12-27-11, 10:51 AM #1
Great Ape language - real?
So I hear that all great apes can apparently use language and that they understand and use sign language just as humans do [more like children, but they can do it].
So my question is this:
We know great apes, being one of them, have big brains. So maybe they are smart enough to know that if the make a few signs, they will get a reward. Even if they could associate the signs with objects and recombine them to form new words, but how do we know this association is not like pavlov's dog where the association is behavioural and not mental?
Do they truely use language like us, using it for thinking, self reflection, making conscious decisions, feeling, understanding and expressing emotions and so on? If yes, how does it affect our perspective of them as animals? Should we consider them evolutionarily disadvantaged cousins [in a sympathetic way]? If they truely can use language like us, the lines between us and the rest of apes gets very much smudged indeed, doesn't it?
12-27-11, 11:12 AM #2
The lines between us and our cousins are usually fairly blurry. The differences are more a matter of degree than of kind.
12-27-11, 03:33 PM #3
. . . .and that they understand and use sign language just as humans do [more like children, but they can do it].
I have often asked whether any deaf humans have participated in this program and so far I've not found an answer. One would think that a human who has always communicated exclusively in ASL would be far better qualified to decide if a non-human is "using it just as humans do."We know great apes, being one of them, have big brains.
Of course this does not rule out the invention of sign language, which requires only the use of hands that were already well-developed. (When Jean Auel began her "Earth's Children" series with Clan of the Cave Bear, it was not yet known that Neanderthals might have had speech, so hers communicate in an elaborate sign language.) Besides, parrot brains have no speech center, but Alex the African Grey was able to compose accurate, meaningful phrases such as "large red key."So maybe they are smart enough to know that if the make a few signs, they will get a reward.Even if they could associate the signs with objects and recombine them to form new words, but how do we know this association is not like pavlov's dog where the association is behavioural and not mental?Do they truly use language like us, using it for thinking, self reflection, making conscious decisions, feeling, understanding and expressing emotions and so on?If yes, how does it affect our perspective of them as animals? Should we consider them evolutionarily disadvantaged cousins [in a sympathetic way]?
Cetaceans obviously communicate with sound. Although we haven't been able to "crack the code" of any species's sounds yet (perhaps because their universe is so different from ours that we don't have very many concepts in common--how many of our idioms contain the word "hand" or "foot"? ), we've discovered that in some species each individual has a name, and that each pod has its own little chant that could be anything from a war cry, to a national anthem, to a ribald marching cadence on the order of "I don't know/But I've been told/Eskimo pie/Is mighty cold/Sound off/One-two/Sound off/Three-Four." The more intelligent-seeming species of whales and dolphins may turn out to be the most intelligent non-human animals.
I don't know about you, but just in case that's true (and even if they're only as intelligent as a gorilla or even my dog) I would really like to see people stop eating them!If they truly can use language like us, the line between us and the rest of apes gets very much smudged indeed, doesn't it?
Last edited by Fraggle Rocker; 12-27-11 at 03:40 PM.
12-27-11, 04:16 PM #4
Thank you, Fraggle Rocker. Wonderful answer.
12-28-11, 01:40 AM #5
This probably sounds stupid, but I dont get your comparision of them with turing machines [I only know that they erase and write stuff on tapes].
Second, compared to humans, where do they stand? Are they like a 3 yr old only?
12-28-11, 06:50 AM #6
A Turing Machine is a computer that perfectly simulates human conversation and is hidden behind a curtain (or these days it could be via telephone) so no one knows that it's not a human. The point is philosophical: If you ask it any question you can think of, and the answer is indistinguishable from the answer you would get from a human... then does it matter that it's not human? Have we created a perfect artificial human?
My point was that if gorillas or chimpanzees ever completely master ASL, so carrying on a conversation with one feels exactly like carrying on a conversation with a human, does it matter whether they "think" and "use language" exactly the same way we do? (Of course this requires the non-human apes to understand things that are way beyond the capacity of their relatively small brains so using a Turing Machine as an analogy isn't the best way to ask the question.)Second, compared to humans, where do they stand? Are they like a 3 yr old only?
But in general it's difficult to compare the "maturity" of a non-human animal to a human. Of course primates are more similar to us than other mammals, and we assume that they think more like us than they do. But still, many animals don't have our elaborate time sense. Their concept of past-present-future is much more rudimentary than ours, which is key to our entire perception of the world.
01-10-12, 09:41 AM #7
I don't think the comparison of an adult ape to a human child (of any age) is valid.
The content of their thoughts, their concerns and attitudes and emotional responses, will be quite different. Even in an ape that's been removed from hir own society in infancy, and therefore missed the normal training and socializing s/he would require as a functioning ape, this is, at best, an artificially imposed childhood, not a biological one; in no way similar to the development of a human child growing up in human society.
Another significant difference is that, in all of these experiments, it's the ape that must learn - and has learned - human conceptualization and expression, while the (much more intelligent and complex) human has not learned ape language. So, each of these experimental subjects, with a vocabulary of hundreds or a thousand, or whatever number of words, that's in their second or third language: often, they've already learned to understand spoken English (even if their physiology is unequipped to articulate the sounds) before learning ASL - that's either on top of their mother tongue, or instead of.
To understand the language of real apes in the context of real ape life, ask Jane Goodall.
I find it risible that humans are forever measuring and judging the intelligence of other species by how well those species can function in human engineered situations. Nobody asks how well a human would function, how clever a human would appear, if tested in a rat situation or a parrot challenge, or a baboon community. It seems to me, the dogs and chimps have already demonstrated a greater degree of adaptability and tolerance by the very act of attempting to understand our language.
Last edited by Jeeves; 01-10-12 at 09:46 AM.
01-10-12, 12:56 PM #8
"Turing machine" most properly refers to a specific computer architecture (the thing with the moving tape) and those devices which are mathematically equivalent in their working to that architecture. In more general sense it can just mean "general purpose computer".
The scenario you're describing is a "Turing test" (the thing with messages from behind a curtain) , which is a method Alan Turing proposed of testing whether an artificial intelligence is functionally equivalent to a human mind, and may or may not have a Turing complete device as the foundation) .
Judging by how often I see new ones, there are a surprising number of terms in the form of "Turing Something" in the fields of computer science and mathematics.
01-10-12, 12:59 PM #9
I think apes can learn languages, but I don't think they can learn to think with more sophistication than their inherited potential, and so they can't use as complex languages as humans.
From my reading of the subject, it seems like they could eventually get a vocabulary as large as ours, but have trouble saying words in the right order in all but simple sentences.
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