Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (cold fusion)

[Billy T]

It is simple to verify that multiplication and subtraction has been done correctly. ...

Yes but that was not my point. My point was it is always better to directly measure (in this case the difference in terminal voltages) than the two voltages separately and later compute their difference. I was not questioning the accuracy of math procedures.

For simple example of this principle:

To determine how far apart two NYC light posts in front of Macy on 5th avenue are I can (1) measure directly between them with yard 100 yard tape, Or (2) first drive to one with my car odometer set to zero, from point many blocks south and when at light post "A", right down the odometer reading. Then return to the starting point, reset the odometer to zero and drive up to the other "B" and record that odometer reading and subtract with no math error.

Switching back to the problem we are discussing, Assume the E-cat terminal voltage is in fact 87.12345 volts and the D-cat's is 87.12350V. If your volt meters are accurate to 8 or more significant figures method (2) will works almost as well as method (1) which with a differential comparator is directly measuring the 0.00005V difference, even if it is only accurate to three significant figures.

[Captain Kremmen]

I may have been prescient when I suggested that this affair had religious overtones. The emphasis on belief. Snakes etc.
The editor of the Free Energy site, Sterling D Allen, is also the editor of the as yet unauthorised Leonardo Corporation site.

The man has no shame.
He indulges himself in the biggest butt kissing operation since Prince Charles met Spike Milligan,
and Rossi won't give him his imprimatur.
Does he say ferk you? No he does not.

Some of his other interests are Millenarianism, Survivalism, and Bible Codes.
He was present at the 1MW test.
So, under the "Birds of a feather flock together" rule, Rossi must have similar wacky ideas.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sterlingda

I've just had this horrible vision of a group of Rossi disciples in kaftans, waving incense, chanting, powering an enormous e-cat with nickel, hydrogen, and prayer power.
Nah, it's just a wild, wrong thought. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
Isn't it?


For information on the Spike Milligan reference see:
http://www.guy-sports.com/humor/come...e_milligan.htm


(Which also contained these jokes)
Spike Milligan Jokes

Spike Milligan: 'How are you at Mathematics?' .
Harry Secombe: 'I speak it like a native'.

Many people die of thirst but the Irish are born with one.

All men are cremated equal.

Apéritif:: French for a set of dentures.

Sad Hamlet to Ophelia: 'I'll do a sketch of thee, what kind of pencil shall I use?
2B, or not 2B?'

I turned and rubbed my hands with glee. I always keep a tin of glee handy.

Spike: there's only one cure for seasickness
Somebody: what's that?
Spike: climb a tree.

[Walter L. Wagner]

The claim is that the 'fusion' takes place with release of few gamma photons. But some are released, and are shielded with 2 cm of lead surrounding the 'device'.

The physics that would allow for fusion without gamma release is problematic, but the claim is novel conditions allow for this. However, they also say some gamma photons are produced, and hence the need for shielding.

Gamma photons are ridiculously easy to detect. A small, hand-held, scintillation counter has detection efficiencies of upwards of 50% or greater for each photon that traverses through it. Evidence of gamma photons would be conclusive evidence of a fusion reaction.

My question is, why haven't any of the so-called physicists who have studied the 'device' taken a small, cheap ($1500) portable hand-held scintillation counter to the 'device' to check for gamma photons?

If some gamma photons aren't being produced, why the lead shielding? Even if only 1 in a 1,000,000,000 fusions produced a stray gamma photon, requiring the lead shielding, the scintillation detector would be going off-scale at the claimed heat-production rate.

[Billy T]

To Walter:
I always suspected you were one of the snakes who could think but would it not be even cheaper to just put a common film badge inside the lead shield?

[Walter L. Wagner]

To Walter:
I always suspected you were one of the snakes who could think but would it not be even cheaper to just put a common film badge inside the lead shield?

No, because the film badge would be used up and couldn't be used over again. That's about $1 wasted. A TLD-detector (like we use on fingers and other regions fo the body for our nuclear medicine technicians, nurses and doctors) could be processed at minimal cost ($.01 of electricity or less). The ease of use of the hand-held detector, and near-zero cost (about 1-2 seconds of drain on the 9V battery), with instantaneous audible and meter read-out, would be very convincing and conclusive proof of gamma photons, and hence a fusion reaction if it is shown it happens when the 'device' is in 'running' mode.

[Captain Kremmen]

More snake talk.

[Billy T]

No, because the film badge would be used up and couldn't be used over again. That's about $1 wasted. ...

If allowed to place two layers of lead foil over the film badge I will pay the $1. The outer layer will be thicker and uniform. The layer next to the badge will have SCAM cut thru part of it with an Exacto knife.

[kwhilborn]

A petition was started today directed at the white house. Apparently once 25 000 signatures are submitted the White House makes a response.

At the very least they will be aware of the technology whether it is true or not, and can investigate it before spending 5 billion on another nuclear power plant.

To sign the whitehouse petition you must spend a few minutes registering to the Whitehouse website. One of the emailed verification things. I did it though, as I feel it is important to know one way or the other if this technology is true.

To sign the petition click this link below.

http://wh.gov/j3P

Hopefully Sciforums can add at least a few signatures to the list.

[Read-Only]

A petition was started today directed at the white house. Apparently once 25 000 signatures are submitted the White House makes a response.

At the very least they will be aware of the technology whether it is true or not, and can investigate it before spending 5 billion on another nuclear power plant.

To sign the whitehouse petition you must spend a few minutes registering to the Whitehouse website. One of the emailed verification things. I did it though, as I feel it is important to know one way or the other if this technology is true.

To sign the petition click this link below.

http://wh.gov/j3P

Hopefully Sciforums can add at least a few signatures to the list.

A quote from that petition:

Other agencies or agents of the Federal Government including NASA, Department of Navy, DARPA have investigated these devices and believe they have great potential but they have kept as silent as possible on their findings.

If that statement is accurate - which I strongly doubt!! - WHY would they have kept it "as silent as possible???" That should raise a serious alarm in the mind of ANY rational person!

[stane]

if that statement is accurate and they found out it`s just another scam, WHY would they have kept it "as silent as possible"?

I would report it if I were them (NASA, etc). It`s a crime, isn`t it?

To get their(people from wh.gov) attention, at least to confirm that statement, might be the fastest way (which I doubt, but at least better than do nothing) to end this confusion, scam, or whatever.

[kwhilborn]

Just sign the petition and maybe we can find out...

Yes.. I have seen NASA interest, and they apparently agreed to test it, but no results were ever shown. Krivit used that as an argument against the ecat stating Rossi could not get it to work for NASA.

We know Bushnell one of NASAs top scientists was in favour of cold fusion last year. We know he was following Rossis device. It is not too great a leap to believe they have been involved with it.
Rossi said NASA is interested in the ecat. Rossi stated that the organization that purchased the ecat was going to use it for remote camp heating.

So yeah! lots of rumours floating around. Because it was a colonel testing the ecat on the 28th and not Rossi, some think it is a Navy purchase, etc.

The customers wish to remain secret, yet it was a Colonel doing the testing.. HMM..

There is now a long list of scholars who are saying that the ecat does work. This includes 2 physics departments from 2 very old and prestigious Universities. The mainstream media is also getting involved.

The scam scenario looks very bleak.

So anyone still clinging to the scam scenario is insulting a lot of serious scientists. If the base of the skepticism comes from just negativity then that is wrong.

The University of Bologna and the University of Uppsala have put their names behind this, and one professor claimed it was insulting that colleagues would remain so skeptical at their claims.

Rossi is not a backyard chemist who showed up on Youtube with a crazy invention. He is part of a team that has improved upon Piantellis results. Years have been invested, and much private money. The only scenario that makes a scam scenario seem plausible in my books is if he is hoping the oil industry will send him a Billion dollar retirement package. I think they would probably just make him "disappear" before that option though.

Let's all sign the petition and get it sorted out.

Could the Catalyst be a vibration.. like sound waves?

[Captain Kremmen]

You are the only believer left, Kwhil.
The rest of them are


's

Re your petition.
I usually sign petitions, but you have to give your email address.
If they don't trust me I don't trust them.

[adoucette]

A quote from that petition:

Other agencies or agents of the Federal Government including NASA, Department of Navy, DARPA have investigated these devices and believe they have great potential but they have kept as silent as possible on their findings.

If that statement is accurate - which I strongly doubt!! - WHY would they have kept it "as silent as possible???" That should raise a serious alarm in the mind of ANY rational person!

Indeed.

In fact, Where are the reports from these agencies that supposedly is the basis for the claim that "they believe they have great potential"?

[billvon]

There is now a long list of scholars who are saying that the ecat does work. This includes 2 physics departments from 2 very old and prestigious Universities. The mainstream media is also getting involved. The scam scenario looks very bleak.

This is sounding more and more like climate change denial, and the 9/11 conspiracy theorists, and the "we never landed on the moon" crowd.

"Lots of scientists disagree with climate change!" "Here's a list of architechts who claim that Building 7 could not have possibly collapsed on its own." "Any halfway competent astronomer knows you can see STARS on the Moon."

Turns out that even when scientists get in on a scam it remains a scam.

So anyone still clinging to the scam scenario is insulting a lot of serious scientists. If the base of the skepticism comes from just negativity then that is wrong.

It's not 'negativity.' It's a simple lack of proof. He has not performed any tests - not one - that have demonstrated more energy out than in. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

The University of Bologna and the University of Uppsala have put their names behind this, and one professor claimed it was insulting that colleagues would remain so skeptical at their claims.

And the University of Southampton put their name behind cold fusion in 1989. How did that turn out?

Rossi is not a backyard chemist who showed up on Youtube with a crazy invention.

Agreed. He is an established inventor with a proven record of failure. This will be "big idea" #3. The first two failed. What does that say about his chances?

Could the Catalyst be a vibration.. like sound waves?

Sure. It also could be a fancy electric water heater. Water heater is a lot more likely based on the actual data.

But just use your imagination for a second. Imagine what happens once Rossi is unmasked. The next time someone comes along with an unsupportable scheme to scam us, we'll throw him in a lake! Science will come out ahead, and the scammers who try to replace science with hype will end up all wet.

[Yazata]

A petition was started today directed at the white house. Apparently once 25 000 signatures are submitted the White House makes a response.

At the very least they will be aware of the technology whether it is true or not, and can investigate it before spending 5 billion on another nuclear power plant.

Weren't you insisting a couple of months ago that the National Aeronautics and Space Administration had ENDORSED Rossi? (Despite the fact that no NASA webpage even mentions his name?) What happened to that grandiose (if unbelievable) claim?

The US government can't simultaneously be clueless about Rossi while being among the authorities that (so we are told) give him his credibility.

Your petition effectively contradicts many of your earlier claims.

I think that Rossi is effectively a con-artist. I don't know whether he's doing that knowingly and intentionally, hoping to separate credulous investors from their money, or whether he's just a crank who might even believe it himself. But whatever the answer to that, I don't find any of this stuff even remotely believable.

And neither do real scientists and engineers, apparently. If there was anything to this, every scientific website in the world would be excitedly talking about it. It would be the leading topic of conversation in the scientific press and at all the physics and engineering professional organizations.

I've seen NASA press conferences when something big is announced (extra-solar planets in that case) and they were standing-room only. Word was buzzing among astronomers around the world in hours. That's how I'd expect this to work if real scientists thought that it was true. But instead it always seems to be some YouTube video whose provenance is murky. There's never a peep out of the American Physical Society, the IEEE, or any of their credible foreign equivalents.

That's the signature that one expects of con-artists and cranks, people.

This thing has the same faintly-rotton odor as ufo conspiracy theories, parapsychology, creation 'science' or channeling ascended masters.

One of the things that makes me increasingly doubtful about the Sciforums site in general is the fact that threads like this one aren't quickly moved down to the 'alternative theories' or 'conspiracies' areas.

[Captain Kremmen]

One of the things that makes me increasingly doubtful about the Sciforums site in general is the fact that threads like this one aren't quickly moved down to the 'alternative theories' or 'conspiracies' areas.

It might be worrying if unsuspecting people reading the threads were misled, but how many posts on here do you have to read without unsubstantiated or unscientific ideas being countered?

This thread is a good example.
It's healthy dialogue, and good ideas are supplanting the bad ones.

[origin]

307 knuckleheads have signed the petition. There is one born every minute.

[kwhilborn]

That's not quite true Captain.

The population of believers is growing and I cannot even fathom a scam scenario anymore.

First of all we have Piantelli who basically discovered the nickel/hydrogen process. He now has a company called Nichenergy. Piantelli has applied for patents and is only claiming a 2-4 times energy gain. He is missing something key that rossi has. Whatever catalyst is being used. I'm guessing harmonic sound might be in play, but that's a guess. Allegedly; Piantelli has a theory that doesn’t require exotic reactions, but can be explained using known physics and mathematics. A semi-complete theory has been provided to the University of Siena and will be published shortly. The complete theory will probably be disclosed after the first commercial units have been sold.

-----------------------------------------------
According to Dennis Bushnell, chief scientist at NASA’s Langley Research Center in Hampton, Virginia, NASA was working years ago on experiments based on Piantelli’s research, and that it continues.

So NASA is doing Hydrogen/Nickel experiments admittedly.

http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2011/...lenr-research/

Hello... Please pay attention, because I am listing stuff that has been repeated before, and yet the proof seems overwhelmingly in favour of the ecat being a working device.

Forget Rossi, just appreciate the work done by Francesco Piantelli

Please have a look at the above link.. here it is again.

http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2011/...lenr-research/

a quote from his bio,

In 1989 Francesco Piantelli-Musso, a biologist at the University of Siena, in the course of his experiments with samples of organic material, noted an anomalous heat production. He made the information public. Focardi also observed the phenomenon and the two scientists decided to create a working group. They later added Roberto Habel, a member of the INFN at the University of Cagliari, as a member. This was in order to extensively study the cause of that anomaly in the formal of thermal energy.

In 1996, an attempt was made to replicate experiment of Piantelli-Musso and Focardi at CERN. This was done by a group of CERN in Geneva . It was directed by Antonino Zichichi who then tried a replica of the experiment of Piantelli-Musso and Focardi. The study went on for almost a year. However, in the end has, there was no favorable outcome to the hypothesis of an explanation of nuclear nature of the phenomenon.

Again in 1999, another attempt was made to replicate the experiment of Piantelli-Musso and Focardi. This was done in the Italian city of Pavia. Piantelli-Musso and Focardi have repeatedly stated that the cell has been built and successfully tested at the respective laboratories at the University of Siena and at the University of Bologna. However, until now there have been other experimental positive feedback by independent groups of researchers

So we have Patents being issued to Francesco Piantelli for the exact same thing as what Andrea Rossi is doing, except Andrea Rossi is claiming his is superior.

Now Andrea Rossi is one of those guys who likes to duplicate experiments and try to replicate the results. He duplicated the Pons fleischmann cold fusion experiment with Paladium and hydrogen.

He used a catalyst when re-creating the Francesco Piantelli experiment and has claimed superior results.

According to New Energy Times On Sept. 22, NASA conducted a LENR (Low Energy Nuclear Reaction) Innovation Forum workshop at Glenn Research Center in Cleveland, Ohio. Speakers included NASA scientists Joseph Zawodny, Gustave Fralick, Michael Nelson, Jim Dunn and Dennis Bushnell and retired University of Illinois professor George Miley.

At the meeting, Bushnell said that LENR has a strong potential for a new source of energy. He was optimistic about nickel powder LENR solutions.


This Workshop can be confirmed to have occurred by looking at the bottom of this NASA website where it states,

Relevant Presentation:
+ Download presentation given at a LENR Workshop at NASA GRC in 2011 [available soon].

at this web address,
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/sensors/PhySen/research.htm

So the Chief Scientist at NASA Langley Research Center, Dennis Bushnell is OPTIMISTIC about the ecat.

NOW LISTEN TO THIS.....
“The temperature you can get out of [LENR] is interesting,” Bushnell said. “We’ve had to be careful [in our research in] terms of the energetics. I don’t think there is a power [limitation] problem.

“I think the problem now is of raw courage to look into something that is new. We’ve been fortunate to have a center director at Langley that has the courage to support us to do this. We’ve been at it for three or four years.


Click on this to see that NASA has readily admitted to replicating the Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (LENR), from Nickel/hydrogen. This is admitted freely.
http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2011/...-confirmation/

So NASA is saying they have been doing Nickel/Hydrogen cold fusion at the NASA Langley Research Center for three or four years.

IF you doubt Rossi.. Do you still doubt Francesco Piantelli, and Dennis Bushnell

Piantelli claims his earlier units reported two to four times energy gain, but new units are underway. According to reports, these new units will have two hundred times energy gained. These units are expected to be completed in the next couple of months.

WoW!! So we have a race going on here.

Piantelli (who seems like the inventor), then Rossi who seems to have modified the idea, and NASA plugging away at Langley Research Centre for three or four years.

3 different parties... all claiming the same thing.

Okay now back to Andrea Rossi and the ecat.

Sergio Focardi - In 2007, Italian inventor Andrea Rossi, e-cat fusion key figure, contacted Focardi to collaborate on his work on cold fusion. Sergio Focardi was a participant in the well known and studied Francesco Piantelli
experiments.
From 1988 to 1990, Sergio Focardi was president of the Coordination Committee of Italian Scientific Associations also known as COASSI. From 1980 to 1989, he was dean of the faculty of mathematical, physical and natural sciences. Also, from 1992 to 2000, he was chairman of the Board of Bachelor of Information Sciences in Cesena. It was this capacity that he founded the course of Information Science in Bologna and Cesena as well as Environmental Sciences in Ravenna.
Sergio Focardi is an Italian physicist, and presently an emeritus professor at the University of Bologna. He also led the office of Bologna of Istituto Nazionale di Fisica Nucleare. His field of expertise is working on cold fusion with Nickel-Hydrogen reactors.

To hear him speak positively about the ecat click on the link below.
He does not speak english, so this video although puts a face to his endorsements is a bit tedious if you do not speak Italian. Translation is provided.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmWbV...eature=related

He has been involved with Nickel/hydrogen cold fusion research since 1989. THAT is 22 years ago...

So this was not an overnight invention.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Giuseppe Levi - Nuclear and Supernuclear Physics Professor at the University of Bologna.


He can be viewed speaking for an entire hour starting on the youtube link below. In English..
http://www.e-catworld.com/2011/08/gu...-of-the-e-cat/

Levi is one of the scientists who has had the opportunity to run tests on the device, and was involved in the press conference on January 14th, and is a member of the American SKEPTICS Society.

He suggested it is insulting that colleagues do not accept their verifications.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sven kullander - Also has tested and has lent support backing the stance of The University of Uppsala. Some of his qualifications and merits I have listed here.

Awards
Björkens prize for year 2000
Membership in Societies and Academies
Swedish Physical SocietyEuropean Physical Society
Finnish Society of Sciences and Letters
Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences
Royal Academy of Arts and Sciences in Uppsala
Royal Society of Sciences
Committee Memberships
Nuclear Physics Research Committee, CERN, 1968 - 1969
Swiss Institute for Nuclear Research, 1968 - 1970
Swedish Atomic Research Council, 1975 - 1977
Committee for Physics Experiments at the CERN Proton Synchrotron, 1977 - 1979
Swedish Natural Science Research Council, 1977 - 1983
CERN Council, 1980 - 1983
CERN Research Board, 1982 - 1984
Board of the Faculty of Mathematics and Natural Sciences, Uppsala, 1984 - 1993
Scientific Council of the Cooler Ring COSY project, Jülich, Germany, 1989 - 1992
Programme Advisory Committee, COSY, Jülich, 1994 -
Scientific Policy Committee, Max Planck Institute for Nuclear Physics, Heidelberg, 1991-
Swedish CERN Committee, 1977 - 1995
Asea Brown Boveri Energy Prize Award committee, 1990 - 1997
Board of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences, 1998 -present

Sven Kullander has also come forward in favour of the ecat, and is preparing to deliver a lecture later this month on Low Energy Nuclear reactions.

Sven Kullander, professor of high energy physics at Uppsala University and chairman of Sweden’s Royal Academy of Sciences Energy Committee will be giving a public lecture entitled “Tomorrow’s Nuclear Power — Will it be Cold or Hot?” at Orebro University in Sweden on November 23rd at 16:30 in lecture hall T in Tech House. This lecture is free.

PART OF WHAT THE PAMPHLET READS ON THE INVITATION TO THIS LECTURE IS THE FOLLOWING.............
PLEASE READ THIS BIT.
Cold fusion has been developed recently in Bologna can be housed in an apparatus which is not much bigger than a coffee maker and generating energy only with a few teaspoons of nickel powder.
 An intensive discussion on the net have questioned the experiment in Bologna mainly because it can not be explained by the established nuclear physics theory. It has also been speculated that the derivative produced heat energy must have been greatly overestimated mainly by an overestimation of the buildup of steam. At the lecture, these issues will be treated in order to gain a better understanding of the experiment in Bologna.

Okay...

So far we know that

- NASA believes in the technology and has been conducting nickel/Hydrogen cold fusion experiments for the past three to four years.

For people doubting NASA has been involved in this, look at this NASA webpage.
http://open.nasa.gov/appschallenge/i...oftware-model/
Please note that is not a pro Rossi website, but NASA.

- The University of Bologna has lent its name to support the ecat.

- The University of Uppsala has lent its name to support the ecat.

- We have at least three competing bodies trying to get "ecats" to market. Piantelli, Nasa, and Rossi.

- Dennis Bushnell the Chief research Scientist at NASA Research Center in Langley not only believes in the ecat, but has been working on such a device himself for the past three to four years.

- Professor Sergio Focardi has witnessed Piantellis results, and Rossi's results, and has come out saying the ecat is a real thing with nuclear reactions taking place.

- Professor Sven Kullander has witnessed the ecat in operation and has come out heavily in support of the ecat. It would be fun to hear his lecture later this month.

- Professor Giuseppe Levi is a Nuclear and supernuclear physicist at the University of Bologna and a member of The American Skeptics Society. He has witness the ecat in operation many times, and speaks very highly of it. Kri interviewed him, and the 1 hour video link to his speaking of it is very convincing.

There are many more names of Professors and scholars who have witnessed this device and are standing behind it, but you should get the idea that this is supported by academics.

So Captain Kremmen, I am far from being the only person left believing in the ecat, and the believers grow daily.

The idea that Rossi has spent the past few years sponsoring himself for a scam seems ridiculous, and I cannot believe how many people do not seem to see how ridiculous a scam scenario is. It's common sense.

Anyways. I have read and heard a lot more that what I have wrote and linked here, but I think I give a compelling argument for the ecats merits.

[billvon]

The population of believers is growing and I cannot even fathom a scam scenario anymore.

And that's the problem. Rossi has believers, not scientists; it's becoming a cult rather than a scientific project.

[kwhilborn]

You obviously did not read what i wrote, as I provided a long list of scientists who endorse this. Read post 518, and then talk to me. I cannot imagine anyone who reads post 518, and follows the links provided could have any doubts as to the ecats validity.