The need for the debasement of religion

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by aaqucnaona, Feb 9, 2012.

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Is moderation and secularisation essential for the future of our civilization?

  1. Yes

    83.3%
  2. No

    16.7%
  1. aaqucnaona This sentence is a lie Valued Senior Member

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    Religion is one of the human endeavors - it was an extremely powerful and useful one for a large part of our history - credit must be given where it is due. But like all endeavours, it has a cost - the cost of blind faith, dogma, intolerance, prejudice and violence. Throughout history, cultural, social, political and scientific utilities of religion had paid for its cost. Today, this cost is most apparent in the political, ideological and military friction between the west and the middle east. Fundamentalism, evangelism, creationism, extremism are other examples of the cost of religion. Such friction can and does arise for many other reasons - oil, power, money, greed, women, territorialism and nationalism. These are different from other possible reasons for this, such as natural disasters, food failure or basic living standards - they are different because they represent faults or unpatched parts of our civilization.

    However, religion is the only costly endevear that cant pay for itself anymore - oil gives energy, power glues together societies and cultures, money gets goods, greed runs economies, women give sex^, territorialism gives some safety, nationalism gives pride - Religion does nothing that is greater than its harms. Why? Because most of the previous uses of religion have been replaced - religion for socialization [Mass media], explainations [Science], treatment [medicine], applications [psychology] and guidance [philosophy]. Religion has truely become a relic, a dying zombie clutching onto anything that can help it survive for a little more before the belief in supernatural inevitably collapses in a progressing and developed post-capitalist/scientific/future society - this is why religions seems to be escalating, with fundamentalists and extremists having the second largest expansion in numbers [topped only by non-belief] in the last decade. This is also why it is becoming the single most unneccesary object that is also potentially harmful. Other of the failings of human civilisation have two important features that religions dont - they have practical uses and they are open to deliberation and compromise - this is why religion needs to recede, atleast into moderation. It is no something you want in large quantities when we are a global community, capable of massive annihilation of any or all parts of our planet.

    Moreover, in such a idealist society as I described, there will have to be very few 'masses' or labourers, only specialists and experts, operatives and organisers. Only such a refined, developed and sophisticated society can 'let go of God" and only such a society can ensure safely, progress and happiness for all members of the species - a requiste for any global community. Education is the single most important thing we can do today - we have our scientists, researchers and experts, but the public, the masses, the common man are far removed and often ignorant of what is happening at the cutting edge of our species' endeavours - this disconnect will become more and more pronounced and influential as numbers, ease of life and speed of development and progress increase - the result of which may hold back the intelligencia from ushering in the future. Even in a space-faring species, the common and average representative is a person perhaps equivalent to the best of a couple centuries in the past - if we are to be a true "God species" the most dominant, successful, powerful, progressive and internally fully satisfied species on this planet, then the 6 - 6.5 billion of our 7 billion individuals have to become a part of better, advanced and more sophisticated enterprises within their chosen fields of the human endeavours.

    An education which can do this can only be secular and has to be so. Such a drive to learn, to understand and know can never come to those who are certain of things they cannot even prove, explain or substantiate. High moderation and secularisation is only path I can think of that would not cause the technological and scientific infancy of a civilisation to destroy itself - because it can and because many willingly would. Fundamentism and strong theism* for a religious personal God cannot have a place in a safe, just and prosperous space-faring global community.

    *My mom is the only weak theist I have ever met/communiated with. If pushed, she would fall as far back as deism and pantheism - a long way from religion and personal God. I wonder if Wynn or Jan consider themselves strong/weak theists/agnostics.

    ^no sexism intended
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2012
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  3. mathman Valued Senior Member

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    You need to be precise in the definition of the terms used in the question.
     
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  5. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    While your argument is sound, there is no way to force the issue without intruding on personal freedom apart from a program of education. I would also argue that even without religion, human nature is violent and will destroy itself unless this trend is countered by genetic or chemical intervention.
     
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  7. aaqucnaona This sentence is a lie Valued Senior Member

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    Moderation - lessening the extremes of blind faith, total and literal belief and absolute dogmatism.

    Secularisation - Reducing or removing to influence of religion from some practice, activity, though, etc.
     
  8. aaqucnaona This sentence is a lie Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks. This was the first time an entire OP was written on the spot [developed from a small reply of mine on "Goal of life" thread].

    There are three other ways I can think of. First is powerful and well-informed attack on things we know to be true - like evolution. Second is working towards removal of taboos, social acceptance of non-belief among the masses and open discussion and debate on issues of God and religion. The third is the secularisation of the Government and the economy - removing "God" from public addresses and campaigns and withdrawl of special economic previledges to religious institutions. The education is something to be worked on now, ASAP. First and second are already being done and must increase their outreach. When they reach a crtitical mass, the third step would become possible. The issue would then we essentially resolved - with absolute belief in god or religious dogmatism debased to the level of ufology. [I cant help but think that some theist would grab at this as the evil atheist conspiracy to take over the world].

    Memetic and cultural changes would suffice.
     
  9. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    We do need moderation if we want our future to be a good one. Secularization is not necessary.
     
  10. Big Chiller Registered Senior Member

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    I think most theists including myself will vote "Yes" on the poll if the poll is based on these reasonable definitions.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2012
  11. arauca Banned Banned

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    Hey Jack the Bolsheviks , Maoist and others have tried. It seams you do't read history , so you are coming back with the same BS .
     
  12. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    16,330
    and violence and bigotry and prejudice and everything else he labels as the "cost " of religion
     
  13. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    Really? Socialization is now completely covered by mass media? Perhaps for you, but most humans still desire the physical presence of others, at least according to their sexual preference. Religion is, and most likely will continue being, highly valued by those who share specific beliefs. The idea that you can devalue it as an outsider is preposterous. Any such attempt only further strengthens the dichotomy which draws such people together. Socializing with like-minded people is the exact same reason you find it useful and valuable to post on this forum.

    And how exactly is this relevant to comparative religion? Seems to be preaching against all religion.
     
  14. arauca Banned Banned

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    4,564

    I think this fellow is struggling inside , so he tends to convince himself against a spiritual life , so he is constantly attacking religion .
     
  15. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    6,152
    We can't imagine a world in which there is no religion, nor one that has arrived there by a rationalization such as given here. Yet everytime religiosity rears its ugly head in the news, trying to usurp politics, to persuade people toward a right wing agenda, these small daily or weekly perturbations to the public psyche take their toll, dragging us down like broken old men who have forgotten how to stand up and fight for what they believe in. Really we just want to be left alone. It seems we can't have freedom of religion without losing our freedom from religion.

    It's not the religion that we despise, since, in its pure form it will lift us up whenever oppression drags us down. If all religion did was shelter the homeless, feed the starving, etc., we would be grateful for it and probably want to enshrine it, say, carving those words on the wall of Grand Canyon, or maybe even on the moon in 200 mile long letters. The problem is with religiosity, which is religion's evil twin, constantly gunning for us. Religiosity is the wolf in sheep's clothing which rains down all the crap mentioned in the OP. We use the term religion and religiosity interchangeably because we have to, we've been backed into a corner by their incessant tampering with our daily affairs, and they themselves demand to be called a religion. So be it. Let Jesus be the poster boy for the NRA, the DoD, and maybe if you pray hard enough, just before the crucified scarecrow gives up the ghost, maybe he'll turn all the illegal aliens into pillars of salt. And, of course, send all the murderous whores who use contraception or abortion, immediately to a fiery lake with brimstone around the neck. That'll teach 'em.

    I would be in favor of a public policy banning any group that deviates from its own established creed from keeping its non-profit status. House arrest and some mild harassment would be suitable. How about an ecumenical goon squad that tries them for heresy, and if found guilty, they get something more than 50 lashes with a wet noodle. These could be drawn from the experts - the Catholic Church, with all the other orthodoxies in tow, just to show we mean business. A team of expert historians could help recreate the spirit of the Inquisition - with a Revenge of the Nerds flavor. Payback. They could be sentenced, not just to community service, but also to dunking booths, pie throwing events, mild stuff like that, just to let them know how we really feel. And of course their community service should be to man a site that gives saunas and aroma therapy to traumatized illegals that had to endure an abortion out of fear and poverty. And the perps should have to wash their feet, and go to their houses and spruce them up and serve them spaghetti and play accordion for them, all of this to let the suffering women know they are sorry for being knuckleheaded bigots.

    All we need is a movement. A constitutional amendment, repealing the freedom of religion clause for creed violators is about all that's required. It's not beyond the scope of law. A wave of referenda with the issue on the ballot, two thirds of the house and senate, three fourths of the state assemblies, and you're in like Flint.

    Also, they should have to wear devil horns (anyone who steals my idea: please use spidergoat's as the model) which would serve as a serious deterrent. Imagine Sarah Palin, the minute she first announced she wanted to overturn Roe v Wade, dragged from the ABC studios with a spiked dog collar and chains, and taken straight across the street to the neighborhood office of the Federal Lord Inquisitor for summary judgement. And then everything that she had heaped on her after that would have been the subject the Sarah Palin Show, instead of some crap about her shooting moose. And the advertising proceeds would have gone to to support Planned Parenthood, so the other recent story wouldn't have shown up like a pimple on the face of our national self-esteem.

    These things are not completely beyond our grasp. It just takes willpower. Hey I'll sign up. So yeah I think the OP has some good fodder for a whole new way to think about how to pull the thorn out of our collective ass.
     
  16. aaqucnaona This sentence is a lie Valued Senior Member

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    You are using the ever popular theistic fallacy of equivocation. Now we know and can do much more than before - what I suggested is the natural consequence of this and it must be addressed and encouraged for smooth and quick progress of our species. And this is not about SUBVERSION of religion, it is about moderation and secularisation - nuclear weapons dont belong with people who are fit to be in the bronze age.
     
  17. aaqucnaona This sentence is a lie Valued Senior Member

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    Secularization is the natural outcome of moderation - as dogmas are lifted, absolutism is abandoned and authoritainism rejected - the reduction of religious importance and openess to non-religious or all-religious ideas would result.
     
  18. aaqucnaona This sentence is a lie Valued Senior Member

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    Spirituality is not equal to religion. I attack religion because it is a stupid and insane relic from the past which is proving to be very costly for us to maintain.
     
  19. aaqucnaona This sentence is a lie Valued Senior Member

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    Those are not freedoms.
     
  20. aaqucnaona This sentence is a lie Valued Senior Member

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    I am not preaching against religion. Can you, as a theist or not, own up to the actual costs of religion in todays world? Do you understand the simple and ONLY point I am making here - that religious fundamentalism and dogmatism needs to go?

    And no, of course mass media has not taken over completely, and I hope it never will. My point is that the mass media now makes it possible to destroy creationists like shooting fish in barrels while only the most elite scholars could do that a century before. Similiarly, it has made it possible for us to have is conversation. That is what I mean about mass media "encroaching" upon religious socialization - sorry I didn't make it that clear in the OP.

    And I love this site NOT because Non-believers or science oriented people are the majority - but because this site has smart, intelligent, well informed and honest people - which are the only people you can sensibly converse with on these topics.
     
  21. aaqucnaona This sentence is a lie Valued Senior Member

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    Indeed.

    This is not a thread proposing SUBVERSION of Theism - it simply is an argument for reducing the importance and influence of religion in our lives.
     
  22. Xotica Everyday I’m Shufflin Registered Senior Member

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    Relentlessly. An OCB crusade.
     
  23. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    If that would be so, then acting in blind faith, dogmatically, intolerantly, with prejudice and violence would make a person religious. But it doesn't.
     

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