Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (cold fusion)

**Captain Kremmen** · 10-09-11, 02:34 AM

Originally Posted by Read-Only

I don't see how you could possibly have ANY hope for this thing, especially if you've paid any attention to this thread and the links given. All the way back to when Rossi first tried to scam the US government on his fake claims of "advanced" solar (PV) panels.

Have you any links to this solar panel scam.
I've read quite a lot about him, and haven't seen that.

**Read-Only** · 10-09-11, 06:33 AM

Originally Posted by Captain Kremmen

Have you any links to this solar panel scam.
I've read quite a lot about him, and haven't seen that.

Sorry, CK, at this moment I don't. It was somewhere in the middle of thousands of pages I went through when this "invention" first showed up. The article was very convincing, impartial, and seemed genuine. It was describing the rise and eventual demise of one of the several companies that Rossi founded with the help of others that wound up going out of business.

I really wish that I had bookmarked it but at the time it didn't seem necessary.

**Captain Kremmen** · 10-09-11, 09:30 AM

I half remember reading some stuff myself about him getting into trouble for a recycling project in Italy, but the writer indicated that the trouble arose from Rossi not greasing the right palms, rather than him attempting a fraud.

He is talking about running out of money and mortgaging his house.
Looking at the equipment, I can believe it.
I think he is banking everything on the project, and if it fails I think he will be personally broke.

If there was a serious question mark over his character, I think we would know.

This is like a scientific soap opera.
A fascinating thing to watch as it happens, no matter where it leads to.
I think it's probably bunkum, but at the back of my mind there is a little spark of hope that he might have something.
I hope he has something.

Regarding solar panels, people have lost millions recently from investments in a new kind of solar power dish,
which doesn't work properly. The US Government burned half a Billion on it.
Look up Solyndra.

**Tronkostroglutegunkr** · 10-09-11, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Read-Only

What "publicity"?? The *only* places publishing any of this garbage are a couple of little, out-of-the-way blog sites!

It hasn't received mainstream media coverage, but it's widely known to the public by now nonetheless, and it's all on record on the internet, and people will be investing in this technology.

If it turns out that Rossi sells a load of units, and then they turn out to not work, he's effed. It WILL get mainstream coverage then, and the processes that led up to the fraud are on record all over the net, so the evidence would be clear.

I sincerely ask: is he going to be able to just run away to Switzerland or something? After pulling such a stunt, to toy with the idea of solving the world's energy needs, I'd say he would not only be in danger of the law, but in danger of being assassinated by the goons of some very very dissatisfied customers.

**Believe** · 10-09-11, 10:48 AM

More on this:

http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?...ticle&sid=3322

http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/arti...er+6+%28pdf%29

**Read-Only** · 10-09-11, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by Believe

More on this:

http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?...ticle&sid=3322

http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/arti...er+6+%28pdf%29

We've got at least one person here, and maybe more, that don't bother following links and therefore remain unusually hopeful about e-cat. So for their benefit, here's the particularly damaging NEGATIVE information found in the second link above:

"E-Cat Test Demonstrates Energy Loss (Score: 1)
by vlad on Saturday, October 08, 2011 @ 14:40:22 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) http://www.zpenergy.com
Posted on October 8, 2011 by Steven B. Krivit on New Energy Times Blog

Promoter Andrea Rossi’s most recent test of his “energy catalyzer” failed to demonstrate the production of excess heat.

On Oct. 7, “the ‘E-cat’ invented by Andrea Rossi ran in a completely stable self-sustained mode for over three hours,” journalist Mats Lewan [www.nyteknik.se] of Ny Teknik wrote.

According to Lewan, Rossi’s device released an average of 2.5 kilowatts of heat in 3.5 hours. This amounts to 31.5 megaJoules of energy.

However, Rossi heated the device with 2.7 kilowatts of electricity for four hours in advance. This amounts to 38.88 megaJoules of energy. He also heated the device during the phase which Lewan called “self-sustaining.” The input was 115 Watts for 3.5 hours. That’s 1.44 megaJoules of energy.

Let’s do the math of the total energy input versus energy output: (38.88 + 1.44) – 31.5 = 8.82.

That’s a total energy loss of 8.82 MJ during a 7.5-hour period*. In other words, Rossi has demonstrated a water heater that is 78 percent efficient. This is inconsistent with his claims of having a device that produces substantial amounts of excess heat in comparison to input energy.

On Oct. 7, New Energy Times asked Lewan how he justified his and Rossi’s implication that the Oct. 6 experiment showed a net energy gain, as well as their claim that the device was self-sustaining.

“I don’t believe I claimed anything at all,” Lewan wrote. “And I don’t think I reported a net energy gain. I only reported the energy developed during self- sustained mode.”

These are glaring inconsistencies.

Furthermore, in his technical report, Lewan ignores the input energy from the first four-hour warm-up period.

“The E-cat was considered to be completely operating only after reaching self-sustained mode,” he wrote.

Lewan’s and Rossi’s choice to ignore the input energy from the four-hour warm-up period is like saying a sailplane can fly without power, so long as it is first carried aloft by a tow plane.

* Minor radiative losses are not included in this rough calculation.

Source: http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2011/...s-energy-loss/ [blog.newenergytimes.com]"

**spidergoat** · 10-09-11, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Read-Only

We've got at least one person here, and maybe more, that don't bother following links and therefore remain unusually hopeful about e-cat. So for their benefit, here's the particularly damaging NEGATIVE information found in the second link above:...

Yup, that's pretty much what I said in post #17:

Originally Posted by Spiderquote

What is a video supposed to prove? They have energy inputs in terms of electrical resistance (heat), and hydrogen gas. I could also heat up something and let it run by itself for an hour or so.

**Read-Only** · 10-09-11, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by spidergoat

Yup, that's pretty much what I said in post #17:

And I agree with you completely!

One could also charge up a bank of rechargeable batteries and then slowly discharge them for a period of hours or even days. Using your suggestion or mine, the result is what the idiot Rossi would call a "self sustaining" output.

Smoke and mirrors. AND dishonesty!!

**Tronkostroglutegunkr** · 10-09-11, 03:06 PM

He must be either fantastically stupid or a scam genius. How is he going to get away with this? It must be something clever for it to not result in him going to jail.

**Read-Only** · 10-09-11, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by Tronkostroglutegunkr

He must be either fantastically stupid or a scam genius. How is he going to get away with this? It must be something clever for it to not result in him going to jail.

It IS possible that he's deluded himself into thinking it actually works - but I doubt it.

No, he doesn't have to be a scam genius, he can easily hide behind any one of a number of shell corporations he's created. His companies can declare insolvency and simply go bankrupt and he quickly makes his "run for the border" to somewhere that has no extradition treaty.

As I keep saying, my *primary* reason for following this thread is that I'm waiting for the lawsuits to hit the courts.

**DRZion** · 10-09-11, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by Read-Only

[B][I][COLOR="Red"]"E-Cat Test Demonstrates Energy Loss (Score: 1)
by vlad on Saturday, October 08, 2011 @ 14:40:22 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) http://www.zpenergy.com
Posted on October 8, 2011 by Steven B. Krivit on New Energy Times Blog

I wouldn't trust a thing that Krivit states about the eCat, he has shown himself to be very biased against this whole project and Rossi.. I think some more tests are in order. In the end, the thing either works or it doesn't.

I agree though that the 'self sustaining' trial should have at least shown net energy gain - otherwise its useless like you say, its basically a battery.

Well, I don't know the whole story, but it seems like he does have some kind of catalyzer. Is he really just putting heat in? If he simply pumped electriciy into this thing, then clearly it could just be a battery. But, if he pumps heat in waits a few hours and then the heat is returned, that in itself could be of value -- of course, that is not what the eCat is supposed to do. Still, such a simple analysis as presented above does not necessarily undermine the device.

**Read-Only** · 10-09-11, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by DRZion

I wouldn't trust a thing that Krivit states about the eCat, he has shown himself to be very biased against this whole project and Rossi.. I think some more tests are in order. In the end, the thing either works or it doesn't.

I agree though that the 'self sustaining' trial should have at least shown net energy gain - otherwise its useless like you say, its basically a battery.

Well, I don't know the whole story, but it seems like he does have some kind of catalyzer. Is he really just putting heat in? If he simply pumped electriciy into this thing, then clearly it could just be a battery. But, if he pumps heat in waits a few hours and then the heat is returned, that in itself could be of value -- of course, that is not what the eCat is supposed to do. Still, such a simple analysis as presented above does not necessarily undermine the device.

Personally, I'm not trusting *anybody's* reports on this whole business. At least in this particular (that I quoted) case, it appears that the reporter wasn't drawing numbers out of thin air.

Another thing is that I've become TOTALLY disgusted with this entire non-ending series of half-assed "tests" that use nothing more than crude measuring devices and even cruder techniques. That alone should have everyone that's paying attention screaming HOAX at the top of their lungs!!!

**DRZion** · 10-09-11, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by Read-Only

Personally, I'm not trusting *anybody's* reports on this whole business. At least in this particular (that I quoted) case, it appears that the reporter wasn't drawing numbers out of thin air.

Yes, in fact there is a pretty decent report on the website written by 'nyteknik' who was supposedly there.

"It can also be noted that after three and a half hours of self sustained operation water could still be felt boiling inside, putting a hand on top of the insulated casing. The surface temperature of the insulation was then between 60 and 85 degrees centigrade, meaning that a significant heat loss must have decreased the power output through the steam and the heat exchanger."

60-85 degrees on the outside - it seems this would contribute significantly to heat loss.

Originally Posted by Read-Only

Another thing is that I've become TOTALLY disgusted with this entire non-ending series of half-assed "tests" that use nothing more than crude measuring devices and even cruder techniques. That alone should have everyone that's paying attention screaming HOAX at the top of their lungs!!!

Totally agree with you here, it seems like this is at least the 10th test which doesn't really prove anything.

But maybe he has a good reason for doing this. The psychology is that a single monumental test would have had even more people screaming 'HOAX'. In addition, there would be no way to get enough interest right off the bat if he simply announced 'we have created a cold fusion reactor'. No one would listen. Maybe instead he is just incrementally and systematically trying to prove it his way. This way he doesn't draw too much heat, keeps his head above the water and keeps the project in his own hands...