Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (cold fusion)

[Captain Kremmen]

Whats that specific word? Indicated? Like the country? My best shot at humor.

No, what is cold fusion? Is that the thing like those under water fan looking things that are suppose produce energy?

OK, lets get serious.
Fusion, put simply, it is the fusing of two elements to produce a third.
In Rossi's case he is trying to fuse Hydrogen and Nickel to produce Copper.

In Chemistry, the number of Protons in an Atom is called the Atomic Number.
It's simple Arithmetic. Hydrogen (Atomic Number 1) fused with Nickel (Atomic Number 28) gives Copper (Atomic Number 29).
A by-product of the fusion is a large amount of energy.
Trouble is, that getting elements to fuse also uses a lot of energy.
It isn't hard to do on a small scale. Not for a nuclear scientist anyway.

Using a lot of energy to make the elements fuse is called fusion.
Getting them to fuse without a lot of input energy is called "Cold Fusion".
In Cold fusion, if it exists, there is an excess of output energy over input energy.
If output energy is more than 2x input energy, and the materials are cheap, Bonanza!
Some of the output energy can be put back into the system, so that all you are using up is the cheap materials.
And in this case you are turning Nickel into the more expensive metal Copper.

One reason why many scientists are sitting on the fence,
is that while no-one has yet successfully demonstrated Cold Fusion, there are a lot of strange things happening.
For example, another scientist, who is also looking at the Nickel Hydrogen fusion method, keeps getting mixed results.
The energy is sometimes reluctant to be produced, sometimes spikes, and sometimes blows up the equipment!
That there is something happening is not in doubt.
What is in doubt is what is happening, and whether excess energy is in fact produced.

Another reason that people are reluctant to shout "Scam",
is that some of the experiments are taking place at the University of Bologna,
a very prestigious educational establishment, possibly the world's oldest University.

There are undoubtedly numerous Governmental bodies looking at this reaction.
And whether or not this particular project proves successful,
the inquiry into what happens to Hydrogen absorbed into metals will continue.
If it is not fusion, it may still be something of great potential value.

[kwhilborn]

Awesome Kremmen, I'd add in that they are using catalyst(s) to give the Nickel powder more edges and allow the hydrogen more opportunities to fuse.

Even though Rossi has said he is not as interested in making sceptics believe as he is in producing the technology, there has been no shortage of people to yell "scam".

How many of the people yelling scam were from 6 months ago, and how many are from today. There have been many conversions during this time.


Sorry Rhaedas (missed your earlier comment until now),

I've seen videos of it in operation. The presentation makes it look like you're getting enough energy out to boil water while not using a lot in. But the usage of hydrogen is brushed over...hydrogen can heat water too. I wonder how much hydrogen is used in an hour, and if the cost of its production is weighed into consideration on what the actual output is.

That was also my biggest concerns. I was thinking maybe the Hydrogen is burning away in there causing the water to boil. Especially when I saw 2 huge tanks in the original january demo.

This idea has been put to rest for me in several ways.
- The independent examiners of these tests did watch the weight of hydrogen and the quantity used was measured carefully.

- In this new video of the (new) e-cat running they show the intake pipe for the hydrogen but it is not connected to anything. They say the machine has already been pressurized with hydrogen, and that will be enough to sustain their test.

Below is a new link to all the videos recently released. You can see them talk about the hydrogen intake at 2:20 of the clip, and they say the unit was charged with 3 grams of hydrogen.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/09/swe...with-self.html
http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/09/swe...with-self.html

[Yazata]

Another reason that people are reluctant to shout "Scam",
is that some of the experiments are taking place at the University of Bologna,
a very prestigious educational establishment, possibly the world's oldest University.

I'm not convinced of that. Is there any reference to any kind of institutional involvement on any University of Bologna webpage? Or does the news come from a U-tube video or someplace?

There are undoubtedly numerous Governmental bodies looking at this reaction.

If so, those governments don't seem to be talking about it.

Yesterday I did a search, reported in an earlier post in this thread, that didn't generate a single hit on any US government webpage. (And only one on an American .edu university site.) A few weeks ago, Sciforums had an excited thread about how NASA had endorsed Rossi and his discoveries. Unfortunately, no NASA webpage bothered to mention the breathtaking news.

I've seen NASA press conferences and announcements made at scientific meetings (about extrasolar planet discoveries in those cases) and the rooms were totally packed, standing-room only. The announcements were all over the world's scientific media within hours. Astronomers around the world were excitedly commenting on their university and institutional websites.

Given the implications of what (purportedly) is limitless free energy, one would expect the excitement to be exponentially higher. If this development were real, then it would transform the whole world, bigtime. But apart from an endless supply of crankish websites, including Sciforums unfortunately, there's virtually nothing with any tangible substance. Real governments, real universities, real research laboratories and real professional organizations remain silent.

So at this point, I find myself dismissing all of this 'Andrea Rossi' stuff as internet bullshit. It simply doesn't present the kind of signature that one observes with real scientific discoveries.

I'd love to be proven wrong though.

[kwhilborn]

Yes! If it works it's a game changer for sure.

I believe Levi and others from the University of Bologna have submitted papers on the reaction, but most are probably in need of translation.

I know you just said you did not want Youtube type proof, however I am linking a youtube video which shows how the University of Bologna became involved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_Ks5ULzPnY

It is a interview with Giuseppe Levi Physics professor at University of Bologna , and also Andrea Rossi.

Now if you look up Andrea Rossi on wikipedia you can find the following about the tests the e-cat has been put through. Most of the tests to date have been at the University of Bologna.

I will quote wikipedia here
from...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_...(entrepreneur)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_...(entrepreneur)

Demonstrations and investigations

Bologna, January 2011 demonstration
Held in Bologna, January 14, 2011, the demonstration was monitored by independent scientific representatives of the University of Bologna, including a researcher in physics, Giuseppe Levi. Levi concluded that the power and energy produced was "impressive," and that the Energy Catalyzer might be working as a new type of energy source. Ny Teknik, a Swedish technology magazine, reported that editorial staff were polled on their reaction to this report. "The result: two-thirds do not believe in it." Of this demonstration, Discovery Channel analyst Benjamin Radford wrote that "If this all sounds fishy to you, it should," and that "In many ways cold fusion is similar to perpetual motion machines. The principles defy the laws of physics, but that doesn’t stop people from periodically claiming to have invented or discovered one."
Nonetheless, Levi in an interview with Ny Teknik, stated “What has impressed me, and what sets this work apart from everything I’ve ever seen, is that we have 10 kW of measured energy output, and this output is completely repeatable. But what I want to do now is an experiment with continuous operation for at least one or more days. Since there are very specific limits on how much energy you can generate from a given amount of mass, I can thus rule out a chemical reaction as the energy source.”
Bologna, February 2011 test
Another test, lasting 18 hours, was performed in Bologna, from February 10–11, 2011, by Levi and Rossi, but was not conducted in public.
According to Levi, the process was 'ignited' by 1,250 watts for five to ten minutes, and power was then reduced to 80 watts (for the control electronics). Cooling was supplied by tap water and flow volume was monitored. As reported by Ny Teknik, "Initially, the temperature of the inflowing water was seven degrees Celsius and for a while the outlet temperature was 40 degrees Celsius. A flow rate of about one liter per second, equates to a peak power of 130 kilowatts. The power output was later stabilized at 15 to 20 kilowatts." Levi calculated consumption of hydrogen at 0.4 grams. “In my opinion, all chemical sources are now excluded,” he told Ny Teknik.
Bologna, March 2011 tests
On March 29, 2011 two Swedish physicists, Hanno Essén, associate professor of theoretical physics and a lecturer at the Swedish Royal Institute of Technology and former chairman of the Swedish Skeptics Society and Sven Kullander, Professor Emeritus at Uppsala University and also chairman of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences’ Energy Committee, participated as observers in a test of a smaller version of the Energy Catalyzer. The test ran for six hours, power output was estimated at 4.4 kW, and total energy produced at about 25 kWh. Essen and Kullander reported, "Any chemical process should be ruled out for producing 25 kWh from whatever is in a 50 cubic centimeter container. The only alternative explanation is that there is some kind of a nuclear process that gives rise to the measured energy production." In a later conversation, a few months after the test, Essén stated "I want to wait for more facts. The facts I know add up to make this interesting and worth pursuing, but I am still very uncertain about this."
They were given samples of nickel powder, some unused and some that Rossi reported as used for 2.5 months; analysis showed the unused powder was pure nickel while the used powder contained 10 percent copper and 11 percent iron, although iron production is not mentioned anywhere in the patent.[20] In their test report, Essen and Kullander cautioned, "Since we do not have access to the internal design of the central fuel container and no information on the external lead shielding and the cooling water system we can only make very general comments."
Bologna, April 2011 tests
On April 19[21] and April 28 two more demonstrations were held. The first of them was also covered by the Italian 24-hour all-news State-owned television channel Rai News. This time a Ny Teknik author attended and tested for some previously noted possibilities of fraud. He therefore calibrated the ammeter, measured the water flow by weighing and calibrated the temperature-sensor probe to confirm that all water is converted to steam. The measurements showed a net power of between 2.3 and 2.6 kilowatts. The input power was 300 watts.

NOTE: As was the fight between Marconi/Tesla who invented the Radio. As was the fight between Edison and Swann who invented the light bulb. Alexander graham Bell only managed to get credit for the telephone because he got his patent in first. There were several others claiming they invented it first. -------

This seems to be what we are witnessing here.
One of the factors that makes me believe this technology is real is that I have given it enough credibility to allow myself to research what has been transpiring. Andrea Rossi is not alone in this endeavor.

Much ignored as the Rossi device seems to have more urgency behind it, and with better energy gains is the Piantelli devices.

A legal battle over patents on cold fusion technology could be developing in Italy. One patent for cold fusion technology has already been granted for Andrea Rossi’s energy catalyzer or e-cat device in May.
This blog reports that three more patents for a similar nickel-hydrogen Cold Fusion device have been filed by Francesco Piantelli. Piantelli who did cold fusion research with Rossi’s partner Sergio Focardi has formed his own company NichEnergy to develop a similar low energy nuclear reactor.

It actually seems like Focardi was very instrumental in bringing this technology into the present.

Another point; the reaction chamber design itself is similar to other designs that have been used for LENR experiments.

It is hard to imagine that Francesco Piantelli, and Andrea Rossi are both racing to beat each other at a fraud.

Even if something were to happen to everyone involved as some sort of conspiracy theorists daydream, then the world still has patents on file, and has the alleged knowledge that enriched nickel with a catalyst and Hydrogen pressure combined with heat is the supposed mixture. A levy of chemists will hit their garages with the combinations involved. It looks like it is time for this to happen.

[adoucette]

To show this actually works all Rossi had to do was use some of the output energy to generate electricity to keep the device working and then after the device was started all external inputs could have been removed.

Thermal electric generators are easily available to do this:

http://www.marlow.com/power-generators/?cid=1

Simple and obvious solution that was not used.

Why?

Arthur

[Captain Kremmen]

I'm not convinced of that. Is there any reference to any kind of institutional involvement on any University of Bologna webpage? Or does the news come from a U-tube video or someplace?

Universities make money by allowing their facilities to be used by businesses.

Even though the University would not be culpable if it turned out to be a scam, it would damage their reputation to have allowed it to be operated from their premises.
They must be confident that at the worst it is honest research, or I think Rossi would be out on his ear.

[kwhilborn]

Adoucette,

Simple and obvious solution that was not used.

Why?

These short videos are the first real news about the e-cat in months. Andrea Rossi has always claimed he is not interested in ending scepticism more than he is in getting them produced.

The one video they do show of it running self sustained is with the device unplugged and it manages to only drop 10 degrees in 35 minutes, without electricity.

Yes! I would be happier if they had one running 24/7 with all inputs and outputs monitored for months on end, but this video is more than we were expecting as we were told we would not see anything until the unveiling at the end of October.

The devices fluctuate in the power they output so you would also need some pretty sophisticated voltage regulation with your generator. I suppose if Andrea Rossi and his team thought it was necessary for people to believe in his product they would have pulled out a few more stops.

If I was Andrea Rossi and had a real working cold fusion machine I also would not care what people thought, as long as the idea was moving forward at a progressive rate.

At the same time he has let top ranked scientists examine his e-cat, and has also has claimed agencies like NASA are helping him with testing and upcoming credibility areas.

Here is a quote pertaining to this,

An article in Ecatreport recently revealed that there was a meeting between representatives of NASA, Ampenergo and Defkalion GT on July 14th. Andrea Rossi was asked if he could provide information about this meeting on his site and today provided the following response:

Andrea Rossi Stated ---

I am not authorized to give this information.
I can only say that there is really to learn.
I met extremely high level scientists. I have been really surprised and honoured to discover that they have got independently throughly information about this technology. All I can say, so far, is that we will work together.

I think it looks promising that we will get a better demonstration in October, and it will be self sustaining with electricity generation and regulators.

Rossi initially issued an open invite to the demonstration, but was overwhelmed with people wishing to attend so has limited his guest list to top scientists and potential customers. He says the October demonstrations of the plant running will be broadcast for public display.

There does need to be some secrecy involved on his part as some patent offices are claiming LENR are impossible, so there is no legal protection (or not as much).

It will be fun to see

[universaldistress]

That's the thing. The fact that there have been so many video demonstrations, and that the people producing these videos must know that they don't actually demonstrate anything significant, makes this whole thing reek of an underlying scam, part of which is to drag this out in the media for as long as possible.

So how are they trying to make money from this? Is it illegal to create a hoax for profit? "Exit through the gift shop" dances with this. Is this the next level?

[universaldistress]

If they made a movie they could make some money.

[Rav]

So how are they trying to make money from this? Is it illegal to create a hoax for profit? "Exit through the gift shop" dances with this. Is this the next level?

I can't speak with any kind of authority about the legalities involved. But we do know that Rossi has already received money in exchange for a portion of the royalties on all sales (which was an undisclosed sum by the way).

Perhaps he's planning to retire in a country that doesn't have an extradition treaty with any of the countries he's trying to do business in. Who knows. It might be a challenge to figure out all the angles in advance, but I'm betting that they're definitely there.

[universaldistress]

Yeah, cool. I agree, bet there are many ways for a clever fraudster to capitalise on it.

Oh, and thanks for the link to that documentary site you posted (can't remember which thread), looks immense.

[Believe]

I'm extremely skeptical of it, but I hope it's real.

[kwhilborn]

@ Rav

I can't speak with any kind of authority about the legalities involved. But we do know that Rossi has already received money in exchange for a portion of the royalties on all sales (which was an undisclosed sum by the way).

All reports have indicated that Andrea Rossi has funded this himself (But if you have info or rumor then i'll change my stance. It wouldn't affect my belief if he has taken money at this point though, it does not look like a cheap thing to build.)

AmpEnergo, a US company, knows this too well and has already signed an investment agreement with Engineer Rossi, to process the royalties for sales of Energy Catalyzer products and licenses sold in America.

From what I have pieced together with the scarce news is that Andrea Rossi is funding a working 1MW plant to open in late October. Once it is proven to work the "investors" (AmpEnergo has ties to the U.S. D.O.D., and D.O.E.) will carry the product to market.

Once again,
This product is not just coming from one direction. There are other patents in existence for the same process by other people.

A legal battle over patents on cold fusion technology could be developing in Italy. One patent for cold fusion technology has already been granted for Andrea Rossi’s energy catalyzer or e-cat device in May.
This blog reports that three more patents for a similar nickel-hydrogen Cold Fusion device have been filed by Francesco Piantelli. Piantelli who did cold fusion research with Rossi’s partner Sergio Focardi has formed his own company NichEnergy to develop a similar low energy nuclear reactor.

If someone takes the time to research what is going on with this and look at all the accredited science pros who are supporting this (who have touched it and witnessed it), then it seems as if there can be no doubt it is for real.

[universaldistress]

If someone takes the time to research what is going on with this and look at all the accredited science pros who are supporting this (who have touched it and witnessed it), then it seems as if there can be no doubt it is for real.

Links please.

All you have done so far is blow hot air (or water if you like ) without anything more than a link to a possibly fraudulent video.

[Yazata]

I just did a search for "Andrea Rossi" on unibo.it websites and got 86 hits. But most of them didn't seem to refer to the individual referred to in this thread. ('Andrea Rossi' seems to be a fairly common Italian name.) As far as I could make out (the pages were in Italian) most were about business topics. So there seem to be several Andrea Rossi's associated with the University of Bologna.

Trying to narrow things down to this particular individual, I did a search for "Andrea Rossi" and 'fusione' on unibo.it webpages. The results total four hits.

That's a pretty anemic result for a technology that holds out the amazing promise of free energy. That's doubly so when it's University of Bologna involvement that's supposed to be underwriting the work's credibility.

If the University of Bologna thought that there was anything to this, I would expect them to devote a truly massive research effort to it, involving many hundreds scientists, engineers and technicians. Naturally, they would be planning on receiving a percentage of whatever the proceeds might ultimately be. (The equivalent of trillions of US dollars, probably.)

But that doesn't appear to be what we're seeing.

I'm guessing that Rossi managed to interest an individual University of Bologna professor who has cooperated with him as one of his personal research activities. But that's probably about as far as it goes.

Turning to NASA, here's all the NASA webpages that contain the name 'Andrea Rossi'. They total 39, apparently all of them observational reports by the same astronomer in Germany.

[kwhilborn]

Actually it's in reverse; The University of Bologna is supposed to be getting grants from Andrea Rossi to study these effects further. They are getting the reaction to happen, but what is actually happening inside these machines seems to baffle even Rossi. They are not exactly sure why it is reacting the way it does and Rossi is supposed to fund them to study it at the rate of 500 000 Euros per year.

Many people do not realize that Andrea Rossi is already rich by many standards. He is claiming he has invested all of his money in this endeavour, but had he not been involved could have lived very comfortably with no problem. He sold his last company for over 1 million Euros, and I am sure he probably saved a few pennies over the years as the C.E.O. Here is a link to that...
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energ...cle3123849.ece

So Andrea Rossi funding the university ...

Sorta backwards I guess.
anyways that information is told in a youtube video (not your fav source) at 5 minutes and 55 seconds into this clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9I_C...eature=related


There has been very little mainstream media reports involving this technology, and I'd say over 99% of the population have no idea what possibly lies in store next month (at least in my neighbourhood).

I am excited about the prospects because they look legitimate from what I have seen and read. I'd like to see the planet become green for my children to enjoy.

"Andrea Rossi" is a very very common name in Italy. It is like a "John Smith" in North America, and helps if you add words like e-cat, lenr, cold fusion, or even fraud into the mix. When i search for the wikipedia link for "andrea Rossi" I get 5 choices.. he is the "entrepreneur".

I do search the word fraud with his name often, as I am interested in hearing arguments against him. So far none seem overly convincing.

[Rav]

All reports have indicated that Andrea Rossi has funded this himself (But if you have info or rumor then i'll change my stance. It wouldn't affect my belief if he has taken money at this point though, it does not look like a cheap thing to build.)

I linked to the info in my post. It's the underlined blue text.

[kwhilborn]

Thanks Rav, sorry I missed that. I thought something must be up when Rossi dumped and distanced himself from Defkalion earlier in the summer. It must have been a move advised by Ampenergo.

I am very glad knowing Andrea Rossi has established residence in the U.S. since this technology came out, and that it is an American company taking it to town.

I am putting the link below for anyone else who missed it, and is interested.

http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energ...cle3179019.ece

I found this article very interesting and thank-you for providing the link Rav.

keep it up, I'm starved for more info on this thing.

Andrea Rossi sold his old company for over 1 million Euros (unrelated to e-cat) and probably had considerable savings from his time as C.E.O. , so he would not be considered a poor person by most peoples standards. That is one of the reasons I wonder about why so many people think he is trying to pull a scam. If he wanted to live on a beach in Hawaii and drink margaritas all day he already has the money to do that.

He did say he was doing all the funding for this himself, and he had said there was no plan to take money from investors.
The link above (kindly provided by Rav) shows he did take investment money recently.

Anybody wishing to learn about Andrea Rossis previous companies or their sales can read about it at this link.
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energ...cle3123849.ece
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energ...cle3123849.ece

P.S. If I was trying to scam people with something like this I'd be interested in fooling the oil companies and hope they offer me a billion dollars or so to change hobbies. I'd at least hope they would offer me money before they assassinated me.

I do think this technology is real now based on an interest in the subject and sound reasoning, and believe the technology will arrive no matter what happens within the next few months. Too many people have the Nickel/hydrogen/heat/catalyst idea to make it vanish.

[Captain Kremmen]

Mentally, I am setting myself up for disappointment this month.

I wouldn't be disappointed if the experiment was proven.
and I wouldn't be disappointed if the experiment was disproved.
I don't think either will happen,
and that is why I am going to be disappointed.

[kwhilborn]

I have not seen a response from the oil industry. This technology could take 600 million gas cars off the toad within 5 years. Current gas prices would make some new owners opt to drive their new cars into the lake.