Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (cold fusion)

[kwhilborn]

@ Billvon,
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/05/ha...ration-at-mit/

@ Kremmen,

Medicine shows eventually started peddling medicine, and are now some of the richest corporations in the world. All the evidence I have shown in the last few months have avoided Ross and focused on the major corporations involved, however Rossi coming out of hiding after a year is interesting. Especially since he has always demonstrated what he says he would, and has never backed away from a public demonstration with lots of senior academics present, and Bologna university is backing him unconditionally now.

The ecat demonstrated for 1 year was not stable, and the longest running demonstration was 18 hours. Andrea Rossi is now claiming the ecat can run stable at over 1000 degrees and has been running for months straight.

I don't think Andrea Rossi deserves that much "hate" as he did bring forth the tech to the world in a very public manner even if it was not yet perfected. It allowed many other entities to check it out such as NASA, Toyota, Mitsubishi, NI, Siemens, etc...

Andrea Rossi can command a salary above 100K annually, so if he was perpetrating a fraud he would have lost over $600 000 in wages by now plus the money he has invested. If this was a global scam as some suggest then he would likely be jailed for a lengthy term. It does not make sense and does not fit the common scam scenarios where scammers use other peoples money and not their own.

Andrea Rossi is claiming that there is a 140 page technical report with third party testing. The home units has a waiting list of over 10000. Apparently the certification processors are adamant about a technician changing the fuel when necessary, even though the hydrogen is stored in a hydride instead of a canister. Maybe the 1000 degree heat has something to do with it?

Anyways.. He has not lied about any claims in the past. The patents apparently do not seem to be flowing though as the patent offices have deemed much of this impossible.

If he says he is running his ecat stable at 1000 degrees then that is what we will witness next month. He has never lied about any claims, and challenge anyone to show otherwise.

Forbes magazine has a decent update verifying where we stand with LENR. Forbes believes in LENR... do you?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibb...fusion-market/

[Captain Kremmen]

If LENR is real then it is simple to prove.

Take the original F and P experiment.
Redo it, excluding Helium from the apparatus.
Make sure that you can prove that there is no Helium contamination
If any Helium is detectable after electrolysis of D2O using a Palladium cathode, the process must involve nuclear reactions.

If your experiment can be duplicated, and always has the same result, you have proved that there is an LENR.

[kwhilborn]

@ Captain Kremmen,

If LENR is real then it is simple to prove.

Take the original F and P experiment.
Redo it, excluding Helium from the apparatus.
Make sure that you can prove that there is no Helium contamination
If any Helium is detectable after electrolysis of D2O using a Palladium cathode, the process must involve nuclear reactions.

If your experiment can be duplicated, and always has the same result, you have proved that there is an LENR.,

I thought you were aware that the LENR involved was discovered as a byproduct of attempting fusion, although fusion does not occur.

People still call it cold fusion for the sake of the "cold fusion conferences" as an example

http://www.iccf17.org/sub04_04.php

If you look at the speakers they are at the forefront of the LENR brigade including
one of the first speakers is Peter Hagelstein a professor at MIT whom Billvon plans on meeting
his next trip there so he can witness LENR firsthand.

@ Billvon,
This is who you need to meet with on your next trip to M.I.T.

Peter Hagelstein - got his PhD from MIT in 1981, and won a Hertz Foundation award for best dissertation. He developed relativistic atomic physics and x-ray laser simulation codes in connection with his PhD research, and continued their development subsequently in connection with ongoing x-ray laser programs at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. He was a co-inventor of the x-ray laser, and was recognized for this work with the US Department of Energy Lawrence Prize in National Defense in 1984. Hagelstein joined the EE&CS Faculty at MIT in 1986, and pursued research on x-ray lasers, quantum optics, numerical simulation, thermal to electric conversion, and condensed matter nuclear science. He was a recipient of the 1990 APS Award for Excellence in Plasma Research in connection with the development of the laboratory x-ray laser. He was a co-chair of the 10th International Conference on Cold Fusion, and helped put together the technical document for he 2004 DoE Review of Cold Fusion. Hagelstein was awarded the 2004 Preparata Medal of the ISCMNS for contributions to condensed matter nuclear science. In recent years he has worked with Irfan Chaudhary on the fractionation and lattice-nuclear coupling in connection with modeling excess heat in the Fleischmann-Pons experiment.

So "cold fusion" is not an accurate term. James R actually changed the name of this thread to reflect that, although cold fusion is still in the title.

However... ( bring you up to speed )
LENR has been confirmed.... by many including...

The CERN LENR presentation showed us Mitsubishi was getting its LENR experiments confirmed by rival company Toyota.
http://indico.cern.ch/getFile.py/acc...&confId=177379

We know NASA is funding LENR research and Dennis Bushnell, Chief Scientist, NASA Langley Research Center says LENR is real here
http://futureinnovation.larc.nasa.go...reactions.html

We also know Zawodny came out with ANOTHER video long after the first video was shot down as it seemed t support Andrea Rossi which they had not tested fully or confirmed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42hrC...layer_embedded

the above video is not the controversial one here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxeKe...eature=related
(both videos can also be found on NASA websites)

Siemens has not publicly denied being involved in the electrical aspects of Andrea Rossis project, and he claims they are involved. Siemens has admitted Andrea Rossi is a customer.
Siemens made a public offer to buy back its stock in June 2012.

National Instruments was involved with Andrea Rossi and has now gotten heavily into LENR.
Here is a pdf of a Nationa Instruments conference where some big LENR names are

http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/20...genda-2012.pdf
with big names like

• Dr.Andrea Aparo, Senior Advisor R&D, Ansaldo Energia Spa
• Dr.Akito Takahashi, Professor Emeritus, Osaka University, Senior Advisor, Technova Inc., Japan
• Dr.Michael McKubre,Energy Research Center, SRI International, USA
• Dr.Robert Duncan, Vice-*‐Chancellor for Research, University of Missouri, USA
• Mr.Robert E. Godes, President and Chief Technology Officer, Brillouin Energy Corp., USA

National Instruments also put out a statement.
A statement from John Pasquarette, Vice President of Corporate Marketing and eBusiness, National Instruments:

There are thousands of researchers and engineers in the world trying to solve alternative energy challenges and National Instruments provides tools to many of these scientists. One example is the Leonardo Corporation (A.K.A. ANDREA ROSSI) who intends to use NI tools for various applications. Specific details are still in development.

The mission of National Instruments is to equip engineers and scientists with tools that accelerate productivity, innovation, and discovery.

https://decibel.ni.com/content/docs/DOC-22977 (national instruments)

@ Captain Kremmen,
So we have major corporations all over the world competing for a front row seat with LENR and you have suggested that if I recreated the original Pons Fleischmann experiment, the one that was not replicable by hundreds of scientists in the months following the 1989 release and I managed to produce Helium the world would take notice.

There are many top scientists and Universities saying LENR is true now so I doubt my opinion would make an iota of difference.

NASA Langley
NASA Glenn
NASA Marshall Space Flight
Naval Research Laboratory
Navy SPAWAR
MIT
Toyota
Ames Research Center
National Instruments
SRI Intl.
Energetics Inc.
University Milan
University Illinois
University Missouri
University Purdue
University Bologna
University Palermo
Italian ENEA
USA DARPA
Mitsubishi Heavy Industries
University Kobe
Rowan University
U.S. DIA
etc. etc. etc…
Here is a more complete list of corporations and Universities that have acknowledged LENR exists.
http://www.slideshare.net/fullscreen/tylervan/lenr/2
The blue links in above slideshow are clickable.

[Billy T]

...
National Instruments also put out a statement.
A statement from John Pasquarette, Vice President of Corporate Marketing and eBusiness, National Instruments:
"... There are thousands of researchers and engineers in the world trying to solve alternative energy challenges and National Instruments provides tools to many of these scientists. One example is the Leonardo Corporation (A.K.A. ANDREA ROSSI) who intends to use NI tools for various applications. ... The mission of National Instruments is to equip engineers and scientists with tools that accelerate productivity, innovation, and discovery. ..." ...

But NI supplying some instruments is not nearly as strong a proof / endorsement as TtT (Toni the Taylor) has made by supplying the very pants Rossi wears when he gives speeches!

BTW TtT´s noble, moral, mission is to uphold dignity and prevent public nudity.

[Captain Kremmen]

There are many top scientists and Universities saying LENR is true now so I doubt my opinion would make an iota of difference.

NASA Langley
NASA Glenn
NASA Marshall Space Flight
Naval Research Laboratory
Navy SPAWAR
MIT
Toyota
Ames Research Center
National Instruments
SRI Intl.
Energetics Inc.
University Milan
University Illinois
University Missouri
University Purdue
University Bologna
University Palermo
Italian ENEA
USA DARPA
Mitsubishi Heavy Industries
University Kobe
Rowan University
U.S. DIA

That's a long list.
Take one at Random.
National Instruments.
When have they said that "LENR is true"?

[Captain Kremmen]

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[kwhilborn]

@ captain kremmen,
Why are you posting boring spam and quoting someone not in this thread?

Does the idea of unlimited free energy bore you?

Captain Kremmen -
That's a long list.
Take one at Random.
National Instruments.
When have they said that "LENR is true"?

You asked about National Instruments at random... Here is Francesco Celani of the Italian National Institute of Nuclear Physics has been presenting a Nickel-Hydrogen based LENR reactor at the National Instruments NIWeek in Austin Texas. New Energy Times today reported on Celani’s process which involves preloading a nickel wire with hydrogen for up to three days. Celani brought a preloaded wire to the NIWeek convention center to demonstrate his device.

Francesco Celani is not part of Andrea Rossi team. This is an entirely different device working on the same principle you are making fun of.



This is how he claims it works...
http://www.22passi.it/downloads/PresICCF17_NewA3A.pdf

If people are not interested enough to look at the evidence linked then they don't deserve to comment here imo.

@ Captain Kremmen,

Captain Kremmen -
That's a long list.
Take one at Random.
National Instruments.
When have they said that "LENR is true"?

You picked National instruments from that list and you asked to see where they have admitted LENR is real. When i say they I mean agents of the company.

Here is National Instruments outlining their belief and interest in the "anomalous heat" (That is their term for LENR). This following link directly answers your question.

http://www.22passi.it/downloads/eu_b...2_concezzi.pdf

That is National Instruments outlining their "MASTER PLAN" (that's the term they used) regarding LENR.


@ Captain Kremmen,
So I answered your one random name from list question fully. I showed they have a "Master Plan" concerning LENR that involves meeting the 10 top researchers in the field. I have shown that Francesco Celani is demonstrating a operational Nickel/Hydrogen/Carbon excess heat mechanism at their NIWEEK (National Instruments Week) conference currently running in Texas.

I left names off that list as Well such as Boeing. We know Nasa and Boeing are working on a LENR fueled airplane concept. I showed that many posts ago.

It seems like people visiting here do not look at the vast amounts of support and LENR devices available worldwide. Even high school students have put out a second generation LENR device. Google Athanor or click
http://www.usmessageboard.com/scienc...nr-device.html

If anybody has been following this thread and they still are not excited enough to research on their own, or cannot see the validity of LENR despite all the crazy amount of evidence I have shown then they are either illiterate or a moron. LENR is NOT in question.

Review my last 10 posts and there is 1000X more evidence available supporting LENR than there was when this thread started. If people are too lazy/ignorant to feel some excitement about this here then something is wrong. We are talking about replacing/modifying 600 million smog producing cars/trucks in the next 8 years. The ecat runs at over 1000 degrees Celsius, electricity from it is simple. Seriously, What is wrong with you people? Do links not work on your computers? In the world of science I would think this would be the equivalent of an airplane crashing into a building. We have found "abundant Green Energy" (NASA TERM FOR IT).

This thread has been around a few years and nobody has admitted LENR is real yet. Too Proud or too old to alter your education?

[billvon]

Review my last 10 posts and there is 1000X more evidence available supporting LENR than there was when this thread started.

So you figure every time a demo fails it increases the evidence by a factor of 10?

By those standards, there will be a billion times more evidence supporting LENR after another half dozen failures!

We are talking about replacing/modifying 600 million smog producing cars/trucks in the next 8 years.

No, you're fantasizing about that - and you have been for years. It's a nice fantasy. It does not have a basis in reality.

We have found "abundant Green Energy" (NASA TERM FOR IT).

So have I. But mine actually works. I can show you the numbers.

[Captain Kremmen]

Here is National Instruments outlining their belief and interest in the "anomalous heat" (That is their term for LENR). This following link directly answers your question.

http://www.22passi.it/downloads/eu_b...2_concezzi.pdf

Interest yes. Belief No.
They explain why they are interested.
Because they want to sell measuring equipment.
Just like people who sell mustard are interested in hot dogs.
They don't believe in it at all.
They deliberately distance themselves from any judgment.
They say that in the notes you linked to.

Tell me this.
How much of National Instrument's money is going into original research in this field?
Or are they, as I suspect, only selling programs, selling expertise, and selling equiptment.

[kwhilborn]

Yet Celani is running a LENR device today at National Instruments.

National instruments says "Anomalous heat is present or their measurements are flawed". We are talking about the flaws in over 180 replications of these experiments worldwide by University professors and large corporations. Something tells me the room for error in measurement is behind us.

and the LENR reactor designed, built, tested and patented by a group of professors and students at the Leopoldo Pirelli High School in Rome is also fake,

as is the one at M.I.T. which Billvon is going to see is also a fake,

as is the other dozen in existence including Andrea Rossi's

I suppose you think all these devices are faked?

July 12, 2012 - "The US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) is reporting in its Fiscal Year 2013 Budget Submission that it has been carrying out research with the Italian Department of Energy. On page 51 of the document there is a 2011-2013 budget line of $32 million for, “Fundamentals of Nanoscale and Emergent Effects and Engineered Devices”. One of the accomplishments in this section for 2011 is: Continued quantification of material parameters that control degree of increase in excess heat generation and life expectancy of power cells in collaboration with the Italian Department of Energy. Establish scalability and scaling parameters in excess heat generation processes in collaboration with the Italian Department of Energy."

Could this be LENR they are discussing?

[Captain Kremmen]

He's running one at National Instruments?
Give me the link to that please.

[kwhilborn]

@ Captain Kremmen,
I provided a photo of Francesco Celani posing in front of his LENR device 2 posts ago. Notice all the GREEN SIGNS that say NIWEEK on them. That is what National Instruments is calling this conference NIWEEK = National Instruments Week.

Here is a PDF of the event GOING ON TODAY...
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/20...genda-2012.pdf

NOTE: this above link has been posted before... sigh

more complete information here about conference.

http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2012/...l-instruments/

Note: New Energy Times is run by Steven Krivit the most vocal opponent of Andrea Rossi.

Francesco Celani, a physicist with the Italian National Institute of Nuclear Physics in Frascati, Italy, brought a LENR device he developed that uses hydrogen gas and a specially treated nickel wire. The concept was pioneered by another Italian, Francesco Piantelli, in the 1990s. Celani’s demonstration shows that the nickel-hydrogen gas system is robust and predicable and that it demonstrates the leading edge of LENR research. New Energy Times first reported Piantelli’s nickel-hydrogen gas LENR research in 2008.

[Captain Kremmen]

Right.
So not at National Instruments, but at at a conference.

[kwhilborn]

National Instruments rented from August 6-9, 2012 the entire Austin Convention Center (not a booth), Austin, Texas. So I guess it is only on their rented property.

Maybe this demonstration of LENR will be more convincing at the annual cold fusion conference in Korea when Francesco Celani demonstrates it there.

I doubt it. I maintain my original position that anyone doubting LENR is Too stubborn to update their education or illiterate.

Francesco Celani is a competitor against Andrea Rossi. So according to sciforums they are both frauds, along with a dozen others.

[Billy T]

... I maintain my original position that anyone doubting LENR is Too stubborn to update their education ...

I´m guilty / stubborn as you charge. I.e. I persist in thinking that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

As an example of "extraordinary evidence" for the Ecat would be a box with only transparent tube supplying cold water to the box with steam coming out the top for days.

I.e. no continuous power energy input from the local electric company; but if the box can make its own power from its generated thermal energy and the cold water input as the "cold sink" for a thermal engine that is OK. - I don´t care how complex or how much energy is recirculated inside the box.

I just want to see it make steam from ONLY a cold water source for several days at least.

[billvon]

Francesco Celani is a competitor against Andrea Rossi. So according to sciforums they are both frauds, along with a dozen others.

Who said they were frauds? They just haven't demonstrated their technology. The only time that becomes fraud is when they take money from people based on their unsubstantiated claims.

[Captain Kremmen]

Who said they were frauds? They just haven't demonstrated their technology. The only time that becomes fraud is when they take money from people based on their unsubstantiated claims.

You've just stolen the words from my mouth.

Francesco Celani's and other's paper, which Kwhillborn, linked to below, is a scientific paper.
No secret ingredients, no talk of snakes, no believing involved.
see http://www.22passi.it/downloads/PresICCF17_NewA3A.pdf

These metals and alloys, combined with nascent Hydrogen or Deuterium, do seem to behave in a strange way,
and merit scientific examination. Their study may lead to things of use.
Unfortunately, some charlatans have made their study fringe science.

If excess energy is being produced, that needs to be proven.
That's what science is about.
Anything else is a religion.

[Billy T]

...
These metals and alloys, combined with nascent Hydrogen or Deuterium, do seem to behave in a strange way,
and merit scientific examination. Their study may lead to things of use. ...

My best bet is that any energy release is somehow a release of "surface energy" Which despite the name may (I think) can be present internally too. I posted this idea many months ago.

Let me give a simple example that most already know: If you have a glass of water, you have a surface and interface between the H2O and the air. The H2O molecules at the surface are under a different set of forces than those in the interior - only being pulled down by mutual attraction between H2O molecules. To get one of these surface H2O molecules to break free (evaporate) requires energy to do work against the downward surface forces. I.e. there is energy stored in the existence of any surface interface.

If you have a solid and split it, you will be pulling apart molecules that attract each other - using energy to do that. Part of the work you do is now stored in the new surface you you have just made.

Back to the glass of water: If you put some "detergent" on the water surface, you reduce the surface tension - you are changing the interface and the molecular forces that it had. I suspect you are reducing the surface energy. It goes somewhere - tiny amount of heat produced, I think. What if you could modify in 3D ALL of the forces between the atoms of a solid metal? Could that not also reduce some stored energy - also make some heat? Well some metals do allow hydrogen to "dissolve" in them - take positions between the atoms of metal. They surely are changing the forces between the metal atoms that existed before the protons (hydrogen with its electron now free) were added.

I don´t pretend to know details - just think this changing of internal forces is somehow what makes the observed release of heat.

Back on the splitting of metals - When you grind a solid into fine dust you enormously increase the stored surface energy. Part of the work done in grinding is now stored in the new surface. Some of the heat of LENR may be the release of this stored grinding energy. I.e. a "solid" mass of tiny collections of 10,000 atoms chunks are not without a lot of "internal" surface. Perhaps as these internal surfaces get a mono-layer of hydrogen on them (a 2D liquid) there is energy release, just as when the detergent was added to the water/ air interface.

If any or all of these "it´s surface energy release" ideas are valid, then after a time, it will not be possible to further change the stored surface energy - I.e. that is why I want to see LENR´s heat go on, and on, and on, etc. instead of terminate as it seems to do in reports I have read.

I have yet to see any well documented release of LENR heat´s total energy that is MORE than was used to prepare (often by many hours of very fine grounding) the metals used in the LENR device.
I.e. there may a net loss of high quality energy when a full accounting is made. I.e. LENR may be just a complex way to convert high quality energy into low quality heat energy.

[kwhilborn]

@ Billy T,
http://www.22passi.it/downloads/PresICCF17_NewA3A.pdf

(I thought you'd find interest in the above PDF).

Glad to see LENR is generating some discussion here. I have shown lots of people demonstrating working LENR devices here and Francesco Celani was the latest.

Much like the Tesla/Marconi or Bell/Grey patent races someone had better make a move soon.

- Despite the fact Andrea Rossi has not been able to demonstrate his product as stable, he did have many open demonstrations for which all who wished to attend could attend and see this device. I think that much we can all agree on.
- We also know that the longest demonstration recorded was only 18 hours long.
- Andrea Rossi did NOT ask for any investment at that time.

Evertime ANDREA ROSSI SAID HE WOULD DO SOMETHING HE DID IT in regards to inviting and demonstrations.

- Stability problems made Andrea Rossi feel he revealed his product too soon and quit doing public demos. Since then his outside contact has been hard to decipher.

Now Andrea Rossi is claiming he will present his papers (I'm guessing product as well) in September. He is claiming....
-The ecat can run stable now for many months
-That the ecat runs stable between 1000 and 1200 degrees Celsius.
-That he has had several third party verifications.
-There is a 140 page report.

Obviously I cannot say what is in store, but these next months should be very interesting. At that temperature you could easily generate electricity inside a car/truck/boat/building.. I'd sell your sailboats.

[Billy T]

@ Billy T, ... He is claiming... -The ecat can run stable now for many months....

I´m impressed IF that is with no connection to power lines. If not, why not apply its "excess heat" to at least a thermo-electic generator (or a more efficient generator) to make electric input it needs and then cut the power line connections.

BTW I read that link before, not with great care, but much more than just a quick skim - It mainly speaks of their better process for forming the micro structures all eCats seem to need (that makes me think they are using surface energy) and did not give any indications that when the total energy budget is accounted (including energy cost in making their "micro structure" / huge internal surfaces) there is positive net energy produced.