Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (cold fusion)

[billvon]

You seem to think that science is a matter of doubt and belief.

For him, it is. He is angry with me because I'm not a "believer", and feels he can convert me to the faith if he just insults me enough.

Out of the hundreds of variations of experiments on LENR (formerly known as Cold Fusion}, not a single one will reliably produce excess energy.
Because that it all it would take, just one of them to work consistently.

The equipment involved is inexpensive, you could set one up yourself for $2,000.Probably less.
Why are none of these scientists creating multiple apparatuses using the same materials, and subjecting the process to double blind experimentation?

I strongly suspect they are; there are literally hundreds of scientists who have looked at it at this point. (And indeed some have posted their results as you mention, although they are largely negative.)

The problem is that "I tried it and didn't get anything repeatable" isn't something that an LENR believer is going to be willing to post on any board. Consider kwhilborn. Imagine him constructing an experiment and getting no (or ambiguous) energy output. He would likely not post those results, since he is emotionally very invested in LENR, and has said several times how good it will make him feel to make others "eat crow." Giving up on that would be very hard for him (or anyone who is similarly invested.)

[Captain Kremmen]

What annoys me is the way he accuses scientists of ignoring evidence.
If there was good statistical evidence for these reactions occurring,
every University science facility in the world would be working on it.
The reason why they are not doing so, is that in repeated tests the evidence is not there.

[kwhilborn]

@ Captain Kremmen,
New science does not become accepted overnight, however many reading this thread have been exposed to more information on this new science. The average person is more concerned with what Kim Kardashian is wearing, and I doubt less than 0.1% has any idea how close we are with LENR. It will be a few years before many University physics texts reflect LENR.
There is many published methods to replicate excess heat in LENR, so I doubt anybody trying is failing. If they are it is not for lack of instruction.

Captain Kremmen - The reason why they are not doing so, is that in repeated tests the evidence is not there.

vs

NASA - The current situation is that we now have over two decades of hundreds of experiments worldwide indicating heat and transmutations with minimal radiation and low energy input. By any rational measure, this evidence indicates something real is occurring. So, is LENR "Real?" Evidently, from the now long standing and diverse experimental evidence.

An italian High school has now released their second generation LENR device. High school kids are doing it. Google it.

@ Captain Kremmen,
Where are you getting this misleading information that

in repeated tests the evidence is not there.

You are directly in opposition to the NASA view, so I am wondering who is conducting these failed experiments?


@ Billy T,
Some more information from Francesco Celani,
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8mt...ME0/edit?pli=1
it does state fusion occurred and the fused wire is being analyzed.

[Billy T]

... @ Billy T,
Some more information from Francesco Celani,
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8mt...ME0/edit?pli=1
it does state fusion occurred and the fused wire is being analyzed.

A simple 1$ film badge radiation detector placed inside an Ecat would be more convenceing than his claims about the analysis he did considering few if any of the prior claims have held up for more than one month.

It has been known for more than 100years that hydrogen will embrittle metals

[kwhilborn]

@ Billy T,
That was from Francesco Celani and i'm not sure he calls his an ecat (That's Rossi), so I am wondering what prior claims he has made. I was under the impression the Piantelli and Celani were working in private mostly. They have repetitive anomalous heat, but it seems every front has a different reason for it. NASA has Widom-Larsen, Brian Ahern states it is not nuclear but cause by asymmetric magnetism. It is like ancient philosophers first attempts at explaining the sun.

The International Cold Fusion Conference is a lively event this year and is occurring in Korea this week.



Andrea Rossi is not demonstrating his device in September. In September his assembled group of licensees will gather in Zurich where Andrea Rossi will release third party verification papers from tests that have been conducted during the summer. So we will have at minimum third party verification. In October; the University of Bologna will test the Andrea Rossi ecat on their own and are free to publish their own papers/verification.

[Captain Kremmen]

@Kwhill
Re Dennis Bushnell, Chief Scientist at Nasa Langley Research.
Thanks for the link.
I accept your argument that a scientist in a high position at a prestigious research centre thinks that LENR is "true"
Yes, he does "believe" in LENR, and for much the same reasons as you do yourself.
He says that because there have been hundreds of experiments indicating excess heat that there must be something to it.

He cites it as one of the possible ways of reducing CO2 emissions.
LENRS , Low Energy Nuclear Reactions. Not hot fusion but weak interaction nuclear reactions. Large body of experiments world-wide and several theories indicate this is both real and understood.


He also gives credence to the tapping of Zero point energy, an idea most mainstream scientists view as akin to perpetual motion machines,
Long Term There are now 7 very interesting possibilities to tap Zero Point Energy, the Zero Quantum State.......

see http://www.science20.com/david_houle...nis_m_bushnell

He is obviously a very intelligent man, and an expert in his main field which is aeronautics.
I don't know whether his viewpoint on this is also Nasa's.

I look forward to Rossi's presentation of his latest experiments which you say will have independent verification.

[Billy T]

@ Billy T, That was from Francesco Celani ... so I am wondering what prior claims he has made. ...

I was referring to the field, not him alone. There have been 2+ decades of extraordinary claims with not even the ordinary proof.

[kwhilborn]

http://newenergytimes.com/v2/confere...ture-Paper.pdf

Brillouin published this paper on their LENR device. With September 10 approaching a few people may try to get there work in view before Andrea Rossi. 20 days to go...

I doubt it will be believed but Andrea Rossi will show verified third part testing on his stable 1000 degree LENR energy catalyser (ecat). He will also allow the University of Bologna to replicate his experiments and report their own findings.

Here is the Athanor LENR device. An open source HIGH SCHOOL version. YES HIGH SCHOOL..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khnc-...eature=related

[Captain Kremmen]

Days to Go

Twenty days to go, and all
The snakes were getting nervous
Rossi and his sidekick Cures
were kitting out their furnace.

[billvon]

Twenty days to go

Twenty days! Another countdown! Cool.

Remember the last one?

[Captain Kremmen]

Yep.


Days to Go

Nineteen days to Go. Said Rossi
"Send out for more wires.
The last ones were too straggly
and might have caused some fires."

[Billy T]

To Capt K: Why not edit your daily count down posts to add new number to right of old, instead of make new posts that pushes the earlier ones off screen?

[Rhaedas]

A simple 1$ film badge radiation detector placed inside an Ecat would be more convenceing than his claims about the analysis he did considering few if any of the prior claims have held up for more than one month.

Seems that if he detected radiation he'd have to get licensed to run it. But he's had an inspector already, and they didn't see any need.

http://ecatdoteudotcom.wordpress.com...ation-control/

That high school experiment is quite interesting. But there's even a 14 year old who has built a fusion reactor himself. Just can't get one to sustain the reaction and produce excess energy.

The Open Source LENR Project is watching all this research and patent applying, but they at least can admit that no one is quite to that goal yet. As we learn more about what exactly is going on in the physics, then we can narrow down if it's a viable energy producer and how to maximize it, or if now, how else it can be valuable. Science is always worthwhile, even if the initial goal is a failure.

Jumping to a conclusion and making claims before data is in...that's something else entirely.

[kwhilborn]

http://www.freshpatents.com/-dt20120...0120134915.php

is a Francesco Celani patent application in regards to preparing the nickel in his LENR.

I know Billy T, has feelings that the preparation of the Nickel is adding the missing energy at least in the Andrea Rossi version of this. This LENR device uses Nickel sheets so is somewhat different. It is odd to see so many approaches. We have seen ground Nickel, Nickel wire, and Nickel sheets.

[Captain Kremmen]

To Capt K: Why not edit your daily count down posts to add new number to right of old, instead of make new posts that pushes the earlier ones off screen?

Sorry, I was posting the countdown in an attempt to be humorous.
Not totally unsuccessfully.
Billvon thinks it's cool.

Tell you what.
I'll quit the countdown for now and start it again a few days out from the deadline.

My opinion is that this experiment will prove nothing.
Same as the last time.
If it is successful, I will happily eat crow, hats, or any other punishment devised by Kwhilborn.
I admire his tenacity.
I am a sceptic, but I would be very happy if it should unexpectedly work.
I will swill down my crow with champagne.

[billvon]

My opinion is that this experiment will prove nothing.

Agreed, and in another week kwhilborn will be touting the NEXT experiment that will prove, once and for all, that LENR will save the world.

Which is unfortunate, because I think at some point someone _will_ discover that something is going on in those reactors. It's not going to be the cheap energy that everyone is talking about, but we will find something new about chemistry or nuclear physics. And that will be worthwhile, even if it doesn't solve the energy crisis.

[Billy T]

... I know Billy T, has feelings that the preparation of the Nickel is adding the missing energy at least in the Andrea Rossi version of this. This LENR device uses Nickel sheets so is somewhat different. ....

I bet they are quite thin - have had a lot of surface created with use of energy in high pressure roll presses.

[kwhilborn]

On September 10th Andrea Rossi is releasing information and third party verification of his device. He is NOT doing a public experiment.

I also do not expect the media to show up unless Kim kardashian is there, nor do I expect any to accept third party verifications as proof. People won't take the word of NASA so what chance does Andrea Rossi have.

Andrea Rossi -

I do not think our convention of Zurich will raise any interest: as I always said, what counts are not chatters, what counts are working plants.

Andrea Rossi has earned some belief in my opinion as he has always demonstrated what he claims when he claims. I believe if he says he is going to release thrid party verification of his device then he will. I believe that if he claims he can sustain the reaction for months (Cannot be surface loaded for that length), then he has sustained the reaction for months.

Although it is not discussed much here he is also claiming no electrical power is needed during start up, and the reaction be started now with gas only.

He is also claiming the University of Bologna is free to test the device in October and publish the results.

So yes. September will not be the end, but I believe his product is as he claims, so it won't be many months away.

[Captain Kremmen]

You keep on saying NASA
Do you mean Dennis Bushnell, who works for NASA?

NASA have spent billions of dollars on R and D.
Since they employ Bushnell specifically in R and D,
and given that he is a senior position in one of their most prestigious research establishments,
I must conclude that he is one of the best people in the world at the job.

He gives his title as Chief Scientist.
Does that mean that he runs the place, or that he is one of a number of chief scientists at Langley.
Even if it is the latter, he must be brilliant.

I accept that he believes that LENR is "Real".
Those terms seem unscientific to me.
It is surprising that someone of his standing would use such words,
but that is definitely what he has said.

But how much have NASA spent on LENR research?
Very little I think.
Why not?
If it works as a technology it is worth many Billions of Dollars per year.

I remember someone saying that NASA patented something to do with LENR.
What was that?

[Billy T]

The House passed a $17.6 billion NASA 2013 budget Thursday. Can you find even a dime in it for LENR?

I admit that NASA cannot control every thing some of its employees do, including unauthorized spending of NASA funds, but if nothing is in the budget then, LEHR is NOT a NASA project.