Unnecessary Confrontations

Spiritualists and Materialists​

I still do not know what can be done to eliminate endless conflicts between materialists and spiritualists. But comments collected at several websites prompted me to compose a short on-line paper at:

http://pages.csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/theo_sci.html

It can probably be used to initiate an interesting discussion here. Please share this link with those who might be interested.

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Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia). A am also the author of a FREE ONLINE book entitled “Diary of a Former Communist: Thoughts, Feelings, Reality.”

http://csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/life/intro.html

It is a testimony based on a diary kept between 1946 and 2004 (in the USSR, Poland, France and the USA).

 

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I'll address this one, but before I do I want to make a few things known:

1) The thread title very misleading (to the point where I would declare it lying). The link is about atheists vs. theists which are very different than spiritualists and materialists.

2) I disagree with almost every single sentence in the linked page on an objective basis; however, it's not worth the effort picking it apart. Instead I am going to address the core questions it asks.

And now on to addressing the core questions from the link:

Q: Is it desirable to end such confrontations?
A: If you value truth more than how you feel then absolutely not. The confrontations should continue and theistic claims should be demonstrated for the non-truth that they are. This has the benefit of effectively marginalizing theism in society so we don't have theistically driven leaders making decisions to hurt people because of their theism.

Q: Is it possible to end them?
A: I suspect it is. If you provide everyone with strong education and healthy socio-economics for a very long time then theism naturally waynes and becomes unimportant to everyone.

 

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Theism and atheism are in conflict on principle.
Materialism and spiritualism are in conflict on principle.
These conflicts are a given, they are inherent because the stances are opposing eachother; these conflicts cannot be eliminated.


What might be changed is the way confrontations between theists and atheists, or spiritualists and materialists are carried out.
I imagine that if both sides became more assertive (as opposed to aggressive, passive, or passive-aggressive), then the confrontations would be over more quickly and the remaining exchanges more meaningful.

However, I also see no reason why theists/spiritualists would become more assertive; they are even doctrinally bound to be aggressive/controlling.

It is part of many theistic/spiritual doctrines to ridicule non-believers.

To ask the theists/spiritualists to not ridicule others is to ask them to give up on some of their doctrines.
This would be a limitation of the theists/spiritualists' freedoms and rights.
Surely they won't agree to that.

 

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why can't one be both materialistic and spiritual?

sure, there are people who only care about materialism and not spiritual or vice versa but that doesn't mean one can't appreciate both. you have to be materialistic to some extent to live in the physical world but it's probably not healthy to be overly materialistic or think that is all to life, then you miss out on other things which give it meaning.

 

Ludwig:

Enjoyed your treatise on science and sprituality. Guess I would also fit into your natural theist category. I believe that God exists spiritually and interacts (sometimes) with the material world. As I've been dwelling lately on a lot of theoretical physics, and have also suffered recent life losses, I find myself focusing on both. I am a sort of material and spiritual renegade - believing in both avenues simultaneously. In a prayer meeting last week, the term "Quantum Jesus" crossed my mind. This may be the final frontier that we are headed-for - and it is possible that spirituality and science are actually on separate, but converging paths. I am optimistic that this is the case, but as you have eloquently-said, we have a lot of confrontational issues to resolve. Thanks for contributing . . . you are fulfilling your life's 'purpose' (as we all hopefully are).

wlminex

 

quantum jesus? quantum buddha? quantum allah? quantum devil? lol.

you mean scientists are trying to figure out the universe and world we live in?? do they know it all? no, that is true. is there a lot that occurs which can't all be explained by science? yes, it seems so because life is very complicated.

i think the largest barrier between science and 'spirituality' is the fact we live in a physical world. science requires hard physical evidence mostly.

take for instance, the feeling of love or the issue of the idea of 'souls'. science has a hard time taking that seriously because there is no proof.

we can say that the feeling of 'love' among other experiences or states is a biochemical reaction but even if it is, that 'state' could be a form just as our physical bodies are a temporary construct and we acknowledge it's existence, perhaps the 'soul' is also a temporary contruct of our being that is ever changing or evolving depending on our experiences just as our physical bodies regenerate cell by cell, though our construct remains until our final death.

these are just examples of the limits of what science can prove or disprove right now. this is why there is a barrier at this present time.

another issue is that literalists tend to see the world only in limited physical scope as being cause and effect when there is much more going on underneath the surface of interactions with other living beings besides just the physical world. what someone thinks and feels will affect another and it creates a domino effect in the world. we all affect eachother in one way or another and it's not just a matter of 'cause and effect' being only a physical manipulation such as literally moving one object from one location to another.

there is so much subtle and overt that effects our lives and the world at large, for good or ill. we also create on many different levels, not just reacting and others react to what we create on a mental, emotional and physical level. 'spirituality' usually is an overall encompassing term to mean mental and emotional combined with either intent or passively.

 

I agree. An even better title would scientist vs theists.

I also do not agree with many quoted statements.

I do not know what will happen in the next thousand years, or so.

..........................................................................
Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia). A am also the author of a FREE ONLINE book entitled “Diary of a Former Communist: Thoughts, Feelings, Reality.”

http://csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/life/intro.html

It is a testimony based on a diary kept between 1946 and 2004 (in the USSR, Poland, France and the USA).

 

1) This are indeed very confusing, and totally unnecessary, words.

2) And yes, Lminex, we are all trying.

Good day to all.

..............................................

Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia). A am also the author of a FREE ONLINE book entitled “Diary of a Former Communist: Thoughts, Feelings, Reality.”

http://csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/life/intro.html

It is a testimony based on a diary kept between 1946 and 2004 (in the USSR, Poland, France and the USA).

 

it is not a professional paper..
it was designed to look like one.
here is where i made this observation:

a professional paper would not have personal opinion in it.

other than that..it was pretty good, it brought up some good points..

 

I think confrontation is good and necessary . Confront your fears is even better . Hiding from it will leave you out of the outcome . If the outcome is bad you got no one to blame but your self . Engage in life , Life is conflict , Lets hope we come to some conclusions in the process . With out questioning the way things are life will become stagnate . The thrill is gone . Engage people . Make your voices heard . Now is the time for all good people to come to the aid of there country . Make your voice heard .

 

Birch post #6: "quantum jesus? quantum buddha? quantum allah? quantum devil? lol."

Note the common denominator here? You're headed in the right direction!

wlminex

 

Yes, debates are necessary, to make progress. But poisonous hateful confrontations can lead to a genocide. That is what scares me.

..............................................

Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia). A am also the author of a FREE ONLINE book entitled “Diary of a Former Communist: Thoughts, Feelings, Reality.”

http://csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/life/intro.html

It is a testimony based on a diary kept between 1946 and 2004 (in the USSR, Poland, France and the USA).

 

Is there any evidence to support this claim?

Actually, this doesn't seem to be the case either.

Genocide happens; but what has lead to it is probably very complex.

 

Why Science and Religion Are Incompatible

 

That was not my claim. RELIGION = THEISM + MANY OTHER THINGS

Are science and theology compatible? I think that the concept of incompatibility would not apply if we had agreed that science deals only with claims in our material world while theology deals only with claims in our spiritual world.

Such agreement would help us to eliminate many unnecessary conflicts.

...............................................

Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia). A am also the author of a FREE ONLINE book entitled “Diary of a Former Communist: Thoughts, Feelings, Reality.”

http://csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/life/intro.html

It is a testimony based on a diary kept between 1946 and 2004 (in the USSR, Poland, France and the USA).

 

The simple truth of the matter is that this conflict will never go away as long as you have theists preaching eternal damnation. There are many other factors of course, but this one, all by itself, ensures that there shall never be peace.

So in order to realize your vision of some sort of unity and mutual respect between theists and atheists, you'd have to ask the theists to make a sacrifice that would be impossible for them to make without violating one of the core tenets of their belief system, which is that not everyone is going to be 'saved'. And I can guarantee you that right now, most theists who read this will be thinking "well, it's actually true, atheists are destined for eternal damnation".

Is this a problem that can be solved kowalskil?

To put it another way, what hope do you think there would be for real peace between two nations if, in spite of a mutual effort toward workable diplomatic relations, it was known that one of those nations considered the other to be so fundamentally flawed that they deserved to be destroyed?

 

Hindus are no better, though. While they don't believe in eternal damnation, they are on the same superiority trip as other theists.

 

Is philosophy a science?

 

Here you go again, casting judgement.

Do you know every single hindu, Signal, from the
moment the term ''hindu'' was announced?

Or can you explain what it is about YOU, that grants
you the right to generalise in this way?


jan.

 

It would be strange if a religion (or "spiritual path," or whichever to call it) would not consider itself superior to all others.

Nowadays, it is generally not PC to say about one's religion that it is superior to all others. It is also not PC to point out that each religion does consider itself superior to all others.

A person would have to be amoral and arational to be an adherent of a path which they do not believe to be superior to all others.