Cut Taxes for the Rich and Boost the Economy

Discussion in 'Business & Economics' started by Pinwheel, Jul 27, 2011.

  1. Pinwheel Banned Banned

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    Does it work? Do the rich generally spend more and 'create jobs' when thier taxes are cut?
     
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  3. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    The answer is no. In a recession or depression, the problem is fear. People with money keep it. They don't add jobs. What is needed is for someone to spend money. Classic economic theory holds that government needs to be the buyer of last resort to prop up lagging demand in the economy.

    Once investors begin to have confidence that all is not lost, they start investing. Greed takes over and the economy starts moving and growing again. Government can then increase taxes and recoup its investment (spending).

    Republicans like to say that tax cuts for the rich are stimulative and they are just flat out wrong. And we can see that with Bush II tax cuts...lowest job growth in the history of the country. And the only jobs growing under his reign were government jobs.

    What is stimulative is people spending money in the economy. One can make an arguement that a tax cut for lower income folks is stimulative because lower income folks are going to spend it. And to the degree that is true, a tax cut for the middle class and lower income groups can be considered stimulus.

    But the best stimulus is government spending. Because government spends.
     
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  5. desi Valued Senior Member

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    Of course it works. The reason nobody is hiring is because of the healthcare tax coming up and Obama's insistence on raising taxes for the budget. All Obama would have to do is cut taxes employers pay and hiring would go up quickly.

    Government spending is not stimulus. It is inflationary debt traded for political favors, ie bailing out union jobs and wealthy banks.
     
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  7. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    So, if we redistribute wealth to the most wealthy, maybe, if they want to, they might give someone a job which makes them even more money? Why didn't this work with the Bush tax cuts?
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2011
  8. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    A few facts if you please, one healthcare reform became effective in March 3, 2010. So your dates are a little off.

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    The nations employment ills started long before healthcare reform was sparkle in the eye of the Republican Party and its special interest backers - off by a factor of 10 years, one of them small details that keep getting in the way of good Republicans.

    Then there was this little thing call the stimulus package that President Obama signed into law in 2009 that consisted of 300 billion dollars in tax cuts. And then there were the tax breaks for small businesses that invest in their business that President Obama has consistently pushed since taking office.

    http://boss.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/29/obama-offers-a-more-generous-tax-credit-for-hiring/

    So Obama has already been there and done that, you just did not know it - must have been listening to limbaugh or beck.

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    Well if that is the case then I am sure you can provide some credible reference that backs up that grandiose claim. But we both know that you cannot back up that claim with a credible reference, because your claim while popular in right wing circles where proof is not needed nor wanted is just not true.
     
  9. Me-Ki-Gal Banned Banned

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    It is not about the tax rate ? All people pretty much want to pay as little as the law allows . The problem is uncertainty . The business people can't calculate risk ( which is the life blood of capitol ventures ) If you can't calculate risk it is not going to happen . People don't invest in there business on a whim and a prayer . Banks don't lend on a whim and a prayer . That is one of the areas were progressives are just like Christians. That is why there is going to be unsettled markets for some time to come still
     
  10. Me-Ki-Gal Banned Banned

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    Bush gave every one checks . He was dunk on giving out the store . I got my bush checks . Did you get your bush checks . The economy tanked from the 9/11 event . Funny coinkidenk . For the market crash was already in the works before the 9/11 event . The 9/11 event sealed the deal . That is what I think . Have we really recovered from that event ? Bush worked hard at giving every one money to spend to jump start the failing markets . He even pushed butt loads of you into the construction industry . That industry heated up from that vote of confidence from Bush baby . Deaths in the industry spiked from lack of experience. OSHA then went on its campaign. Self full filling in a way . Cause they need more money to stop the mayhem and they needed to stop the mayhem so didn't need as much money . So they did a new campaign targeting residential housing . I got busted and had to write the check even though 20 some odd years the company never had an accident . She did show Me mercy ( She ) She got Me fines reduced to a ridiculous discount compared to Me competitors that payed out there fucking asses
     
  11. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    It only works to a certain degree...and IMO we have blown past that degree a long time ago.

    Actually, poor folks find it impossible to save-income pretty much=outgo. The higher you go up the income ladder, the more people are able to save and NOT spend.

    So if you wanted to stimulate the economy a little, you ought to eliminate income taxes on the bottom third or bottom fourth and make that up by increasing tax on the top 1%. And increasing enforcement efforts to catch them breaking the law and dodging taxes illegally...in tax evasion cases we should be entirely mercenary, and the bigger targets should come before the peewees.

    Maserati might take a hit, but I think our economy would tick over better.
     
  12. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    No, the concept is called "trickle-down economics" and since it's inception it has been a complete failure.

    Most spend more for the sole purpose of protecting their wealth. If you want to boost the economy then everyone has to be taxed. Rich, middle class, and poor. The obscenely rich of course will have to foot a higher percentage.
     
  13. Shogun Bleed White and Blue! Valued Senior Member

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    7,635
    It would give a boost yes, but it wouldn't fix the problem.

    It was just like when they threatened the US Government to give bailouts to bankers.

    One thing they want: Money

    Things the average citizen wants: Food on their table, clothes for their families, a roof over their head, a steady paycheck and maybe a little vacation time

    Which requires a job and money.

    The average citizen couldn't care less about anything except what is happening right in front of them. They couldn't care less about anything else if their needs above are not satisfied.

    The rich then take advantage of that and use sometimes job cuts as a show of force. Some job cuts and layoffs and legitimate, but many are just a show of force.
     
  14. Me-Ki-Gal Banned Banned

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    I don't know were you get this stuff . Can you say pure speculation . If that is true I didn't get the memo . Funny cause millions of dollars passed through Me construction company so as far as bankers and suppliers goes well . Lets just say Me financial statement looked really good . It is all an illusion . See if I was to go sell all me holdings and get the money I would be piss poor broke in no time . First good old Uncle Sam would take there percentage. Which would be 42% on part of it because of the stepped up bases , then the rest would be pissed away like when you brake a hundred dollar bill . See when you got lets say 50,000 dollars all of a sudden that is discretionary and you never been around money you feel like you got all the money in the world . It ain't . Lottery winners? What happens to most of them ? There broke a few years down the line?
    Lets see I got a story . Casino owner , ( I forget his name right now, maybe it will come to Me ) He worked hard built his business . He ended up owning a casino in Reno after clawing his way to fortune. Well he had a son that had the silver spoon in his mouth . High faluting big roller daddy always having to bail him out . Anyway Daddy dies . He inherits all de money and sells the casino. 8 million cold hard cash is what he ends up with. 3 years later he is dealing cards at the black jack table in the casino that was owned by his family and he was living check to check . He pissed it away in 3 years .

    The movers and shakers ( Not the lazy butt slothful old money of idol hands ) The people that make things happen ? To them money is just a tool so they can do the things they do . It is a whole different mind set . They will gamble it all if they believe in what they are doing . If they feel it is something worth pursuing they will take the " RISK"
    If the risk is so high failure is emanate. Forget it .
    That was the thing with the banking fiasco. The Risk was to high , but everybody was drunk on the water turned to wine like George Bush . One thing I have to admit and this should make you people that like to "blame" George very happy . George went a long ways to getting the world to drink the water. Yeah that he did .

    O.K. some of you might be wondering " Is Me poor or is he rich . It is all to confusing . I am what you call cash poor . I still live pay check to pay check just like most people .
    There is a principle when it comes to handling Money and if you apply it to your life you will more than likely have no more money probs . Pay your self first . Sounds simple right . Don't pay your self to much though ( For you that go to church and pay 10 % ) don't do that if you can't pay your self first . Pay your self 10% of all the money you ever make . If that is to much start with 5% . Take 5% and put it in the bank out of every check you get . You young people , Under age young people living with your parents . Start now . Develop the habit now cause once you get out on your own the whirl wind of daily living and the cost of it will make it very hard to do . If you do this when you are young you will learn the habit and by the time you start to get your feet wet in the world you will have a good foundation to start from . This is one of the things people that have built there own wealth did . Self Made People is what I am talking about .
     
  15. Me-Ki-Gal Banned Banned

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    4,634
    the more you make the more you spend . Lets take Kip Me brother in-law . Now he made a fortune. He sold a business he developed for millions . He got the prestigious tittle of " Business Man of the Year" in Montana one year . Swimming in money . Well Me sister and the nieces and nephews got real accustom to waring pricey close driving vintage cars ( a couple of wrecked ones , I will tell you all some day about the gas pump incident by one of the nephews if I get the opportunity) They would be insulted if you got them a gift from wal-mart. High on the hog living thumbs up. R,V,'s four wheelers , all the latest greatest skiing equipment . I remember one year the goal was to ski every ski resort in the North west and let Me tell you that is a lot of fucking skiing . Kip ain't all that good of a skier either , I mean he is o.k. but that much skiing he should be like Moe . Anyway he pissed his fortune away yet he is still accustom to high faluting. He cries the blues now . He still makes butt loads of Money although I think he has dipped below 6 figures now with the down economy. Still a lot compared to lots of us in the world . Mismanagement will brake the bank no matter how much or how little you make .
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2011
  16. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    If you ultimately didn't some people get fairly rich a lot of other people would get apathetic; they need aspirations.
    That said I believe in progressive taxation...and we don't seem to have that anymore.
     
  17. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

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    More like corp taxes WORLDWIDE should go up 2% at least. These fuckers are making a new kind of feudalism. The masses should effectively rebel and force this to happen.
     
  18. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    The rich own big businesses which, during the last 10 years, have received many new tax reliefs many of those give them a "free pass" to own planes which they can use as a tax write off, not pay taxes at all on their business because they aren't located in America but do all of their business here, receive subsidies that they really don't need which they pay no taxes on, and a long list of other types of tax benefits that help them pay little to nothing in taxes .

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  19. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

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    Thing is they are so fucking greedy they don't even realize their own wealth will diminish when no one can buy their shit anymore. Which makes me think, no they are not that stupid and are simply trading some of their wealth for power. This is a power play. The gun to the head of countries from banks, the globalization of resources by industrialists and the devaluation of currency allows them to cull the whole flock of worker bees, no matter if they are in debt or savers.
     
  20. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    The American worker is now a slave to their new true owners, the businesses that control the "free marketplace". The more they make they more they must work in order to survive. The dollar is losing its value almost daily and with any new rise in the debt ceiling they will lose even more value and need to repay billions more in interest.

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  21. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

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    Agreed. Well the Chinese will be happy. We are about to live in "Interesting Times"
     
  22. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Yes the American worker is a slave to business in this country. However, dollar devaluation is a canard. If you are upset about the value of the dollar relative to other currencies, just what would those currencies be exactly? And if you are not happy with the value of the dollar now just wait until The United States starts defaulting on its obligations because Congress failed to pay its bills (e.g. failing to raise the debt ceiling).
     
  23. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Yes -that "trickle down" idea is correct, BUT, given that China's growth rate and market size are about four times greater than those of the US, that is where the funds are creating jobs. (Building more modern factories than the US has with much cheaper labor in them, so US factories close or out source jobs.) Purchasing power of salaries in China are increasing at more than 5% per year, but static or declining in the US. China's middle class is rapidly growing, not slowly contracting as in the US. In which would you invest 30 million dollars in if you had that to invest in a new job creating factory?

    In 2010, FoxComm raised the nominal salary of its workers by 30%, yet had shortage of workers. They can now get good jobs nearer their homes in the interior as China builds 100 new cities, each for a population of 1 million and makes huge expansion of the rail roads and power plants, etc. Thus Foxcomm closed two costal factories and re-opened them in the interior.

    China wants the US to keep that "trickle down" investment coming and is angry that Obama wants to reduce it by returning to the tax rates under Clinton that balanced the budget and provided jobs with domestic investments.*

    For example Warren Buffett, used the tax reduction GWB gave him to help BYD motors expand their factory and now owns 10% of BYD. The very rich rarely are completely stupid - they invest (create jobs) where the GDP growth rates are much higher and the markets are much bigger, and not yet anywhere near saturation.
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    * If a moderately well off American hates his job, He is likely to open his own business. - That makes US jobs. Reduce the taxes on the middle class. They cannot afford the international lawyers, consultants and full time financial advisers the likes of Warren Buffett can (and the other top 2% making more than $250,000 /year) The very rich use many agents to help them locate large investment opportunities in Asia and make sure they are well set up legally with support from the local governments (who want more jobs created). Best for the US if they are taxed much more so they stop closing US factories, etc. with their foreign "trickle down" investments.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 28, 2011

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