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Thread: Capitalism: Business Plan? Responsibility? Say What?

  1. #1
    Let us not launch the boat ... Tiassa's Avatar
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    Cool Capitalism: Business Plan? Responsibility? Say What?

    Capitalism

    If you screw up your business plan, isn't that your problem?

    Hundreds of passengers traveling from India to Britain were stranded for six hours in Vienna when their Comtel Air flight stopped for fuel on Tuesday. The charter service asked them to kick in more than 20,000 pounds ($31,000) to fund the rest of the flight to Birmingham, England.

    The situation may represent a new low in customer care in an era when flyers are seeing long lines, long waits and few perks.

    Britain's Channel 4 news broadcast video showing a Comtel cabin crew member telling passengers: "We need some money to pay the fuel, to pay the airport, to pay everything we need. If you want to go to Birmingham, you have to pay."

    Some passengers said they were sent off the plane to cash machines in Vienna to raise the money.


    (Kirka)

    Apparently not.

    Meanwhile, the airline's majority shareholder insists that the company is still solvent.

    This travesty has been brought to you by—what else?—capitalism.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Kirka, Danica. "Comtel Air to passengers: Pay extra or we don't fly". The Christian Science Monitor. November 18, 2011. CSMonitor.com. November 18, 2011. http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/La...r-we-don-t-fly

  2. #2
    Please use Sugar Cane Alcohol Billy T's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiassa View Post
    ... The situation may represent a new low in customer care ...
    No, not even close. 35 or so years ago there was a global boycott of Nestle as they were giving a full case of baby formula to mothers leaving hospital (in richer parts of africa where the mother might be able to keep buying their formula) plus a phamplet telling formula was the better and modern way to give your baby a good start in life. - They new back then that was exactly wrong but the truth was not as good for Nestle´s profits. From at least a decade I never bought a Nestle product and there must have been many like me as our well publicised boycott did end the policy.* (They gave a whole case as that would end natural lactation.)

    Well they and others are at it again, but only giving a few cans in the mothers exit bags handed out by the hospitals:

    "... In the latest episode, some 100 consumer groups have written more than 2,600 US hospitals to say samples should not be included in discharge bags given to new mothers because the practice is “unethical and violates good public health policy.” An online petition was also created to generate public support to demand an end to the distribution.

    Abbott is not the only maker of infant formula that is being criticized for distributing samples. Nestle, which sells Gerber, and Mead Johnson, which sells Enfamil, are also named in the letter and petition being circulated by Public Citizen along with the American Academy of Nursing, the American Public Health Association, Consumers Union, the National Alliance for Breastfeeding Advocacy and the Center for Science in the Public Interest, among others. ...

    About 66 percent of hospitals still give away formula, according to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which notes that babies who are fed formula and stop breastfeeding early have higher risks of obesity, diabetes, respiratory and ear infections, and sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS), and tend to require more doctor visits, hospitalizations, and prescriptions. The CDC adds that low rates of breastfeeding add $2.2 billion a year to medical costs and that moms who breastfeed have lower risks of breast and ovarian cancers (read pdf file at link in the original which is here). Nonetheless, only 14 percent of 6-month-old infants are exclusively breastfed. ..."

    quote from: http://www.pharmalot.com/2012/04/40082/o

    BT adds that chance of becoming pregant while nursing is greatly reduced - nature is very smart - Baby milk is properly placed in much more attactive packages than metal cans.

    Here is the on-line petition you can sign: http://action.citizen.org/p/dia/acti...tion_KEY=10062

    SUMMARY: if it helps profits, capitalistic corporations will knowingly do great harm. The government must step in and make very bad practices more costly than profitable.

    * It also taught me an important lesson which I applied to open the restaurant of Baltimore to all - Corporations don´t respond to moral arguments - they have only one creed - make biggest possible profit (and keep as much as possible for the CEO and other high ups) I.e. I knew that our group needed to be ruthlessly damaging to their profits and we were: - On good weather week end we could cost them at least $25,000 so after two prior summers of moral persuasion efforts failure, the Restaurant Association turned 180 degrees and joined us (The Civic Interest Group) in asking the MD legislature to outlaw discrimination based on race, which they almost immediately did.

    Do cigarette companies still give out those special small packs (only 8 cigarettes as I recall) in middle schools in the US?
    Last edited by Billy T; 04-10-12 at 06:36 PM.

  3. #3
    Mourning in America madanthonywayne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiassa View Post
    Capitalism

    If you screw up your business plan, isn't that your problem?

    Hundreds of passengers traveling from India to Britain were stranded for six hours in Vienna when their Comtel Air flight stopped for fuel on Tuesday. The charter service asked them to kick in more than 20,000 pounds ($31,000) to fund the rest of the flight to Birmingham, England.

    The situation may represent a new low in customer care in an era when flyers are seeing long lines, long waits and few perks.

    Britain's Channel 4 news broadcast video showing a Comtel cabin crew member telling passengers: "We need some money to pay the fuel, to pay the airport, to pay everything we need. If you want to go to Birmingham, you have to pay."

    Some passengers said they were sent off the plane to cash machines in Vienna to raise the money.


    (Kirka)

    Apparently not.

    Meanwhile, the airline's majority shareholder insists that the company is still solvent.

    This travesty has been brought to you by—what else?—capitalism.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Kirka, Danica. "Comtel Air to passengers: Pay extra or we don't fly". The Christian Science Monitor. November 18, 2011. CSMonitor.com. November 18, 2011. http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/La...r-we-don-t-fly
    Capitalism doesn't prevent horrible service such as that described in the absurd story you related above, but it does punish such behavior pretty harshly. If the company is, as the majority shareholder insists, still solvent; I doubt it will be for long.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiassa View Post
    Capitalism

    If you screw up your business plan, isn't that your problem?
    Ultimately of course, and I expect if the airline is solvent as they said, the passengers were refunded what they had to pitch in, but half way through a trip, I guess you do what you have to to complete it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiassa
    Meanwhile, the airline's majority shareholder insists that the company is still solvent.

    This travesty has been brought to you by—what else?—capitalism.
    Nope.
    One airline screwing up is not an indictement of Capitalism Tiassa.

    Indeed, adjusted for inflation, domestic fares are down nearly 16% since just 1995 (That would be the Red Line).



    http://www.bts.gov/programs/economic...ml/annual.html

  5. #5
    Valued Senior Member Carcano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiassa View Post
    This travesty has been brought to you by—what else?—capitalism.
    Blaming an isolated anomaly on CAPITALISM is about the silliest thing I've read on this forum...and thats saying a lot.
    Last edited by Carcano; 04-10-12 at 09:17 PM.

  6. #6
    Please use Sugar Cane Alcohol Billy T's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carcano View Post
    Blaming an isolated anomaly on CAPITALISM is about the silliest thing I've read on this forum...and thats saying a lot.
    If you had read post 2, You would know that putting profits first and ignoring public welfare is standard corporate policy.

    In post 2 is an example of 35 years (and still occurring today) of half dozen companies giving ignorant new mothers their canned baby formula with pamphlets telling breast feeding is the old fashioned way and not as good for baby as scientifically prepared formula - exactly the opposite of the truth, but much more profitable if they can get mother´s breast to go dry with the free samples so she no longer can breast feed.

    When I was a kid in a West Virginia middle school, representatives of cigarette companies gave out "sample packs" (Only 8 cigarettes in each) for free about every month. Corporations need regulation to limit their natural tendencies.

    Anne Rand´s unregulated Capitalism is very destructive of public health, the environment and the economy. For several years, Greenspan spent many hours in her living room discussion groups lapping up her nonsense about perfect, unregulated capitalism and genuinely believed, when head of the FED, that the banks would self regulate, would not make loans with low probability of being repaid, etc.

    Well the banks did as all unregulated corporations do. Tried to get the max profit (and keep as much of it as possible for the top management). In this bank case that meant lending to any one sober enough to sign the mortgage papers as each could be packaged with others and re-sold for more profits with AAA ratings as the package had geographic diversity.

    Tax payers are now picking up the tab for this "toxic trash" (much of it at bankrupt Freedy & Fanny now) but not one dime of the millions in bank profits has ever been returned. The banks had zero risk after the package was quickly sold to investors impressed with the false triple A ratings. The more mortgages they granted the more their no-risk profits grew. So of course, they had a NI,NMD,YQ loan policy (No Income, No Money Down, You Qualify!)

    Anne Rand´s tutoring of Greenspan into supporting unregulated capitalism is main reason US (and world) is in the current economic stress or perhaps he is only second to GWB´s many stupid policies wrt both economics (restrained SEC, tax breaks for the super rich destroying jobs as they build modern foreign factories*, etc. and shrinking the US middle class) AND GWB´s foreign policy, (mainly needless wars trying to get more profits for oil company buddies).

    The "fruit" of this poorly regulated capitalism is the current global collapse of the middle class and the coming depression - worst ever with collapse of the dollar.

    * W. Buffett is in the news now with the "Buffett rule" but with the tax break he got from GWB, he helped Chinese BYD motors expand and now owns 11% of BYD - directly, with many other supper rich benefitted by GWB, helping to kill US jobs (or at least force many to be exported to Mexico or other places where the components could be made more cheaply.)

    Yes "trickle down" tax relief makes jobs - but not in the US. In the US trickle down kills jobs. Trickle down removes the advantage US once had with the world´s most modern factories - they are in Asian now.
    Last edited by Billy T; 04-11-12 at 07:18 AM.

  7. #7
    Valued Senior Member Carcano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy T View Post
    If you had read post 2, You would know that putting profits first and ignoring public welfare is standard corporate policy.
    Nothing is 'standard' Billy. There are thousands of examples of horrible abuses by governments as well as corporations.

    And thousands of examples of altruism.

    Good or evil isnt endemic to either.

  8. #8
    Valued Senior Member Carcano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy T View Post
    Anne Rand´s unregulated Capitalism is very destructive of public health, the environment and the economy. For several years, Greenspan spent many hours in her living room discussion groups lapping up her nonsense about perfect, unregulated capitalism and genuinely believed, when head of the FED, that the banks would self regulate, would not make loans with low probability of being repaid, etc.
    If Greenspan wanted to practise 'unregulated capitalism' he would never have accepted the position of Federal Reserve Chairman.

    Where his job was to FIX interest rates and regulate reserve ratios.

  9. #9
    Please use Sugar Cane Alcohol Billy T's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carcano View Post
    If Greenspan wanted to practise 'unregulated capitalism' he would never have accepted the position of Federal Reserve Chairman. Where his job was to FIX interest rates and regulate reserve ratios.
    adjusting the money supply by buying or selling bonds to modify the interest rates or even the steepness of the yield curve (Currently artificially flatter by FED selling short term and buying longer term paper - operation "twist") is not regulation. All governments need to make currency available for commerce and try to moderate booms with interest rate increases.

    Regulation is not general economic policy but industry specific - For example: cars of the fleet must average 30 mpg or power companies can only release X grams of SO2 and Y grams of CO2, etc. per KWH generated - that is regulation. Regulation is government rules imposed on industries (not always wisely) under the government´s perceived POV of the "public good" and in recognition that industry driven by profit motive alone would do great damage to society.

    Greenspan was happy to remove bank regulations with his Anne Rand belief that banks would self regulate (not make foolish loans) better than the government could regulate them.

    I´ll admit that setting bank reserve requirement is "regulation" but every country does this in part as a measure of making their banks more safe. I.e. it is not optional, only the % requirement is and it is one of several tools used to adjust the general level of economic activity - not really specific to banks in that sense. It is a requently used tool for this in China. (Last year, if menory serves me correctly China changed the requirement 5 times in 8 months!)
    Last edited by Billy T; 04-11-12 at 07:51 AM.

  10. #10
    Valued Senior Member Carcano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy T View Post
    I´ll admit that setting bank reserve requirement is "regulation" but every country does this in part as a measure of making their banks more safe. I.e. it is not optional, only the % requirement is and it is one of several tools used to adjust the general level of economic activity - not really specific to banks in that sense.
    Yes and adjusting the level of economic activity by fixing interest rates and reserve ratios is REGULATION...whether you like the word or not.

    Rand would not approve.

    Nor would she approve of government schemes like Ginnie Mae interfering in the housing market to create a moral hazard ripe for wall street plundering.

    Paradoxically, it is often government tinkering creating the environment for capitalist abuses.

  11. #11
    Please use Sugar Cane Alcohol Billy T's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carcano View Post
    Yes and adjusting the level of economic activity by fixing interest rates and reserve ratios is REGULATION...whether you like the word or not. ...
    I don´t like to call any and everything the government does "regulations" but you can if you want to remove any meaning from the word.

    For me, as stated earlier, only specific rules imposed on specific industries is "regulation." I don´t call adjusting interest rates or size of the money supply, etc. (both often by government activity in the bond market) "regulation" but with a definitions broad enough (i.e. any goverment activity is regulation) to no longer have use, you can.
    Last edited by Billy T; 04-13-12 at 09:49 AM.

  12. #12
    If the company sold a ticket to Britain and did not fulfill that agreement they can easily be sued. This is one of those instances where the government is supposed to step in, look the legal agreement, and ensure the law is upheld. What does that have to do with Capitolism? Sounds more like a case of fraud.


    The Federal Reserve notes are as far from free-market capitalism as one could imagine - some douche bag prick sitting in New York decides what interest rates are - - essentially total control over our money supply and pretty much our nation.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    If the company sold a ticket to Britain and did not fulfill that agreement they can easily be sued. This is one of those instances where the government is supposed to step in, look the legal agreement, and ensure the law is upheld. What does that have to do with Capitolism? Sounds more like a case of fraud.

    The Federal Reserve notes are as far from free-market capitalism as one could imagine - some douche bag prick sitting in New York decides what interest rates are - - essentially total control over our money supply and pretty much our nation.
    No that is nonsense.


    Mission


    The Federal Reserve System is the central bank of the United States. It was founded by Congress in 1913 to provide the nation with a safer, more flexible, and more stable monetary and financial system. Over the years, its role in banking and the economy has expanded.
    Today, the Federal Reserve's duties fall into four general areas:

    •conducting the nation's monetary policy by influencing the monetary and credit conditions in the economy in pursuit of maximum employment, stable prices, and moderate long-term interest rates
    •supervising and regulating banking institutions to ensure the safety and soundness of the nation's banking and financial system and to protect the credit rights of consumers
    •maintaining the stability of the financial system and containing systemic risk that may arise in financial markets
    •providing financial services to depository institutions, the U.S. government, and foreign official institutions, including playing a major role in operating the nation's payments system

    http://www.federalreserve.gov/aboutthefed/mission.htm
    Last edited by joepistole; 04-13-12 at 10:19 AM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by joepistole View Post
    No that is nonsense.


    Mission


    The Federal Reserve System is the central bank of the United States. It was founded by Congress in 1913 to provide the nation with a safer, more flexible, and more stable monetary and financial system. Over the years, its role in banking and the economy has expanded.
    Today, the Federal Reserve's duties fall into four general areas:

    •conducting the nation's monetary policy by influencing the monetary and credit conditions in the economy in pursuit of maximum employment, stable prices, and moderate long-term interest rates
    •supervising and regulating banking institutions to ensure the safety and soundness of the nation's banking and financial system and to protect the credit rights of consumers
    •maintaining the stability of the financial system and containing systemic risk that may arise in financial markets
    •providing financial services to depository institutions, the U.S. government, and foreign official institutions, including playing a major role in operating the nation's payments system

    http://www.federalreserve.gov/aboutthefed/mission.htm
    I'm sure if their mission statement was thought to come from the Gods and was to blow candy kisses from their anuses you'd be well placed to receive their blessings Admit it, you were gushing how 6% was more than fair to be held in their strong safe arms? Hell, lets give them 20%!! I do recall so. In reality we should be saying WTF! Greenspan is the one who precipitated the GFC for Christ's sake! The Fed magic formula = blow bubble after bubble. They've run the debt up nearly 20 trillion in bubbles a monkey could blow. At the end of the day the Federal Reserve is a monopoly on our interest rates.

    They're supposed to maintain stability?!?! Well they don't.



    A nice stable depreciation in purchasing power and instead of one father of 4 working 40 hours a week we have both parents maybe with one child they had in their 40s BOTH working 50-80 hours a week to provide an equivalent existence - - all the while the top well connected to the Central Government or the Federal Reserve (example: Corzine) 0.1% get richer feeding off the rest of the productive society. Well Joe, you can thank your Fed and your love of BIG Federal Government for that.

    Here's that dipshit: Russell E. Palmer Professor of Finance at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania Dr. Jeremy J. Siegel. Get this, his book Stocks for the Long Run, which published its fourth edition in 2008 months prior to the GFC, was named by the Washington Post as one of the ten-best investment books of all time.

    I bet you feel like spooning with him right now don't you? He probably has a 'I Finance for Krugman' tramp stamp on his wrinkly old back:^p

    Debate here.


    You know, it makes me SICK to my stomach to know American Citizens, who were once free, would not only ignorantly give over their sovereignty to some dipshits at the Federal Reserve but do so WILLINGLY - even defending them!?!? It reminds me of how Iranians rally around the Ayatollah or North Koreans rally around Dear Leader. All while their societies go into the toilet. Is it THAT F%CKING SCARY living life without being some alpha male's bitch? Huh Joe? Is it? You have to take the rest of us down with you? Oh, but you made out real good on the System didn't you? Good enough to like the taste of boot. Well Joe, I once made over 100% return on an investment of my entire life's savings. ALL thanks to this corrupt system. BUT UNLIKE YOU I want it to die. And I'm smart enough to know it was a fluke. It could have went the other way.


    The Federal Reserve will Die Joe, sorry but all corrupt evil things die under light, even if it is a slow death. The American public (some anyway) have listened to the minutes from the Fed as the GFC was unfolding and it shows they were F%CKING CLUELESS. They were totally out of touch and doing anything and everything to keep the party they enjoy going. Which meant selling the US tax payer and entire way of life down the river. There's no coming back from that Joe. It's dying right in front of your eyes.

    Don't worry Joe, when the Aliens come, they'll take Fed-fanboys to the Mother Ship first
    Last edited by Michael; 04-14-12 at 01:55 AM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    I'm sure if their mission statement was thought to come from the Gods and was to blow candy kisses from their anuses you'd be well placed to receive their blessings Admit it, you were gushing how 6% was more than fair to be held in their strong safe arms? Hell, lets give them 20%!! I do recall so. In reality we should be saying WTF! Greenspan is the one who precipitated the GFC for Christ's sake! The Fed magic formula = blow bubble after bubble. They've run the debt up nearly 20 trillion in bubbles a monkey could blow. At the end of the day the Federal Reserve is a monopoly on our interest rates.
    You are reacting as if I sprinkled a vampire with Holy water Michael. The Fed's mission is what it is, it is just that simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    They're supposed to maintain stability?!?! Well they don't.

    They don't? Do you know what the picture would have looked like without the Fed? No you don't. For starters, it ignores at least 2/3rds of the picture (e.g. effects of supply shocks and fiscal policy). Additionally, you are ignoring the fact that people had more dollars to spend. So your chart is really meaningless. The important metric here is purchasing power per hour of work - which is not represented in your chart.

    When you look at the relevant metric, percent of income spent for various commodities and services or CPI, prices have been very stable over time. It helps to use the right metric Michael.

    http://www.ers.usda.gov/AmberWaves/S...ntofIncome.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    A nice stable depreciation in purchasing power and instead of one father of 4 working 40 hours a week we have both parents maybe with one child they had in their 40s BOTH working 50-80 hours a week to provide an equivalent existence - - all the while the top well connected to the Central Government or the Federal Reserve (example: Corzine) 0.1% get richer feeding off the rest of the productive society. Well Joe, you can thank your Fed and your love of BIG Federal Government for that.
    I could blame the Fed for that, but they had nothing to do with the social and economic changes you just named. So I won't blame them. Those changes had more to do with globalization and international competitiveness than the Federal Reserve.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    Here's that dipshit: Russell E. Palmer Professor of Finance at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania Dr. Jeremy J. Siegel. Get this, his book Stocks for the Long Run, which published its fourth edition in 2008 months prior to the GFC, was named by the Washington Post as one of the ten-best investment books of all time.
    I guess you missed the part about "long run".

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    I bet you feel like spooning with him right now don't you? He probably has a 'I Finance for Krugman' tramp stamp on his wrinkly old back:^p

    Debate here.
    Is this supposed to relevant to something?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    You know, it makes me SICK to my stomach to know American Citizens, who were once free, would not only ignorantly give over their sovereignty to some dipshits at the Federal Reserve but do so WILLINGLY - even defending them? It reminds me of how Iranians rally around the Ayatollah or North Koreans rally around Dear Leader. All while their societies go into the toilet. Is it THAT F%CKING SCARY living life without being some alpha male's bitch? Huh Joe? Is it? You have to take the rest of us down with you? Oh, but you made out real good on the System didn't you? Good enough to like the taste of boot. Well Joe, I once made over 100% return on an investment of my entire life's savings. ALL thanks to this corrupt system. BUT UNLIKE YOU I want it to die. And I'm smart enough to know it was a fluke. It could have went the other way.
    First, American citizens have not given up their sovereign rights. So the rest of your commentary is meaningless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    The Federal Reserve will Die Joe, sorry but all corrupt evil things die under light, even if it is a slow death. The American public (some anyway) have listened to the minutes from the Fed as the GFC was unfolding and it shows they were F%CKING CLUELESS. They were totally out of touch and doing anything and everything to keep the party they enjoy going. Which meant selling the US tax payer and entire way of life down the river. There's no coming back from that Joe. It's dying right in front of your eyes.

    Don't worry Joe, when the Aliens come, they'll take Fed-fanboys to the Mother Ship first
    Well the most corrupt body is the body you have not mentioned. It is our political system and the way we elect our representatives. Until that is fixed, you are going to continue to see Americans get screwed in the light of day and in the dark of night.

    Two, there is NO evidence of corruption in the Federal Reserve. And history, even at this stage, has clearly demonstrated that the Federal Reserve in conjunction with actions by the Treasury, Congress and the President saved our collective rear ends from another Great Depression.
    Last edited by joepistole; 04-14-12 at 01:35 PM.

  16. #16
    Ever hear of the phrase: Out of the frying pan and into the fire?


    No one can know what life would be like had we NOT accepted a Central Bank. For one, we might NOT have had the Great Depression and it might NOT have been prolonged. Perhaps if we had lots of currencies spread out across the US private and public, things would BE a lot different in the USA. No one knows because we can't redo history. Can you understand that concept Joe? I know it's not that hard, but sometimes when you're utterly enamored with something, like a superstar or the idea of spooning a Fed Chairman, well, rational thought tends to go out the window.

    One more time: NO ONE CAN KNOW WHAT MODERN AMERICA 2000 (OR THE WORLD) WOULD HAVE BEEN LIKE WITHOUT A FEDERAL RESERVE MONETARY SYSTEM.

    Agreed?

    We can not know. You can guess, but there's no way to know what life would have been like with competing currencies. We probably would be living in a very different world with a population much more interested in and knowledgeable about currency, money, their labor.... many things that would have strengthened this nation. I know you think living under a Tyrant is good because He looks after thing, and if he's a "good" tyrant life is pretty good, but over the long run, society will turn to shit. It is inevitable.

    Oh, and by the way, it was Greenspan who ultimately caused the so-called Great Recession by keeping interest rates low to blow up a housing bubble to cover the dot com crash and removing regulations under Clinton was part of the deal. The Fed caused this mess, just as they've caused all the others. You can't just suck their ass when things are good gushing praise and then totally look the other way when the economy turns to shit. I mean, could you be any more inconsistent? I mean, when the economy is good you gush all over the Fed and when the economy is bad, then it's something wrong with the government and politics - as if f*cking politicians have changed since Mark Twain and before. The only thing that's changed is how much BIGGER and more intrusive government now is.


    Anyway, this is somewhat all academic. We live in your system. The government will continue to grow, it will continue to erode our basic rights, the USD will continue to decline in value and life in the US will continue to bificate between the haves and havenots with the inner cities rotting worse than they already are. We will continue to have more war. Taxes will rise. You're children will have less opportunity than your generation. Ben's printing press has already destroyed a generation of Americans future. But it saved your cherished banks, how utterly magnanimous and totally unbiased your support - not like you don't stand to loose or gain. Hey, what's a generation of Americans future? Things are just as you'd like them to be. The Democrats will win the POTUS and our debt will hit $20 Trillion. Wasteful stuff like NASA and University will be cut. But the babyboomers get "free" medical coverage in their old age as they wipe out what's left of the nation. You should be happy.


    Lets see if they can push the house prices back up. That's their goal, lets see if it works. Gee, they're so so clever over at the Fed.


    I have a couple questions.
    (1) Are Gambling Casinos productive? Do they create prosperity for society?
    (2) Why are you in love with the Federal Reserve? Do you think it's just the most perfectly-est purdy thing alive or are you able to see the warts? Just how enamored are you with the Fed? Has the Fed ever made a major mistake - ever? Or is it your God, forever perfect in action including perfect knowledge of the future ie: clairvoyance. I'm just curious why people get stuck in mental ruts they can't get out of. It's rather interesting. I see the Federal Reserve as a tool, in imperfect and immoral tool. One that should be discarded and out monetary system upgraded to something else immediately. But, nothing more or less than that. You OTOH seem to gush and flush and fludder about when you hear the words Fed Chairman. Why is that? Is Ben THAT well hung?
    Last edited by Michael; 04-15-12 at 07:13 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    Ever hear of the phrase: Out of the frying pan and into the fire?

    No one can know what life would be like had we NOT accepted a Central Bank. For one, we might NOT have had the Great Depression and it might NOT have been prolonged. Perhaps if we had lots of currencies spread out across the US private and public, things would BE a lot different in the USA. No one knows because we can't redo history. Can you understand that concept Joe? I know it's not that hard, but sometimes when you're utterly enamored with something, like a superstar or the idea of spooning a Fed Chairman, well, rational thought tends to go out the window.

    One more time: NO ONE CAN KNOW WHAT MODERN AMERICA 2000 (OR THE WORLD) WOULD HAVE BEEN LIKE WITHOUT A FEDERAL RESERVE MONETARY SYSTEM.

    Agreed?

    We can not know. You can guess, but there's no way to know what life would have been like with competing currencies. We probably would be living in a very different world with a population much more interested in and knowledgeable about currency, money, their labor.... many things that would have strengthened this nation. I know you think living under a Tyrant is good because He looks after thing, and if he's a "good" tyrant life is pretty good, but over the long run, society will turn to shit. It is inevitable.

    Oh, and by the way, it was Greenspan who ultimately caused the so-called Great Recession by keeping interest rates low to blow up a housing bubble to cover the dot com crash and removing regulations under Clinton was part of the deal. The Fed caused this mess, just as they've caused all the others. You can't just suck their ass when things are good gushing praise and then totally look the other way when the economy turns to shit. I mean, could you be any more inconsistent? I mean, when the economy is good you gush all over the Fed and when the economy is bad, then it's something wrong with the government and politics - as if f*cking politicians have changed since Mark Twain and before. The only thing that's changed is how much BIGGER and more intrusive government now is.


    Anyway, this is somewhat all academic. We live in your system. The government will continue to grow, it will continue to erode our basic rights, the USD will continue to decline in value and life in the US will continue to bificate between the haves and havenots with the inner cities rotting worse than they already are. We will continue to have more war. Taxes will rise. You're children will have less opportunity than your generation. Ben's printing press has already destroyed a generation of Americans future. But it saved your cherished banks, how utterly magnanimous and totally unbiased your support - not like you don't stand to loose or gain. Hey, what's a generation of Americans future? Things are just as you'd like them to be. The Democrats will win the POTUS and our debt will hit $20 Trillion. Wasteful stuff like NASA and University will be cut. But the babyboomers get "free" medical coverage in their old age as they wipe out what's left of the nation. You should be happy.


    Lets see if they can push the house prices back up. That's their goal, lets see if it works. Gee, they're so so clever over at the Fed.
    You seemed to have missed the point, the valuation of the dollar is not the issue. The dollar declined in value, but people have more dollars. So where is the harm? The facts are the Fed has brought us price stability when viewed through the correct metrics (i.e. consumer purchasing power).

    The point is, all the crap you are laying on the Fed is just that, crap - not founded in evidence or reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    I have a couple questions.
    (1) Are Gambling Casinos productive? Do they create prosperity for society?
    (2) Why are you in love with the Federal Reserve? Do you think it's just the most perfectly-est purdy thing alive or are you able to see the warts? Just how enamored are you with the Fed? Has the Fed ever made a major mistake - ever? Or is it your God, forever perfect in action including perfect knowledge of the future ie: clairvoyance. I'm just curious why people get stuck in mental ruts they can't get out of. It's rather interesting. I see the Federal Reserve as a tool, in imperfect and immoral tool. One that should be discarded and out monetary system upgraded to something else immediately. But, nothing more or less than that. You OTOH seem to gush and flush and fludder about when you hear the words Fed Chairman. Why is that? Is Ben THAT well hung?
    Of course gambling casinos are productive. They hire people, consume goods and services and they satisfy a need for a select consumer base. Casinos are no different in those respects from any other segment of the entertainment industry.

    Two, I am not in love with the Fed. That is just another attempt by you to discount the truth about the Fed and minimize the inacuracies in your claims about the Fed. I am however a fan of honesty and rational thought. Sure the Fed has made mistakes. But that doesn't mean we should get rid of it nor does it mean we should make up lies about the Fed. And unfortunately for you the Fed under Chairman Bernanke has been the one bright light in the nation's financial story in recent years. That is why the European central bank is now mimicking our Fed's policies.
    Last edited by joepistole; 04-15-12 at 10:05 AM.

  18. #18
    Registered Senior Member
    Posts
    178
    Quote Originally Posted by joepistole View Post
    You seemed to have missed the point, the valuation of the dollar is not the issue. The dollar declined in value, but people have more dollars. So where is the harm? The facts are the Fed has brought us price stability when viewed through the correct metrics (i.e. consumer purchasing power).
    Can you provide some evidence of that ?
    Quick research tells me that 35 years ago you could buy twice as much serial boxes with 1 hour of work (minimum wage) than today




    And unfortunately for you the Fed under Chairman Bernanke has been the one bright light in the nation's financial story in recent years. That is why the European central bank is now mimicking our Fed's policies.
    That is just hilarious...

    Europe merry-go-round: Spain debt crisis & Portugal bailout-On the Edge with Max Keiser-04-13-2012
    In this edition of the show Max interviews Mike "Mish" Shedlock from Sitka Pacific Capital. He talks about the European Commissioner for Economic and Monetary Affair's warning about the need for another bailout for Portugal and also the soaring yields on Spanish debt. Mike "Mish" Shedlock is an investment advisor at Sitka Pacific Capital. He writes the widely read Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUd9NBl623w

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by eyeswideshut View Post
    Can you provide some evidence of that ?
    Quick research tells me that 35 years ago you could buy twice as much serial boxes with 1 hour of work (minimum wage) than today
    I alreadydid. I suggest you go back and read.

    Quote Originally Posted by eyeswideshut View Post
    That is just hilarious...

    Europe merry-go-round: Spain debt crisis & Portugal bailout-On the Edge with Max Keiser-04-13-2012
    In this edition of the show Max interviews Mike "Mish" Shedlock from Sitka Pacific Capital. He talks about the European Commissioner for Economic and Monetary Affair's warning about the need for another bailout for Portugal and also the soaring yields on Spanish debt. Mike "Mish" Shedlock is an investment advisor at Sitka Pacific Capital. He writes the widely read Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUd9NBl623w
    A waste of time, was there a point there somewhere?

  20. #20
    Registered Senior Member
    Posts
    178
    Quote Originally Posted by joepistole View Post
    I alreadydid. I suggest you go back and read.
    You offer that sloppy article as evidence ? OK....



    A waste of time, was there a point there somewhere?
    Like, two wrongs doesnt make it right...

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