How is Christianity Monotheistic?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by aaqucnaona, Jan 6, 2012.

  1. aaqucnaona This sentence is a lie Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,620
    First, to all the [few, hehe] theists on Sciforums,
    This is not a bashing or a hole making, I sincerenly am trying to understand the theistic side of things.

    So how can christianity be a monotheism -
    You have the God, the son of god, holy ghost, Mother mary, the main angels, satan, many secondary angels and devils, saints and apostles and all of these are supernatural characters in the christian scriptures. Technically [like say the greek gods], these are all gods, right? Of varying powers and varying attributes, but worthy of the tag. And even if thats not true, the trinity is equally god-like in power and attributes, no? If so, how are 3 deities 1 god?
    Or is it like the 'avatars' in hinduism?
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. aaqucnaona This sentence is a lie Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,620
    Oh, I forgot to add, why is it so necessary for christians that their religion is monotheistic?
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. skaught The field its covered in blood Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,103
    A number of things:
    First, all the angels, saints, Mary Joseph etc are not seen as gods by Christians. They are just saints and angels etc. They all do have powers, but nothing near to Gods. Theres also a passage somewhere in the bible, I think in Proverbs where it says that humans are just below the angels. So angles are basically just about as powerful as us, but they live in heaven with God. As far as Satan is concerned, he's just an angel who choose to do bad things. Angels too have free will.
    As far as christians go, its pretty much only catholics who pray to beings other than God and Jesus. And a lot of christian denominations don't even pray to Jesus. Only God.

    Why is it necessary for christians to be monotheistic? Well, basically the entirety of the torah is God trying to get the Jews to realize that all other gods do not exist. Only him. I could go into more detail, but I'm at work. Maybe when I get home.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. aaqucnaona This sentence is a lie Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,620
    Man, satan has to be a very capable angel if he is just like human except that he is supernatural and still capable of proving to be a worthy antagonist for god.
    Satan cannot be just an angel, or else angels have to be min-gods like the rest of the olympians compared to zeus. How do they resolve it?
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2012
  8. ZAV Registered Member

    Messages:
    94
    Well for starters, you remove the Supernatural bit.

    When the term was first created, about 300 Years ago, it applied only to God. Angels, Souls, and other assorted entities were never described as Supernatural. Indeed, if you read actual Theology books, you will see them openly explain that while Angels are Physically more powerful than Humans, can move faster, have a broader intelligence, and can do things Humans can’t do like fly, they are still bound by Natural Law, and do not Transcend it. As Created beings, they are subject to the same Laws that Govern the Universe as every other Created being.

    The idea that there is a separate Supernatural realm populated by Angels, Spirits of the departed, and other sorts of creatures was not really a part of Jewish or Christian Theology until the late 19th and early 20th Century.

    It really wasn’t until the 20th Century and rise of Pentecostalism that the idea of Satan possessing actual Supernatural abilities and being able to work real Miracles came about. Until then he was limited to that which was mechanically possible in the Physical world according to the same Laws we are bound by.

    Angels are t’ seen as gods, they are just extremely powerful Creatures, and part of the Created order, like Humans or Stars or Rocks or Crows.


    Now, as to the rest, Skaut is correct, most forms of Christianity don’t pray to Mary and the Saints. He is mistaken in saying this is only Catholic though, as Orthodox also have the same practice. Some Anglicans do too. However, in Apostolic Churches like that, the practice is tied to the belief in them still being Alive but in new, perfected Bodies. They have a good deal more power and mental ability than a Mere Mortal on Earth, but they are still just Humans. As this is a Sci Forum, I will sue an analogy, though it is imperfect. Some people want to improve upon Humanity by Genetic Engineering or Cybernetic Enhancements. If this is possible and if it is ever accomplished, those Humans will have abilities earlier Humans never had. They can perhaps read entire Libraries in a day, or listen to 50 conversations at once and process them all. Well, that’s sort of what the Saints are Imagined to be like. They are still however limited in their abilities.


    Finally, you have the Trinity. You mention God, the Son of God, and the Holy Ghost. The problem with your understanding is that you see them as fully distinct, so three separate gods. However, according to Christian Theology, those Three are also one. It’s One God in Three Persons. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are simply different aspects of the same overall God. St. Patrick compared this to a Shamrock, which has three leaves but one Stem and is in reality one Plant. Thus the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all really just different facets of the same overall entity.
     
  9. kx000 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,134
    If you were curios of the heirarchy of Heaven

    Lord, Michael. Savior, Yeshua.------> YHWH
    Archangels--------------------->
    Sephirum---------------------->
    Cheribrum --------------------->
     
  10. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,152
    Depending on who/what you believe, from highest to lowest:

    1. seraphim
    2. cherubim
    3. thrones
    4. dominions
    5. virtues
    6. powers
    7. principalities
    8. archangels
    9. angels
     
  11. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,152
    Folks like me think so. The existence of lower "gods" has been around as long as we know. So I think you're basically right.

    Folks who take umbrage at this are quick to point out that they are not gods. It is a very old argument, going back to the era before the New Testament was settled, with various heresies popping up along the way.

    That's a matter of religious conviction. To others like me, it's just the vestigial residue of the ancient cultures from which Judeo-Christian theology evolved. Saying they are not gods, then giving them powers, is not substantially different than ancient pantheism. For folks like me it's a disclaimer which happens to be rolled up into the creed as sacred and unassailable fact.
     
  12. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    Messages:
    16,330
    Because all the personalities are borrowing from the same authority - kind of like a single personality can be president, father, and even stamp collector (IOW the same person can act in different roles) ... or if you want to get into the details of angels etc, just like a king can have a chain of ministerial delegation from his court down to the sheriff or whatever (with all such personalities being empowered to the degree that they act in accordance with the king's decree)
     
  13. wellwisher Banned Banned

    Messages:
    5,160
    One easy way to understand how the trinity is also one god (monotheism) is to look at the dozen of different Buddha statues. There is the laughing Buddha, the sitting Buddha, etc. Ever though each of these is a separate statue, it is all one person, with each characteristic treating like a separate thing (specific statue) to help differentiate each aspect. But there are all aspects of same thing.

    If someone is a father, coach, husband, writer and sportsman, this is not five people but the various aspects of one person. They may need to use different mental and physical resources for each aspect, but under it all is one Mark. If I wish to go mountain climbing I would hope the sportsman aspect of Mark is the one coming into focus.

    The problem some people seem to have with this concept could be due to the way science treats reality. It will catalog based on tiny differences and treat each item like a unique and separate thing. It does not always think in terms of how these are all the same at some level. The unique is more in demand.

    The entire dual effect has to do with the two different sides of the brain and the way they process data. The right side of the brain sees in terms of how things are similar (integral), while the left brain is more concerned with how they differ (differential). The right side sees trees in the larger context of the woods, while the left picks out species and subspecies among all the trees. The left side can lose track of the woods because of the trees (excessive details). While the right side sees the forest inspire of the trees since it sees larger patterns but may miss the details.

    Religion requires more access to right side of the brain, while science is more geared to the left side of the brain; details. If you can do both equally well, you often have to walk alone since you see details in and out of context with larger order.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2012
  14. gmilam Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,522
    If you get an answer that doesn't make your head swim with contradictions, let me in on it.

    And when people try to tell you that Jesus is God, then ask them why Jesus prayed to himself.
     
  15. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,152
    Because he is a they. Straight polytheism. If you read it literally there are at least two Jesuses born. Both had a Joseph and Mary, but the Josephs are two different guys. In other words, there are two different grandpas, so obviously there are two different Jesuses:



    and the plot gets really tangled from there on.
     
  16. kx000 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,134
    Joseph was the father of Jesus in the sense he watched over the young baby, and claimed to be his father to protect the truth, that simple.
     
  17. skaught The field its covered in blood Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,103
    hmm... in my haste to post at work, I may have misspoke somewhat. The angels are above humans, but just barely. They do have the ability, like God, to be in more than one place at one time. That is the limitation of being human.

    All of the angels are "capable" as you put it. They all also have free will just like humans. Satan isn't a 'worthy opponent" to God. He is just an angel who brought raised some questions to God. God could snap his fingers at any moment and make Satan disappear. But God wouldn't be very just and loving now would he if he did that? You see, Satan called into question Gods authority to rule over humans. Nothing more. Satan challenged god and claimed that humans only love him because he does good things for them. Satan claimed that if God left us to our own devices, that we would no longer love him. The book of Job talks about this in depth. It even says that Satan resides in heaven with God. Well, God accepted Satan's challenge, and said something along the lines of "Go ahead and try to lead them away from me if you can."

    You see, Satan was jealous of humans, because once God created us, he also made a home just especially for us. This is earth. He also took extra special care of us. He also made us out of the same "material", so to speak, as he is made of. This is why we are just below the angels. Because we are all basically mini versions of God, while the angels are not. So Satan wanted God to abandon us and give all of his love to the angels, and make a pretty little home for them to live in too. Instead, God appointed certain duties to all of the angels. Most of which involved some task that involves us humans. Some sects even decree that this is the task that God actually appointed to Satan!

    Either way, Satan is trying to lead as many people away from God as he can. Those who leave God are doomed to eternal death. Those who continue to have God in their life, despite life sucking sometimes, are rewarded with eternal life. So ultimately, this is why bad things happen on earth. We are indeed being tested to see if our faith prevails over unfortunate circumstances. God assures us that no matter how horrible it gets in life, the reward for keeping faith will be well worth it!

    Again, the book of Job goes well into detail on this issue. There are some who even believe that Satan will be forgiven at the end of time, because every thing he has done, he has actually done out of his own love for God, and his desire to be loved by God. And he has no tolerance for people who will only love God if he does nice things for them.


    Now, let me make clear, I am not a christian. I am a theist however. I just know the bible really fucking well, and while I think it is mostly allegory, I think there is some meaning to be found in some of it. I always have liked this approach to the existence of Good and evil on earth. But just because I like it, doesn't mean I believe it. It just makes the most sense out of all the other religious mumbo jumbo I have heard
     
  18. aaqucnaona This sentence is a lie Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,620
    I think my problem is this -
    I see the bible as a hollywood script.
    An extremely powerful alien beams his genetic code into a young female, the beam powers and orders the biochemical reactions for making an embryo in he womb. Once that child is born, he is the alien himself, controlled like the avatars [in cameron's] movie. This child is now sent on a suicide mission, where he spreads some wisdom, does some good, does a few questionable things and then [in essence] gets himself killed to draw the tale to an end [like an extreme example of sacrifice or mercy or wisdom].

    Even the most devout theist has to admit it sounds fictional and fantasy-themed. But you change a few names and methods, make it ambiguous and hard to understand.....
     
  19. kx000 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,134
    I believe in one God, no religion.
     
  20. skaught The field its covered in blood Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,103
    It does sound fictional. Just because a person is a theist, doesn't mean they believe in the bible.
     
  21. aaqucnaona This sentence is a lie Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,620
    I was merely pointing out that religious fundamentalism is not very credible. A person can be a theist [I call my self an atheist, but I am a spinozist] but its essential that he puts stone/bronze age stories in their proper place.
     
  22. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    43,184
    Technically, it's called Trinitarian monotheism.

    Trinitarian monotheism is the Christian doctrine of belief in one God who is three distinct persons; God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism#Definition_and_varieties
     
  23. Yazata Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,902
    You know Aaqucnaona, that's a subtler theological problem than it sounds. Throughout history, ostensible monotheists have almost always believed in a whole variety of supernatural beings, while insisting up and down that they are staunch monotheists in good standing.

    If we define 'god' as 'powerful supernatural being', and if by 'nature' we mean something like 'the physical universe and its contents', then angels, demons and so on would indeed qualify for inclusion as gods.

    But I don't think that any of the monotheistic religions would define their monotheistic 'god' quite that broadly, merely as 'powerful supernatural being'. They want to argue that their single monotheistic god is the supreme monarch of the entire universe, it's lawgiver and typically its creator as well.

    So in that kind of vision, the lesser supernatural beings can still exist, while still being subject to the highest god's lordship and law. While they might not be physical or natural in the scientific sense, and might inhabit some transcendent heaven or other, they would still be part of the created order.

    In other words, monotheistic religion's creation/creator distinction doesn't exactly correspond to the natural/supernatural distinction that modern science recognizes.

    The trinity is a lot tougher theologically for the Christians, since they want to insist that all three are separate divine "persons", while insisting adamantly that they are all one single god. So the kind of simple solution that I just outlined won't work for the trinity.

    There's a late antique formula that was later adopted as the orthodox position, that speaks of three 'persons' in one 'substance'.

    Many of the late antique trinitarian controversies revolved around the 'same substance' part ('homoousion'). Some wanted to argue that the three members of the trinity possessed similar divine substance (homoiousion'), but this was condemned as heretical since it threatened to enshrine a tritheist polytheism. (This ancient argument is where our phrase 'one iota of difference' ['iota' is the Greek letter 'i'] originally came from.) So the trinity idea is saying something stronger than simply that the three members of the trinity are all made from generic 'god stuff'. It's numerically one-and-the-same god-stuff.

    Another side of the early trinitarian controversies revolved the 'three persons' part. In ancient classical Greek, 'persona' originally meant a role that an actor played on stage. It was a false-face that he presented to the audience. At the time of the trinitarian controversies, that interpretation would naturally have occurred to most Greek-speaking people. When the idea of the trinity was first appearing, a famous theologian named Sabellius championed the idea that the three 'persons' were just different ways that the one god manifested himself to humanity. Three different ways that one thing can appear, so to speak. But as the Christological controvesies took hold, theologians believed it very important to argue that Christ's death and resurrection were something more than just a divine actor play-acting an illusiory earthly drama. So Sabellianism was eventually condemned as a heresy.

    That left theologians promoting a position that sounded like three distinct conscious personalities inhabiting one numerically single divine stuff. And that suggested something like multiple-personality disorder. People in late antiquity wondered, what happens if the three persons of the trinity disagree with each other? So the last stage of these controversies was the 'monothelite' controversy, the question of how many distinct wills the three persons supposedly had. People suggested that while they were three separate people, they only had one will, so were always in perfect harmony. Others attacked that as a return to somethng like Sabellianism, and the arguments continued.

    These kind of theological controversies are basically what was replacing older-style Greek philosophy in the 6'th century CE or so, it's what attracted the kind of people who would have become philosophers in earlier centuries, and it's the kind of intellectual life that the early medieval world inherited from antiquity. In the Greek-speaking east particularly, it kind of shaped the whole intellectual contour of Byzantine society and the excruciating subtleties of Greek Orthodox theology.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2012

Share This Page