Isaiah 52:13 to 54:4
    1. (Chapter 52:13.) Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and be very high (14.) as those who were astonished
    2. at him are many; because his visage was marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
    3. (15.) So shall he startle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which
    4. was not told to them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
    5. (Chapter 53:1) Who has believed our report and the arm of YHWH to whom has it been revealed (2) And he shall come up like a suckling before us
    6. and as a root from dry ground there is no form to him and no beauty to him and in his being seen and there is no appearance
    7. that we should desire him. (3) He is despised and rejected of men, a man of sorrows and knowing grief
    8. and as though hiding faces from him he was despised and we did not esteem him. (4) Surely our griefs he
    9. is bearing and our sorrows he carried them and we esteemed him beaten and struck by God
    [There is a scribal thumb print over lines 10 to 12.]
    10. and afflicted. (5) and he is wounded for our transgressions, and crushed for our iniquities, the correction
    11. of our peace was upon him and by his wounds he has healed us. (6) All of us like sheep have wandered each man to his own way
    12. we have turned and YHWH has caused to light on him the iniquity of all of us (7) He was oppressed and he was afflicted and he did not
    13. open his mouth, as a lamb to the slaughter he is brought and as a ewe before her shearers is made dumb he did not open
    14. his mouth. (8) From prison and from judgement he was taken and his generation who shall discuss it because he was cut off from the land of
    15. the living. Because from the transgressions of his people a wound was to him (PP)
    16. (9) And they gave wicked ones to be his grave and [a scribbled word probably accusative sign "eth"] rich ones in his death
    17. although he worked no violence neither deceit in his mouth (10) And YHWH was pleased to crush him and He has caused him grief. (PP)
    18. If you will appoint his soul a sin offering he will see his seed and he will lengthen his days and the pleasure of YHWH {&yod?&]
    19. in his hand will advance. (11) Of the toil of his soul he shall see {+light+} and he shall be satisfied and by his knowledge shall he make righteous
    20. even my righteous servant for many and their iniquities he will bear. (12) Therefore I will apportion to him among the great ones
    21. and with the mighty ones he shall divide the spoil because he laid bare to death his soul and with the transgressors
    22. he was numbered, and he, the sins of many, he bore, and for their transgressions he entreated.(PP)

    ( http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qa-tran.htm)
    Both of these prophecies were undeniably written at least 100 years prior to their fulfillment by Jesus. And these are not the only ones; I can provide you with more. You asked for evidence. Now you have it.
    In Christ,
    Rusty Entrekin
    Speaking about Daniel 9:24-27;

    Consider how all but verse 27 of this prophecy has been fulfilled:
    March 5, 444 BC: Decree to rebuild Jerusalem was given.
    + 7 weeks of years (49 years) = 395 BC: This was the time required to rebuild the city according to verse 25, also the date of the writing of Malachi, which marked the close of the OT canon.
    + 62 weeks of years (434 years)= March 30, 33 AD: Approximate time of the triumphal entry of Jesus into Jerusalem foretold in Zechariah: 9:9-10: " Rejoice greatly, Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey." The prophetic time clock stops ticking here.
    After this, as prophesied by Daniel, the Anointed one was put to death and had nothing (April 3, 33 AD).
    As also prophesied by Daniel, in 70 AD the city and sanctuary were destroyed by the Roman armies (see Josephus).
    At a future time, a ruler of the people who destroyed Jerusalem will confirm a covenant (perhaps with most of the Jewish people). At that time, the prophetic time clock will begin ticking again, and the last week, or seven years of this prophecy will be fulfilled.

    This fulfillment is amazing evidence not only that Daniel was a true prophet, but that Jesus is the Messiah.

  3. #63
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    Also, the Mayans have a calander cycle that goes beyond 2012, so its not that they just randomly picked that date to end it on. The Mayans never said it was the end of the world but it is evident they expected the world to change on that date. Their prophecies also states that a God will come back (yes, back) down from the stars on that date. Very interesting. I am certainly a believer that an alien or aliens will make themselves known on that date after looking over the evidence.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arioch View Post
    @garbonzo --

    Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
    Is the guy saying Daniel predicted the exact date? Lucky guess you are saying?

  5. #65
    Valued Senior Member Arioch's Avatar
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    @garbonzo --

    No, Daniel(if such a man existed) didn't predict the exact date. And yes, a lucky guess is an adequate explanation for this.

    The bible makes a lot of predictions, and while some have come true(though mostly the self-fulfilling ones), the most important ones(such as the return of Jesus occurring within his follower's lifetimes) are either ignored by theologians or they claim that they will be fulfilled someday. And they very well may be, however given enough time literally everything will happen some day.

  6. #66
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    My reply:

    Hello. I took some time to research this for a few days. Here is what I've came up with:
    The only "prophecy" that can be verifiably confirmed on Daniel's part is that, yes, Jerusaluem was rebuilt. That isn't very much of a prophecy at all. In 2008 when the USA had a financial collapse, and we were in a recession, there were those that predicted that the USA would come out of it. Well now their "prophecy" has come true, with the stock market the highest it has been in 4 years. I mean, think about it, if you were apart of a civilization that was destroyed, you would naturally want it to come back. It would be different if he predicted the exact date, which I think the Jehovah's Witnesses try to say he did, but that falls short, also.
    Not only that, but Daniel had many failed prophecies as well.
    Regarding Jesus:
    The problem is, there's no evidence that Jesus even existed. It is wholly plausible that the authors of the gospels wrote the story of Jesus to fit the "prophecies" of Daniel. You would need corroborating evidence to reject the null hypothesis.
    Do you believe that Odin is God and that Thor is the son of Odin?
    1. Thor is the son of Odin.
    2. Odin is a god.
    3. Odin promised the destruction of the ice people.
    4. There are no ice people around.
    5. Therefore, Odin is God and Thor is his son.
    Same logic.
    Kind Regards.
    His reply:

    Hi Ray,

    There is a great deal of evidence that Jesus existed! Few reputable historians, no matter how biased against the Christian faith they may be, would go so far as to deny the historicity of Jesus. I invite you read the following article: http://www.blueletterbible.org/comme...0the%20Messiah, and also http://jewishchristianlit.com/Topics/JewishJesus/.


    Even the antichristian Jewish Talmud acknowledges his existance! Here are the instances of this:
    Jesus as a sorcerer with disciples (b Sanh 43a-b)
    Healing in the name of Jesus (Hul 2:22f; AZ 2:22/12; y Shab 124:4/13; QohR 1:8; b AZ 27b)
    As a torah teacher (b AZ 17a; Hul 2:24; QohR 1:8)
    As a son or disciple that turned out badly (Sanh 193a/b; Ber 17b)
    As a frivolous disciple who practiced magic and turned to idolatry(Sanh 107b; Sot 47a)
    Jesus' punishment in hell (b Git 56b, 57a)
    Jesus' execution (b Sanh 43a-b)
    Jesus as the son of Mary (Shab 104b, Sanh 67a)
    I have spent a great deal of time studying the book of Daniel in detail, and I can show you how one prophecy after another in it has been remarkably fulfilled. Daniel 11:40-45 is the only passage one might claim has failed with a legitimate sounding argument. That's because if this continues to speak of Antiochus Epiphanes, who is described previously in Daniel 11:21-34, then yes, it has indeed failed, because the events described in 41-45 did not happen in that king's lifetime. However, the words "the end time" in verses 35 and 40 probably indicate a transition to the end times, at which time another king will persecute the Israelites whom Antiochus IV typifies. Indeed, there are many similarities between the Antichrist described in the NT and Antiochus IV Epiphanes, notably that both claim to be God, persecute the Jewish people terribly, and desecrate the temple. These striking similarities are why I think John refers to the future Antichrist in the book of Revelation as "the beast who once was, and now is not." (Rev 17:11).

    Extrabiblical evidences of the hstoricity of Jesus are not the only testimonies of him that must be taken into account. Don't forget that the Pauline epistles were all written during that Apostle's lifetime, only a few decades after the crucifixion of Christ. Even most naturalistic historians do not deny their Pauline authorship or their early date. In them Paul testified that he persecuted the early Christians. How strange that that he would feel the need to persecute the followers of a man who never existed! Quite the contrary, Paul said that most of the eyewitnesses of the ressurection of Jesus were still alive at the time he wrote one of his epistles:

    I Cor. 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
    9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God.

    Paul's dramatic conversion must also be taken into account. How could a man who was throwing Christians into prison become such a dedicated follower of Christ? Luke, who wrote the book of Acts and the gospel of Luke, was a companion fo the Apostle Paul. Furthermore, John and Matthew were both apostles of Jesus. Their gospels and the book of Acts, therefore, are eyewitess accounts.

    Jerusalem was rebuilt, by the way, exactly 49 years after the command of Xerxes to rebuild it, exactly as Daniel had predicted. This coincided with the close of the OT canon, which is also remarkable. So comparing that to a prediction that the US would come out of a recession is hardly comparing apples with apples!

    If you are so motivated to deny Daniel's remarkably fulfilled prophecy regarding the exact time the Messiah would come, that you would go so far as to deny the historicity of Jesus, then it seems obvious that you have already closed your mind to any evidence that might go against your naturalistic presuppositions. You strike me as a man who, just for the fun of it, wants to "convert" a strong believer to agnosticism, and not as someone who is writing because He is really seeking the truth about the Jesus or the Bible.

    If you are motivated to truly seek God and discover if He is real, you are of course welcome to write me back. Otherwise, please, don't waste my time or yours.


    Best Wishes,

    Rusty

  7. #67
    Valued Senior Member Arioch's Avatar
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    His entire reply is nothing but one very long appeal to personal incredulity. Furthermore it's now a well known fact that not only were the gospels written much later than the lifetimes of any disciples Jesus may have had, but that they were written by people who had a vested interest in making things line up "properly"(i.e. christians).

    Also note his last paragraph there, basically telling you that he doesn't want to hear anything but acceptance of his message and to leave him alone if you're even remotely skeptical. He doesn't want challenge or to figure out if he's right. He's already made up his mind that he's right and won't change his mind for anything. He's starting with a conclusion of dubious validity and working his way backwards, and you know what they say, garbage in, garbage out.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arioch View Post
    His entire reply is nothing but one very long appeal to personal incredulity. Furthermore it's now a well known fact that not only were the gospels written much later than the lifetimes of any disciples Jesus may have had, but that they were written by people who had a vested interest in making things line up "properly"(i.e. christians).

    Also note his last paragraph there, basically telling you that he doesn't want to hear anything but acceptance of his message and to leave him alone if you're even remotely skeptical. He doesn't want challenge or to figure out if he's right. He's already made up his mind that he's right and won't change his mind for anything. He's starting with a conclusion of dubious validity and working his way backwards, and you know what they say, garbage in, garbage out.
    Haha. What are your sources for your first paragraph, though? Obviously he won't just accept that. xD

  9. #69
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    According to Stephen L Harris and many other scholars, the authorship is both unknown and very likely occurred much later than the actual events. The earliest recorded agreement on the authorship of the gospels was in the second century, well after the supposed death of Jesus. Of course, the authorship of the gospels is actually quite irrelevant as they can't agree on many relevant points(such as the birthplace of Jesus or the goings on at the time).

    Obviously though, no matter what you tell this man he won't accept it. Be prepared for this man to pull all sorts of excuses out of his ass, ranging from people just being wrong to full blown conspiracy theories. He's already displayed a willingness to embrace fallacy simply to avoid coming out and saying that he doesn't know, and that never bodes well for any discussion.

  10. #70
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    Sorry for the late reply. I get bouts of laziness for no reason, lol.

    His response:

    Yes, Daniel prophesied the exact date that Jerusalem would be rebuilt - 49 years after the decree would be given to rebuild it. That date also marked the close of the OT canon with the book of Malachi.

    For my own part, I must confess that I was unwilling to simply take the Bible at it's word - I approached it with much skepticism. It had to earn my trust. And it did.
    So he is saying that Daniel prophesied the exact date....

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