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Thread: Which theory could explain PSI?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by darryl View Post
    To those who are open to PSI existing.
    Officially, I don't believe in PSI. By that I mean that while I can't say with 100% confidence that it's false, I'd give it a low enough probability of being true that I generally ignore it.

    But I'm also something of a Fortean, I guess. I don't think that human beings are even close to knowing the final ultimate truth about reality. (I doubt that we ever will achieve that consummation.) That suggests that the unknown will probably always be out there, and if that's so, then it will probably always have the capacity to surprise us by coughing up something anomalous.

    Which theory do you believe may explain PSI (paranormal phenomena) such as telepathy, clairvoyance, psychokinesis, near-death experiences or apparitions etc?
    'Believe' is the wrong word. This is more like speculation of a science-fictionish sort.

    John Beloff a well known parapsychologist concluded that PSI occurs becuase of dualism ie the mind and brain are separate.
    I'm inclined to see belief in PSI as kind of a religious phenomenon. And one of the motivating factors, I believe, is that these phenomena hold out the possibility that more idealistic philosophies might be true, that human beings might actually be spiritual beings more than they are physical ones, and the physical world that physics places so much emphasis on might be little more than illusion.

    I'm not particularly attracted to that kind of view, but it's basically what was driving a lot of the old 19'th century-style spiritualism and theosophy.

    Amit Goswami however in his book “The Self-Aware Universe”, lists some studies on quantum physics that may lead to an explanation of psi that agrees with the theory of a nonphysical and conceptual world.
    I guess that the contemporary versions of this philosophical idealist tradition often appeal to quantum mechanics. Especially to the quantum-idealist interpetations that place great emphasis on the physical role of "observers" (idealism's "minds", in other words) in collapsing wave functions and crystalizing discrete being.

    My own feeling is that the quantum idealist interpretations might in part be the result of early quantum physicists trying to understand their counterintuitive expermental results by turning to philosphy for help, at a time when the predominent philosphy in Germany was idealistic Kantian philsophy.

    He explains that in quantum physics, objects are not seen as definite things. Instead, objects are possibilities, viewed as something called “possibility waves”. Of course his interpretation due to his research in quantum physics has lead him to formulate idealistic monism, that only consciousness exists in the universe and everything is part of it, he argues against dualism and materialism.
    It's not impossible, by any means. But nevertheless, my own reaction is 'garbage in-garbage out'. You get bad interpretations of quantum mechanics when you base them on doubtful philosophical speculations. But that's probably not the point. The point is to finally vanquish scientific physicalism and to return to a more spiritualistic conception of the universe. That's why I referred to it as fundamentally a religious phenomenon.

    Others however have disagreed and put forward physical and materialistic theories to try and explain PSI.

    Michael Persinger claims that much of paranormal phenomena can be explained by low frequency (ELF) electromagnetic waves.
    That doesn't sound very believable to me.

    Brian Josephson has claimed that the explanation of PSI may be found in quantum physics.
    Despite the skepticism I expressed up above, that would be where I'd look first for an explanation, assuming that I became more convinced that PSI was real.

    Gerald Feinberg's concept of a tachyon, a theoretical particle that travels faster than the speed of light has been advocated by some parapsychologists who claim that it could explain some PSI phenomena.
    Physics, and reality along with it, would really be thrown for a loop (perhaps literally) if causality was temporally symmetrical and could propagate from future to past as easily as from past to future. The time travel paradoxes would show up big-time. And that, in turn, might endow macroscopic existence with some of the stranger characteristics that seems to populate microscopic reality, like superimposed probability states. It sounds outlandish, but the laws of physics do seem to be time-reveral invariant.

    I've long toyed with the sci-fi speculation that the time-travel paradoxes and the associated alternate realities stuff are in fact the exact same phenomenon on the macro-scale as the probability superpositions of quantum weirdness are on the micro-scale. Perhaps in our local region around the big bang causality propagates preferentially in one temporal direction (except for residual retrocausation for microscopic intervals), from the past towards the future away from the blast. That might in turn create time assymmetry, allow a fixed past to crystalize in the pastward direction, and neatly account for the elusiveness of the "now" instant that we all are surfing (it's the big-bang's macroscopic wave-function collapse shockwave) and for the seemingly open possibilities presumably still coexisting out there in the futureward direction.

    Charles Tart however believes PSI is completey non-physical and does not operate to material laws.
    I wonder if Tart is another one of the idealists. He would be if his new non-physical laws are mental laws instead. But yeah, if PSI exists, it might well answer to laws of a sort that we've never imagined. We can't rule that out.

    There are many theories which try and explain PSI. Which one do you advocate and why? If any?
    I like my quantum-time speculation.

    That doesn't mean that I believe that it's true though. It probably isn't.
    Last edited by Yazata; 04-09-12 at 10:36 PM.

  2. #22
    That doesn't sound very believable to me.
    I can't say I am suprised by your response here, most folk say this. A material/physical explanation for paranormal phenomena?? Has never gained much support for a number of reasons.

    1. Most parapsychologists seem to reject any material/physical explanations mainly becase they don't want them!
    2. It appears most parapsychologists only support metaphysical fairytales as theories for PSI such as idealism, they do not want a physical explanation.
    3. Parapsychology (PSI) has not been confirmed by mainstream science, theres no repeatable evidence, so skeptics are not going to bother advocating a theory for something which does not exist!

    Others however have disagreed and put forward physical and materialistic theories to try and explain PSI.

    Michael Persinger claims that much of paranormal phenomena can be explained by low frequency (ELF) electromagnetic waves.
    Are there any peer reviewed papers for parapsychology theories? Believe it or not the work of Michael Persinger is the closest, also note how Persingers claims have been confirmed and repeated by other researchers - I am not talking about his telepathy claims or remote reviewing here I am talking about how ELF waves has been shown to cause hallucinations in people - which could explain religious, mystical experiences and other reported paranormal experiences etc.

    The closest that we have is the electromagnetic theory, but even these are peer reviewed by parapsychology organizations, not any mainstream scientific ones:

    See the work of Persinger linking paranormal to ELF field and geomagnetism

    Persinger, M.A. (1979). "ELF field mediation in spontaneous PSI events: direct information transfer or conditioned elicitation?". Psychoenergetic Systems 3: 155-169

    Persinger, M.A. (1987). "Spontaneous telepathic experiences from Phantasms of the Living and low global geomagnetic activity". Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research 81: 23-36.

    Here is some information about the electromagnetic hypothesis.

    Electromagnetic hypothesis

    The electromagnetic hypothesis can be traced to the work of independent researchers such as Michael Persinger who have claimed that electromagnetism can affect human perception. The hypothesis claims that if the human brain is exposed to high levels of electromagnetism then it can disturb the normal processes of the brain and cause altered states of consciousness, hallucinations and types of visionary experience. Persinger claims this may explain some UFO sightings as well as other paranormal phenomena.[26][27][28][29] Persinger has also linked geomagnetism to paranormal phenomena.[30] Other researchers have confirmed the work of Persinger that the human mind can become influenced by electromagnetism and lead to paranormal effects.[31][32][33]

    A notable advocate of the electromagnetic hypothesis is Albert Budden author of the book Electric UFOs (1998).[34] Budden calls his hypothesis the "electro-staging hypothesis", he claims that electromagnetic fields can induce hallucinations which can appear very realistic to the witness.
    I also managed to find these two:

    Brovetto, P. and V. Maxia. (2008). “Some conjectures about the mechanism of poltergeist phenomenon.” NeuroQuantology 6(2): 1-8.

    Roll, William.G. (2003). “Poltergeists, Electromagnetism and Consciousness.” Journal of Scientific Exploration 17(1): 75–86

    Note how Journal of Scientific Exploration is a fringe science science journal written by parapsychologists and so is NeuroQuantology.

    In short - Mainstream science has not accepted any theory of PSI (even if that theory if physical).

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by darryl View Post
    To those who are open to PSI existing. Which theory do you believe may explain PSI (paranormal phenomena) such as telepathy, clairvoyance, psychokinesis, near-death experiences or apparitions etc?

    John Beloff a well known parapsychologist concluded that PSI occurs becuase of dualism ie the mind and brain are separate. Amit Goswami however in his book “The Self-Aware Universe”, lists some studies on quantum physics that may lead to an explanation of psi that agrees with the theory of a nonphysical and conceptual world. He explains that in quantum physics, objects are not seen as definite things. Instead, objects are possibilities, viewed as something called “possibility waves”. Of course his interpretation due to his research in quantum physics has lead him to formulate idealistic monism, that only consciousness exists in the universe and everything is part of it, he argues against dualism and materialism.

    Others however have disagreed and put forward physical and materialistic theories to try and explain PSI.

    Michael Persinger claims that much of paranormal phenomena can be explained by low frequency (ELF) electromagnetic waves.

    Brian Josephson has claimed that the explanation of PSI may be found in quantum physics. Gerald Feinberg's concept of a tachyon, a theoretical particle that travels faster than the speed of light has been advocated by some parapsychologists who claim that it could explain some PSI phenomena.

    Charles Tart however believes PSI is completey non-physical and does not operate to material laws.

    There are many theories which try and explain PSI. Which one do you advocate and why? If any?
    I wish it did, I spent many a borred, sleepless night (not sleepless for this reason) trying to move stuff or start a little fire or whatever. Unfortunately, it never worked for me. Also, every study done on it indicates that it doesn't work.

  4. #24

    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by Believe View Post
    I wish it did, I spent many a borred, sleepless night (not sleepless for this reason) trying to move stuff or start a little fire or whatever. Unfortunately, it never worked for me. Also, every study done on it indicates that it doesn't work.
    Very true.

    If Psi exists in humans, then why is no repeatable evidence for it? Why can I not just go into my kitchen now and start moving about objects with my mind? Why can I not do telepathy at will? Proponents of parapsychology have no explanation for this, or they may reply that "the conditions have to be right". Its been over 150 years and these parapsychologists have yet to produce any repeatable evidence. Theres 1000s of books filled with anomous reports and personal experiences, but sadly no repeatable data.

  5. #25
    there is a life force that we have not investigated

    and this life force has energy unto its self
    A very interesting idea, but not one many scientists would support today.

    Have you seen:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odic_force

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by ameliewakelin View Post
    Regarding PSI, I would say there has to be a physical explanation for the phenomena, I believe it does fit in with the natural world. I am searching for a physical explanation and have come across quite afew (I will touch on this at some point). You say PSI it at odds with physics that is where I disagree.

    There have been a handful of physical theories to explain PSI. They fit in with physical laws, we don't need to rewrite physics to account for them, just most people are not exposed to these theories.

    The downfall of parapsychology was when investigators started invoking dualism and nonphysical theories. Mainstream science then can dismiss PSI research as pseudoscience and that exactly what has happened.

    It would be interesting to note that many Soviet scientists wanted a purely physical materialistic explanation for PSI and ended up supporting the electromagnetic theory. Alot of reported PSI phenonmena can be explained by electomagnetism. Some scientists have pointed out that when the human brain is exposed to high levels of electromagnetic activity then the normal functions of the brain are disturbed and all kinds of strange things can happen, altered states of consciousness, hallucinations etc.
    Reply With Quote
    It's pretty hard to scientifically support something that we have so far only disproven in every experiment, but do tell.

  7. #27

    Exclamation

    Regarding PSI, I would say there has to be a physical explanation for the phenomena, I believe it does fit in with the natural world. I am searching for a physical explanation and have come across quite afew (I will touch on this at some point). You say PSI it at odds with physics that is where I disagree.

    There have been a handful of physical theories to explain PSI. They fit in with physical laws, we don't need to rewrite physics to account for them, just most people are not exposed to these theories.

    The downfall of parapsychology was when investigators started invoking dualism and nonphysical theories. Mainstream science then can dismiss PSI research as pseudoscience and that exactly what has happened.

    It would be interesting to note that many Soviet scientists wanted a purely physical materialistic explanation for PSI and ended up supporting the electromagnetic theory. Alot of reported PSI phenonmena can be explained by electomagnetism. Some scientists have pointed out that when the human brain is exposed to high levels of electromagnetic activity then the normal functions of the brain are disturbed and all kinds of strange things can happen, altered states of consciousness, hallucinations etc.
    http://forum.mind-energy.net/81896-post18.html


    ameliewakelin is not the author of that post, it comes from another forum, from months ago.

  8. #28
    interconnectedness or psi forms of empathy and the like can be explained as can why it is virually impossible to evidence this phenonema empirically, except as intuitive or instinctive reactions and experience. ie. Deliberate use of psi immediately neutralises it's reliability to the point of nonsense from a deliberate ability empirical pov.

    Zero Point Theory can account for the mechanism for how FTL communication can occur re: quantum entanglements etc. instantaneous communications which directly relates to the universal constancy of gravity, and how this connectes via the zero point all things of substance in zero dimensional space.
    the theory can be found at
    http://zeropointtheory.com for those that are interested.
    It is a site in development but should offer a complete enough view point on this issue.
    The theory also offers a solution to the universal contancy issue, even when the universe undergoes cosmic expansion.
    It can be extended to include inertia, and the why and what of zero point energy.
    It provides the linchpin between all fields of intellectual endeavour and a way to understand mans precoccupation with power and religion etc.
    but most importantly it provides a way in which science can re-approach it's attitude towards the issues of mental illness and other socio-psychic conditions suchas asthma, ADHD, SIDS etc.
    Last edited by Quantum Quack; 05-30-12 at 01:47 AM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum Quack View Post
    Deliberate use of psi immediately neutralises it's reliability to the point of nonsense from a deliberate ability empirical pov.
    Gee, how convinient!

    By the way, I can become invisible; but only when you are not looking at me. If you look in my direction I will imediately reapear.

    I find these woo-woo guys kinda cute but also a little pathetic.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by origin View Post
    Gee, how convinient!

    By the way, I can become invisible; but only when you are not looking at me. If you look in my direction I will imediately reapear.

    I find these woo-woo guys kinda cute but also a little pathetic.
    it is rather when you consider what is at stake if this was not the case.
    People have been trying to exert mind control manipulations for ages.
    You are damned lucky that this is not so easy to accomplish.
    Your freedom to determine your own future is at stake.

  11. #31
    ...and you know what happens when someone tries to manipulate you psychically... it is the main reason for relationship failure, innate or deliberate pressure being applied to "force" someone eles to do or think the way they want them to..
    It is also the main reason for war and national conflict.

    So it is little wonder is it not that it would be a bit more difficult to gain a better mastership, if not impossible for most, than your proverbial walk in the park. [ JFK ex USA President as a good example of mastership and failure as was Adolf Hitler etc etc]

    The mechanism for psychic connectivitiy is also the mechanism for universal consciousness/unconsciousness and it is also the mechanism for the inconnectedness of all substance - the universal constant - source of gravity - Higgs Boson - God - call it what you like.
    Most people have no idea what they are experiencing and what they are "playing" games with when they contemplate deliberately manipulating using will power only.

    One of the main reasons for a world at war is because so many people get on their knees and pray for peace. The pressure exerted is interpreted by our minds and hearts as manipulation. [a loss of freedom - what I call, self determination violations]

    This is why religion is both a saving grace and also a reason for the existence of hell on Earth.

    It is quite easy to understand once you realise that the "harder you push the slower you go" sort of paradox [ re: zero point theory attraction Paradox ] is involved.
    ...and of course a campaign to discredit psychic phenonema has been in place since day one, since man first realised his precious gift of freedom to think for himself...and what he believed was it's vulnerability to psychic oppression and the need to protect it at all costs - [ see the protection of the holygrail , Knights Templar, Freemasonry, Prior Sion, conspiracy theories etc blah blah blah]

    Why do you think discreditation of any evidence is so important [both consciously and deliberately and deeper subconscioously ] to those who fear exposure and the loss of freedom?

    http://zeropointtheory.com/cache/c/1...05f189fca8.jpg
    what do you think is at the center of all those heads, arms and legs in the rather splendid image of the creator God Brahma?
    A zero point of course...
    and that is what people are playing with, with their quest for power over others...
    ...and power over others includes "faith healing", "clairvoyency" etc regardless of "good" intent.
    Last edited by Quantum Quack; 05-30-12 at 06:47 PM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum Quack View Post
    .
    People have been trying to exert mind control manipulations for ages.
    You are damned lucky that this is not so easy to accomplish.
    I suppose I am 'damn lucky' that sex does not result in spontaneous human combustion.

  13. #33
    so you agree ....yes?

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum Quack View Post
    ...and you know what happens when someone tries to manipulate you psychically...
    Yeah... nothing.

    So it is little wonder is it not that it would be a bit more difficult to gain a better mastership, if not impossible for most, than your proverbial walk in the park. [ JFK ex USA President as a good example of mastership and failure as was Adolf Hitler etc etc]
    WTF are you talking about?

    The mechanism for psychic connectivitiy is also the mechanism for universal consciousness/unconsciousness and it is also the mechanism for the inconnectedness of all substance - the universal constant - source of gravity - Higgs Boson - God - call it what you like.
    I will call it 'silly bull shit'.

    Most people have no idea what they are experiencing and what they are "playing" games with when they contemplate deliberately manipulating using will power only.
    That is because most people are sane.

    One of the main reasons for a world at war is because so many people get on their knees and pray for peace. The pressure exerted is interpreted by our minds and hearts as manipulation. [a loss of freedom - what I call, self determination violations]
    Do you really believe this crap?

    ...and of course a campaign to discredit psychic phenonema has been in place since day one, since man first realised his precious gift of freedom to think for himself...and what he believed was it's vulnerability to psychic oppression and the need to protect it at all costs - [ see the protection of the holygrail , Knights Templar, Freemasonry, Prior Sion, conspiracy theories etc blah blah blah]
    The only part of the above I can agree with is blah blah blah.

    Why do you think discreditation of any evidence is so important [both consciously and deliberately and deeper subconscioously ] to those who fear exposure and the loss of freedom?
    No, the evidence is not discredited; there is no evidence to discredit. It is all a bunch of new age crap.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum Quack View Post
    so you agree ....yes?
    I am glad that magic is not real, if that is your point.

  16. #36
    [chuckle] oh it's real all right.... over 8 billion Euro spent searching for something that doesn't exist and proving me correct...sort of real..
    would have been better giving it to the Greeks I think...
    do you think the universe is that simple to work out and try to control?

  17. #37
    Scientists invest 8 billion Euro to find the Higgs Boson.. I wonder why? [silly buggers - nothing more than a glorified and "legitimate" God complex]
    Last edited by Quantum Quack; 05-31-12 at 09:22 AM.

  18. #38
    No, the evidence is not discredited; there is no evidence to discredit. It is all a bunch of new age crap.
    eh? freewill or the freedom to self determination aint new, that's for sure and is there any evidence of it? [plenty..]

    not to mention a famous scientist quoted as saying "spooky action at a distance.." evidence?
    and the fact that gravity is a universal constant.... now there's plenty of evidence for that...

    I ask you . "Is your own physical body not a source of gravity ?"
    is there evidence that you have a body?
    so what unifies you with every one else on this planet and in this universe and the ground you stand on?
    Have a look at http://zeropointtheory.com should be interesting ...
    why do you think they called the Higgs Boson the "God Particle"? [ even in humor]

    Last edited by Quantum Quack; 05-31-12 at 09:30 AM.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum Quack View Post
    Scientists invest 8 billion Euro to find the Higgs Boson.. I wonder why? [silly buggers - nothing more than a glorified and "legitimate" God complex]
    Have you been drinking or something? The money invested in the LHC has absolutely nothing to do with:

    1. Mind control
    2. psychic 'powers'
    3. Praying that results in war
    4. Your other psyco-babble

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum Quack View Post
    eh? freewill or the freedom to self determination aint new, that's for sure and is there any evidence of it? [plenty..]

    not to mention a famous scientist quoted as saying "spooky action at a distance.." evidence?
    and the fact that gravity is a universal constant.... now there's plenty of evidence for that...

    I ask you . "Is your own physical body not a source of gravity ?"
    is there evidence that you have a body?
    so what unifies you with every one else on this planet and in this universe and the ground you stand on?
    Have a look at http://zeropointtheory.com should be interesting ...
    why do you think they called the Higgs Boson the "God Particle"? [ even in humor]
    You seem mighty confused. Let me help clarify.
    Things that have no evidence indicating they are anything other than fantasy:

    manipulate you psychically...

    psychic connectivitiy is also the mechanism for universal consciousness/unconsciousness

    One of the main reasons for a world at war is because so many people get on their knees and pray for peace. The pressure exerted is interpreted by our minds and hearts as manipulation. [a loss of freedom - what I call, self determination violations]

    Trying to mix science and woo-woo crap is a waste of time. It is like trying to use physics to explain how Harry Potters magic wand works.

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