Religion doesnt make sense

hi. ive had a catholic education from a catholic school from kindergarten through high school. thats a little background just in case i sound like a freak or stupid or something.

am i the only one that thinks religion makes no sense?

out of all the religions in the world, it makes no sense that one would be right over another. in the bible, whenever it answeres a common human question, nad even when priests or whoever answer it, its always a bullshit answer. its that god works in mysterious ways, or its just too complex for us to understand. sounds like bullshit to me. sounds like some half-assed answer you'd tell a kid or something, just to shut them up and not dwell on it any further. i notice that whenever people say prayers they say it from memory, and do not really know what they're saying but just saying it out of habit (much like the pledge of alleigence). i notice that a seeming majority of the extremists in the world have religious motives. no creation story makes sense. whenever some scientific fact conflicts with something in the bible, they make up some bullshit excuse like "it was just said to teach a lesson" or "dont take it for face value, see what it's trying to teach" or some shit like that. being at a catholic school all of my life, you see soo much hypocrasy it really makes you wonder. whenever i asked some teacher or something about this, they say its all about faith. more bullshit. faith isnt believing in some dude you've never seen, but have only heard of in some old book that was partially mis-translated from its transition from hebrew to english (or whatever else). that sounds like stupidity to me. makes more sense that jesus was some cult leader that died and his life story was blown way out of proportion. he was probably like hitler, charismatic and all that, look at the success hitler had. and wthey say that god wanted us to have free choice and choose for ourselves. well, since he gave us a mind, wouldnt he want us to use it? and by thinking logically, i come to a conclusion that its all bullshit. i think god would be on my side if he's there. also, heaven doesnt make sense. eternal hapiness in some holy place? man, being anywhere for eternity seems like it would get boring. reincarnation makes more sense. but as for the answer to that question and any other of those ill just leave it at "i dunno".

i dunno, sorry if this has been brought up before, but i haven't bothered reading the previous posts (too tired).

and please if you're some high strung religious fanatical jesus freak please refrain from posting. going to a catholic school for 13 years i've heard enough mindless, soap-box, praise the lord, he will strike you down, you're evil, god forgives you, you poor lost soul you just don't get it, blah blah blah mumbo jumbo to last a life-time.

if anyone has kind of the same views please let me know, just so i dont think im crazy.

also, if u can come to any other conclusions that rely on rational logical thinking and none of that "faith" bullshit please post too, im interested in what you all think.

thx

 

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All religions are based on the fictional idea of a supernatural realm. There is no factual basis. All answers you are given by a religious person will always be based on fairy stories.

So of course religions don't make sense.

 

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Cool

Nope, I think religion makes no sense whatsoever as a non-denominational theist.

Yep, they are brainwashed and the most hypocritical people ever.

Orthodoxy could well be one of the worst institutions ever.

"I'm in, you're out" - "I'm good, you're bad."

I suppose it is even worse than heresy.

I share with you the same view. Religion is BS for the most part, but it does teaches some great things, it just needs to lay off from science.

 

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Without sarcasm (I promise!)

Grey Seal--

Without sarcasm, as sarcastic as it might seem (I promise): I'm not entirely sure religion is supposed to make sense.

Think of it--as such--in somewhat Catholic terms. I believe it was Anselm who wrote that God is that which is greater than anything one can imagine. (Of course, Anselm also wrote that because he couldn't see God, he knew God exists. Make of that what you will.)

Or think of it like computers. We humans are somewhat limited compared to what we can imagine because that's the limit of our brains. Given the size of the Universe, and all of the data available from various perspectives, there is nothing which can begin to conceive of the whole of creation, much less that which is claimed to have dominion over the real Universe. Microsoft Word, in its present incarnation, would not fit on the first ... four hard drives I ever used. Likewise the Universe itself, and the idea of God.

People take from that unspeakably large idea what is important to them and very often treat it as if that miniscule flake of insight is the whole of knowledge. Many people, I've found, don't know what to do with the divine spark, and probably wouldn't know it even if it flew up their yang. (Even I can't claim to recognize it, or even demonstrate its existence, but in terms of a presumption of God, I feel safe with the idea.)

The end result? A mess.

I'll try to make more sense later.

thanx,
Tiassa

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makes sense to me, so far. going any further with it?
Ever read Orson Scott Card, Tiassa?

 

Hi there Grey Seal.

I am a religious man. I am religious based on pure logic. I wish to answer your post. I'll do it courteously and politely, because I am not here to offend. So let's dig in...

==============================================
Grey Seal wrote:
am i the only one that thinks religion makes no sense?
==============================================

No you're not. Many people think religion is all messed up. Many devoutly religious people have problems with organized religion.

For instance, I believe the Catholic church has done more to make atheists than any other church. That's not to say ALL Catholics are like this, but as an organization, the Catholic Church, with their outdated traditions and un-scriptural ordinances, has caused many a young person (such as yourself) to dismiss as hog-tripe the notion of God.

Many other denominations have wacko offshoots that cater to eccentrics and weed out level-headedness.


==============================================
Grey Seal wrote:
out of all the religions in the world, it makes no sense that one would be right over another.
==============================================

Respectfully, this is not true.

Here in America our law states that all people are innocent until proven guilty. Most of the rest of the world believes something else. There are many contrary opinions on the subject but does that negate the truthfullness of the original premise? No.

==============================================
Grey Seal wrote:
in the bible, whenever it answeres a common human question, nad even when priests or whoever answer it, its always a bullshit answer. its that god works in mysterious ways, or its just too complex for us to understand. sounds like bullshit to me. sounds like some half-assed answer you'd tell a kid or something, just to shut them up and not dwell on it any further.
==============================================


Just because the people you talked to were unknowledgable, or too lazy to answer your questions does not mean that the answers you sought do not exist.

Most Christians who are firmly rooted in scripture would be able to answer many of your questions. That said, some questions simply DO NOT have an answer.


==============================================
Grey Seal wrote:
i notice that whenever people say prayers they say it from memory, and do not really know what they're saying but just saying it out of habit (much like the pledge of alleigence).
==============================================


That is mostly a Catholic thing.

Remember it says in the Bible in Matthew 6:7 "...when you pray, do not heap up phrases (multiply words, repeating the same ones over and over) as the Gentiles do, for they think they will be heard for their much speaking."

In protestant Churches the believer prays about whatever is "on his heart".


==============================================
Grey Seal wrote:
i notice that a seeming majority of the extremists in the world have religious motives.
==============================================

So? Most murders are committed by men. Are all men evil? We must be carefull with "blanket statements".


==============================================
Grey Seal wrote:
no creation story makes sense. whenever some scientific fact conflicts with something in the bible, they make up some bullshit excuse like "it was just said to teach a lesson" or "dont take it for face value, see what it's trying to teach" or some shit like that.
==============================================


Well until you can get around "irreducible complexity", complex evolution can not be. For instance, it takes DNA for a protien molecule to assemble with other proteins in order to create a cell. But, there must be proteins to create the DNA. Remove one component and the system fails. How could this have evolved? This is just one of MANY examples.


==============================================
Grey Seal wrote:
being at a catholic school all of my life, you see soo much hypocrasy it really makes you wonder.
==============================================


There is plenty of hypocrisy to go around. When you are religious, you don't stop being human and vulnerable to the things that all humans are sometimes guilty of. The difference is that the religious man must eventually answer to a higher authority for his bad choices.


==============================================
Grey Seal wrote:
whenever i asked some teacher or something about this, they say its all about faith. more bullshit. faith isnt believing in some dude you've never seen, but have only heard of in some old book that was partially mis-translated from its transition from hebrew to english (or whatever else). that sounds like stupidity to me.
==============================================


Every human exercises faith (in one form or another) every day. Why is it that , in the context of religion, faith is somehow bad?

==============================================
Grey Seal wrote:
makes more sense that jesus was some cult leader that died and his life story was blown way out of proportion. he was probably like hitler, charismatic and all that, look at the success hitler had.
==============================================


To you that makes more sense. To me it doesn't. You have a right to believe whatever you want.


==============================================
Grey Seal wrote:
and they say that god wanted us to have free choice and choose for ourselves. well, since he gave us a mind, wouldnt he want us to use it? and by thinking logically, i come to a conclusion that its all bullshit. i think god would be on my side if he's there.
==============================================


Indeed you are free to choose. For instance look at yourself. Although indoctrinated for 13 years to believe in God, you now claim to reject any belief in him. Did you not make up your own mind?


==============================================
Grey Seal wrote:
also, heaven doesnt make sense. eternal hapiness in some holy place? man, being anywhere for eternity seems like it would get boring.
==============================================


Not if it was your favorite place to be. When one gets to Heaven, they are a different creature than when they are on Earth. When we die, what we like and can endure and embrace will then be in the context of a spiritual nature.


==============================================
Grey Seal wrote:
reincarnation makes more sense. but as for the answer to that question and any other of those ill just leave it at "i dunno".
==============================================


To you that makes more sense. To me it doesn't. You have a right to believe whatever you want.


==============================================
Grey Seal wrote:
...please if you're some high strung religious fanatical jesus freak please refrain from posting. going to a catholic school for 13 years i've heard enough mindless, soap-box, praise the lord, he will strike you down, you're evil, god forgives you, you poor lost soul you just don't get it, blah blah blah mumbo jumbo to last a life-time.
==============================================


Well, I hope I didn't hit you with any "mindless...mumbo-jumbo" Grey Seal. Just my two cents worth.

Take care.

-Mike

 

i have a question for you, mike.

do you feel "wonder" when you consider god?

 

reason i'm asking, is that people feel... incomplete, mostly.

some of us find some measure of completeness through god.

others find some measure through science.

neither one purports to offer all the answers, at least those whose belief comes through intelligent thought. i feel you're not one of those who is going to say belief in god does without thinking about it. if i'm wrong about you in this, i'll soon know.

i'm wondering... well the word "wonder" seems to give us a feeling our belief is superior. science, for some, leaves us with the feeling there is so much more to know and gives us relief from boredom. relief from feeling this is all there is to life. your god appears to do the same for you. what, then, makes you choose this path over another?

 

RE: wonder

Hey there Squid Vicious...

Do I feel wonder when I consider God?

You better believe it! When I think about the hugeness of a galaxy field all the way down to a tiny proton, I am stunned by the vast difference in size.

When i see that the human body can survive the most devastating physical and emotional injuries, and that the brain is still a mystery, I am in awe.

When I consider non-reducible complex relationships within organisms, I am blown away.

I go outside and look up into the sky and see the vastness of space, the billions of stars... the immensity of it all. All I can say is "Wow."

When I see things like the horsehead nebula, or two galaxies colliding, I think, I shouldn't be seeing that. It is only a fluke that man has created instruments that allow us to see these distant things. These incredible wonders have existed for millenia without our having seen them. Now we can see many of them (Thanks Hubble). But all these amazing things are in our galaxy, not only that, but "near" to us. Just think of the amazing things we will never see. Things that are in other galaxies. The mind boggles.

God made all of this. He is bigger, or supreme over all of this stuff. Yet, he died for my sins and I am given the awesome priviledge to humbly enter his "throneroom" in prayer. Formost on my mind in times like this are these scriptures:

"What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?" Job 7:17

"LORD, what is man, that thou takest knowledge of him!" Psalm 144:3

Do I wonder when I consider God?

Yes, very much!!

-Mike

 

I'm sorry to hear that in your 13 years of catholic education you don't believe. I purely believe that science has destroyed us all. My take on this "faith bullshit" isn't that it is bull shit. You don't seem very intelligent, not that you don't believe in God but that you think that faith is bullshit.

have a nice day.

 

Ekimklaw,

You appear to recognize that the universe is truly wondrous, unimaginably huge, and that we are insignificant in comparison. These are all natural things that for many people are more than enough to try to comprehend and appreciate. Why then with all that wonder do you then want to believe in an unnecessary supernatural realm?

 

Daiel – you wrote - I purely believe that science has destroyed us all.

Science is a formalized search for knowledge and truth, all that science destroys is ignorance and superstition.

Daiel – you wrote - My take on this "faith bullshit" isn't that it is bull shit. You don't seem very intelligent, not that you don't believe in God but that you think that faith is bullshit.

Faith is the ultimate source of ignorance and superstition, the realm of the gullible and stupid.

 

Yes I would agree with that, but you can't deny that it may make one stronger. But faith in "something" you do not even know, I definitely agree. Faith in a friend, or someone, is somewhat positive however; I mean IF you tell them you have faith in them.

 

Re: RE: wonder

Originally posted by Ekimklaw
Do I feel wonder when I consider God?

You better believe it! When I think about the hugeness of a galaxy field all the way down to a tiny proton, I am stunned by the vast difference in size.

When i see that the human body can survive the most devastating physical and emotional injuries, and that the brain is still a mystery, I am in awe.

When I consider non-reducible complex relationships within organisms, I am blown away.

I go outside and look up into the sky and see the vastness of space, the billions of stars... the immensity of it all. All I can say is "Wow."

ok, you do. then... how do you consider your wonder to be a different thing from a scientist (i'm using that word loosely, to describe any atheist looking at things rationally) who is observing the same things and feeling exactly the same sense of wonder?
why is your feeling different, or do you not consider it to be?

God made all of this. He is bigger, or supreme over all of this stuff. Yet, he died for my sins and I am given the awesome priviledge to humbly enter his "throneroom" in prayer. Formost on my mind in times like this are these scriptures:

"What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?" Job 7:17

"LORD, what is man, that thou takest knowledge of him!" Psalm 144:3

my impression here is that you consider man to be small. perhaps he is. but it almost sounds is if you want to believe it, that your prefer this belief, rather than believing that man is more capable than what he shows himself to be. why is this?

 

Hi there...

==============================================
Katazia wrote:
Why then with all that wonder do you then want to believe in an unnecessary supernatural realm?
==============================================


First, thanks Katazia for the question and the civil tone. I appreciate sincerity and civility.

Your question seems to imply that I believe in God for no good reason other than that I experience wonder at the universe. Such is not the case. I believe in God because I have experienced him in hundreds of different little ways throughout my life. In addition, many of my family members have also experienced him.

Understand that I believe because I am convinced of the reality of God in my life. Once I became convinced, things in the cosmos that did not seem to make sense all of a sudden made sense to me. It is hard for a believer to encapsulate in a brief easily readable post the intricacies and nuances of the believer's life.

Suffice it to say that as skeptical a person as I am, if the notion of God did not have such a strong ring of truth to it, I would drop it like a red-hot-horseshoe and descend into an epicurian haze of carnal pleasure.

My purpose here on this forum is to bring to the table the point of view of one devout rank-and-file Christian. I am NOT perfect. Not by a long shot. But i am loved by a gracious God, and i am subject to him in all things.

That in and of itself brings a profound stability to my life that I not only love, but desperately need.

-Mike

 

Grey Seal

Congratulations! You have started to think for yourself. Some people will live their whole lives imprisoned by the dogma of organized religion. You are free now in ways that many people will never know. But such freedom does come at a cost. Now you will have to watch people having the life sucked from them by the fear of the very knowledge that has set you free. My advice to you is to grow, and know that you can not save everyone. Because it is not as easy as you think.

 

The catholic church is probably the world's most efficient atheist factory. Doubly so for catholic schools. I should know. I go to one.

 

Ekimklaw,

If I assume we both observe the same universe, how is it that I have never experienced anything that could be considered godlike, or rather have seen no need to seek the supernatural to explain something I didn’t understand, and can see no need for such a being, see no evidence of such a being, and see no grain of truth in any religion? And I would consider my life perfectly acceptable without such beliefs. It would seem that from your last statement you have a need for and a dependency on religion whereas I have no such needs.

The universe contains many mysteries and we have barely begun to scratch the surface of such things. To then assert that it needed to be created and was created by the supernatural based on what can only be a rudimentary and cursory understanding, would seem extremely premature.

I don’t see any way that you could possibly substantiate your assertions. You might be correct but you have no way to know that, I think you are simply guessing.

Kat

 

Dark Master – you wrote –
*---------------------------------
Yes I would agree with that, but you can't deny that it may make one stronger. But faith in "something" you do not even know, I definitely agree. Faith in a friend, or someone, is somewhat positive however; I mean IF you tell them you have faith in them.
*---------------------------------

I refer only to the “faith” associated with religion as is commonly used as a substitute statement for religions – for example “faith based institutions”. Other uses of the word “faith” attract quite different meanings and interpretations. Having faith in a friend is based on a past experience. Religious faith has no factual substance unlike the real experience of a friend.

I would agree that having a religious faith can make one feel stronger but it is identical to having a false hope of something that is either impossible or is unlikely to occur. For example if you are convinced that sometime in your future you are going to win a major lottery then you might feel quite content that you have no need to otherwise prepare for your retirement. To depend on such an event would be extremely foolish. Religious faith offers a similar false hope but in this case it is a conviction that there is life after death.

The strength obtained through religious faith is real but its basis is no different to that of illusive vapor, it has no substance. As I stated earlier, religious faith is used by the gullible and stupid, like those who would attempt to grasp at vapor to save their life when falling off a cliff.

The valid alternative to faith is to depend only on those things that have proven substance. To wish for something more is perfectly understandable but only when such things are understood as questionable and not believed as actually real. That is the fundamental error when following a religion.

 

Yeah I agreed with you. Thanks for going more in-depth, but I already know what you mean. A good and very logical explanation though.