Is Islam actually Judaism ?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by arauca, Nov 6, 2011.

  1. arauca Banned Banned

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    After the Circumcised Jews were expelled from Palestine they moved to neighboring land and one of them was Arabia were Mohamed grew up ( Correct me If I am wrong : Mohamed grew up in Medina a city of Jewish population ).. What is interesting what Muslims embraced circumcision which is an identification for Judaism

    Any additional information to shear ?
     
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  3. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Probably about the time they embraced the idea that Abram's house landed from heaven, like where Dorothy went from B&W to color. You know, the monolith at the shrine? You know they are touching it believing God's (Eli, Eloi, Elohim, Allah) grace will transmit into their being, so they may be saved (praise the lord/Halleluia/Enchallah).

    I would also note that Islam derives from some of the earliest Christian heretics who were driven into Syria and eastward as the First Amendment hadn't been invented yet.

    Even more striking is the parallel between the continual branching religions have made, one evolving out of the other, almost ad infinitum, most minor branches being pruned by bloody persecutions.

    PLUS if you start with Zoroastrianism, and work your way to Islam, you go through I guess at least five evolutionary branches, ending up back where you started, Iran, where the Zoroastrians - remember them? - had to be put down as being anathema to the then present incarnation of Islam.

    Or if you want to trace Judaism through Islam, I guess you start in Ur (Iraq), migrate, invent Judaism, antagonize/be-antagonized-by your progeny/ancestors, then evolve Christianity, heresy, then Islam, then go back to Iraq and get rid of the sects there until Islam is official. Another cycle of the same. No?

    Oh, then there's the Anabaptist cycle, which is more an intellectual loop (or anti-intellectual some say) rather than conquest since the Crusades kind of killed the idea of that (except for Spain of course, which went straight into genocide of americans as soon as they got rid of "the moor").

    Yeah well anyway the Anabaptists have this virtual slaughter instead, where, having evolved from Catholicism, through a few stages, they branch into some anti-Catholic sects that will swear on the Holy Bible that the Devil sits on the throne in Rome (really just an old usually italian guy). What makes that "loopey" is that they already forgot that the thing they call Bible is entirely sourced from Catholic works. Aint that crazy? Hey, you gotta believe, brother.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2011
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  5. arauca Banned Banned

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    I think it us incorrect to call Christian those Jews who embraced Yasua ,
    they were called " the way or Nazarim " the name Christian come from the north Greek speaking.

    [QUOTE
    Even more striking is the parallel between the continual branching religions have made, one evolving out of the other, almost ad infinitum, most minor branches being pruned by bloody persecutions.

    PLUS if you start with Zoroastrianism, and work your way to Islam, you go through I guess at least five evolutionary branches, ending up back where you started, Iran, where the Zoroastrians - remember them? - had to be put down as being anathema to the then present incarnation of Islam.

    Or if you want to trace Judaism through Islam, I guess you start in Ur (Iraq), migrate, invent Judaism, antagonize/be-antagonized-by your progeny/ancestors, then evolve Christianity, heresy, then Islam, then go back to Iraq and get rid of the sects there until Islam is official. Another cycle of the same. No?

    Oh, then there's the Anabaptist cycle, which is more an intellectual loop (or anti-intellectual some say) rather than conquest since the Crusades kind of killed the idea of that (except for Spain of course, which went straight into genocide of americans as soon as they got rid of "the moor").

    Yeah well anyway the Anabaptists have this virtual slaughter instead, where, having evolved from Catholicism, through a few stages, they branch into some anti-Catholic sects that will swear on the Holy Bible that the Devil sits on the throne in Rome (really just an old usually italian guy). What makes that "loopey" is that they already forgot that the thing they call Bible is entirely sourced from Catholic works. Aint that crazy? Hey, you gotta believe, brother.[/QUOTE]
     
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  7. harvestdoing Registered Member

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    Sorry you are mistaken. Muhammed was born in 570 in the Arabian city of Mecca, he was orphaned at an early age and brought up under the care of his uncle Abu Talib. He later worked mostly as a merchant, as well as a shepherd, and was first married by age 25. Discontented with life in Mecca, he retreated to a cave in the surrounding mountains for meditation and reflection. According to Islamic beliefs it was here, at age 40, in the month of Ramadan, where he received his first revelation from God. Three years after this event Muhammad started preaching these revelations publicly, proclaiming that "God is One", that complete "surrender" to Him (lit. islām) is the only way acceptable to God, and that he himself was a prophet and messenger of God, in the same vein as other Islamic prophets.
    Muhammad gained few followers early on, and was met with hostility from some Meccan tribes; he and his followers were treated harshly. To escape persecution, Muhammad sent some of his followers to Abyssinia before he and his remaining followers in Mecca migrated to Medina (then known as Yathrib) in the year 622. This event, the Hijra, marks the beginning of the Islamic calendar, which is also known as the Hijri Calendar. In Medina, Muhammad united the conflicting tribes, and after eight years of fighting with the Meccan tribes, his followers, who by then had grown to 10,000, conquered Mecca.

    The Quran is heresy because it contradicts itself, Muslim scholars must use the Bible to interpret certain passages because complete information is not found in its pages, it mentions people who have no historic proof of existence, while the people and places of the Bible have historic and archeological evidence. Further the Quran is heresy because it borrows information from both Judaism and Christianity and leaves out the most important reason God intervened in human history. Which is that all men have done wrong and deserve punishment. We have all not only sinned against God's commands but also have sinned against our own consciences - our own standard of what we believe is right and wrong. Unfortunately the punishment for all our sin is death (which is why we all die) but God in His love paid the penalty for our sin by sending His Son as a man (the incarnation and the reason we celebrate Christmas). This payment for sin is given to all who will believe and place their trust in Jesus. For God so loved the world that He sent His one and only Son that whosoever believes in Him would not perish but have eternal life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him might have life. (and) God showed His love for us in this, while we were still sinners Christ died for us.

    If you recognize that you have disobeyed your own conscience, if you recognize that you have suffered the consequences of your actions that have been unpleasant then maybe you can also recognize your need for forgiveness. Forgiveness is found in Jesus Christ's sacrifice - the fulfillment of all the Jewish sacrifices (made once for all). If you ask Him to forgive you and confess your faith in Him God will give you His Spirit which will teach you and lead you into the truth that sets you free from your sin.
     
  8. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    Er, not to its followers.

    As does the bible. Does that mean the bible is heretical also?

    Except for Jesus. And god. And a few others...

    The rest of your post appears to be preaching.
    Please read the forum rules: it's not allowed and can get you banned.
     
  9. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    * * * * NOTE FROM A MODERATOR * * * *

    Preaching is forbidden on this website. If you do it again you will be banned.
     
  10. arauca Banned Banned

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    Would you stop bashing , the man have corrected me an I have learned something about Mohamed
     
  11. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    Yet the man posted misinformation.
    And preached. :shrug:
     
  12. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Yes of course Muhammed was visited by the angel ...Gabriel? after (some say) a long deprivation of food and water ...I went thru that recently, being evicted by my spouse... nevertheless I would hope that you would take from the idea of evolutionary religion that when GABRIEL came to call, Muhammed had obviously already heard the name. From who? I don't think too many Jews were in the area. But these evicted (like me) christians.. I want to say they were Marcionites... They were likely the sect that brought the name "Gabriel" (and a lot of other names he heard in his stupor). Muhammed did not grow up in a bubble. He was the product of everything around him. Just a guy. (Peace be upon him).

    Sorry uh you fundamentalist guys up there but I just can't see my way into any of the denial that is required to adopt your position. I may be dumb, but I 'm not stupid. Or is it the other way around. Always get it backwards. But I think I'm right about the Marcionites. I didn't look it up before blabbering.

    Even when I'm wrong, it's not about me. It's about evidence. I can't understand why some of yall still insist the world is flat, magicians walk on water, and today is the first day that may soul can be saved because you've got a formula that overrides all of reality as I understand -and yes- believe it.

    So is the world really flat? Do tell.
     
  13. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    no I meant muslims. you started by noting muslims circumcise, thus derivative of judaism. I was noting that islam contains a lot of other influence from judaism, beginning with adam and eve, and having abraham as their patriarch.
    check out the story of the Kabah (the black box at the shrine):

    The Qur'an states that Abraham, together with Ishmael, raised the foundations of the holy house.[18] God had shown Abraham the exact site, very near to the Well of Zamzam, where Abraham and Ishmael began work on the Kaaba's construction or, according to tradition, reconstruction as Muslims generally believe that Adam had made it first and that it had been rebuilt by Noah after the Deluge.[19] After Abraham had built the Kaaba, an angel brought to him the Black Stone, a celestial stone that, according to tradition, had fallen from Heaven on the nearby hill Abu Qubays.[20] According to a saying attributed to Muhammad, the Black Stone had "descended from Paradise whiter than milk but the sins of the sons of Adam had made it black".[21]

    Now where did they get circumcision? Same place they got all of these other names, places, stories, myths, superstitions, ideas and, of course, morals. All of the religions of the regions accessible to wanderers blended and evolved and influenced each other forever and a day. All those parallels between Greek and Roman gods/godesses - same same. Here you have a region that blended with really exotic stuff - sumerian, persian, ethiopian, their own local pre-islamic religions. then came judaism, and christianity to the mix. cook for a few hundred years, and what do you get? Islam. Not bad. Old, yes, but bad, no. Like what I had for dinner, by the way.

    Speaking of which, here's more food for thought: what else was going on around the time Muhammad arose out of obscurity? the vulgate bible had just been around a few generations - 170 yrs? anyway this phenomenon of a creeping liturgy on the frontier had to impact his world view. the fall of rome, stuff like that. religions (e.g. christianity) are forged out of turmoil and the transfusions between cultures that takes place when they bleed all over each other.
     
  14. Me-Ki-Gal Banned Banned

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    [/QUOTE]

    Sumerians , Ur all that . I think it started in South Africa and there became trade roots more ancient than the written word . Then Migrated north and found the fertile crescent. It was way after this the Sumerian culture was formed in what we think and explore today . The King list is intriguing . I mean people don't live 30,000 years . That sounds biblical kind of talk . What if it was an unbroken succession of king Dink. Meaning if you were ruler-ship you were named the same name as the last king . Like Popes when they take there new Pope name .

    Fuck I just want to interject " Mah wo ee I can play guitar . The Mary really brings it out of Me . Listening Right now . God I got to get more of that shiot
    Sorry Unbelievable . Fuck . I think I am a guitar player
     
  15. Me-Ki-Gal Banned Banned

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    what do you mean by ( Like Me) and what does May Soul mean . Can you clarify that for Me . It is kind of strange verbiage. Who are the Marcionites ? Backward Christians ? Peasants ? Were they peasants . I am going to google those rascals
     
  16. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Many moons before Jews adopted circumcision, Egyptians were doing it as a matter of course.

    There is no evidence of Jewish tribes in Arabia, except from later traditions quoting ONLY one Jewish person after the Arabs conquered Palestine. There is however evidence that Arabs were trading spice and silk with Egypt since antiquity

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incense_Route

    Its quite possible that circumcision is something which Arabs didn't give up, rather than something they adopted after Islam. The Qur'an itself is against body mutilation and does not speak of circumcision anywhere
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2011
  17. Me-Ki-Gal Banned Banned

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    Wow just got back from google myster . That Marcion Guy he be like an ancient " I Am The Greatest " Unbelievable . Doppelganger. I wonder if "I am The Greatsest" will see him self in that guy ? God as Satan all over that one
     
  18. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    namely: Mohammad, Mosses and Jesus. There is NO contemporary evidence for any of those people ever having lived.
     
  19. Me-Ki-Gal Banned Banned

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    Don't include me in you bunch of sinners . I live in the perfect will of him who sent Me . You should know by now I am all about my fathers business
     
  20. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Hi mi-ki.


    neither answer will help. the first (like me) was referring to my eviction in a divorce. way off the point and I guess ego-something. the second one "may soul" is a typoed rendition of "my soul"


    I think I was wrong about the Marcionites - I think they tended more to the north and east of Israel, and I guess in the places Paul went.

    You will indeed be scandalized by Marcion especially if you are a fundamentalist. Same with the Gnostics. Let's face it, by the time Muhammad (p.b.u.h.) shows up on the scene, heresies have sprung up all over the region like wildfire. It's all secondary information, but you can see how, during a purge of heretics, there will be refugees and this would certainly increase the odds of a christian wandering into Arabia. Regardless of all that, the very utterance of "Adam", "Abraham", "Gabriel", etc. indicates that these people had prior contact with the Bible story. They adopted it into their own story. It's the pattern of cultural development that repeats itself over and over throughout history. I say christian not jew also because Muhammad (p.b.u.h.) also knew the Jesus story.

    Of course, if you are a fundamentalist, the issue goes away, because all you have to do is deny evidence of every kind and nothing matters anyway because there's a Big Plan and we're all doomed, those of us who ate an apple or something.
     
  21. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    When was the camel domesticated in Arabia? Cos that would probably help to pinpoint when people were able to survive crossing the desert from the Levant into Arabia

    Like Sleeping Beauty?
     
  22. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Sumerians , Ur all that . I think it started in South Africa and there became trade roots more ancient than the written word . Then Migrated north and found the fertile crescent. It was way after this the Sumerian culture was formed in what we think and explore today . The King list is intriguing . I mean people don't live 30,000 years . That sounds biblical kind of talk . What if it was an unbroken succession of king Dink. Meaning if you were ruler-ship you were named the same name as the last king . Like Popes when they take there new Pope name .

    Fuck I just want to interject " Mah wo ee I can play guitar . The Mary really brings it out of Me . Listening Right now . God I got to get more of that shiot
    Sorry Unbelievable . Fuck . I think I am a guitar player[/QUOTE]


    It would be hard to get to Irag from South Africa by going due noth, but I guess you meant north then way way to the east?

    I guess you know Ur has been excavated. So we can't deny it, right? Also the Sumerians/Assyrians/Babylonians left 10s of 1000s of tablets. my favorite is the Epic of Gilgamesh and it pertains to this discussion because it makes clear that the Noah story was imported from Iraq.

    I would offer that humans evolved wherever the oldest remains have been found, maybe Somalia? but not sure about S. Africa. But that's millions of years ago. Not sure how bronze age S. Africans figure into this.

    Are you a fundamentalist Christian? How come so many religious people like to randomly say "fuck"? Because they don't get to say it in church? Play guitar? Me 2. Ok bye.
     
  23. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Seems like camels are mentioned in the old testament. Not sure. But for sure they were abundant in the 6th C. in the reign of Muhammad (pbuh).

    and yes, Eve and Sleeping Beauty, and Brunhilde and no telling how many other fabled vixen have hamstrung all of humanity one way or another.

    Stories, stories, stories. When will they invent a religion that cares about evidence? Not your fabricated versions. real stuff. There's megatons of evidence of every kind. Why must it be discarded to favor some magical mystery tour of reality?
     

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