"Christians aren't perfect, only forgiven". Ever heard this one? Man is born degraded and tainted by the origional sin, yet through the miracle of salvation he is forgiven for his sins. God forgives man. "Acts 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:* 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses." However, it strikes me (ouch) that Christians are not really forgiven by God, they've simply managed to do the reverse. To forgive God. Think about it. You can't believe in God without hating the bastard. To believe in God, one believes that all the pain and misery in the world, was created by something that has the power to alleviate - nay, even to STOP it - and He doesn't. All the unspeakable torments His followers subjected man to, all the children who died in agony from disease, all the cruelty and suffering that has for ever permeated the soul of man - and God, our creator, does nothing!&dagger Now before Tony1 or Elkimlaw starts in on how man chose to suffer when Eve betrayed God for the Devil - bullshit. I don't see how an innocent child, victim of perhaps a partial birth abortion, could ever be held responsible for the disobedience of two humans. We must hate God, if we believe in him. But for those who do, hating God is not an option, psychologically or morally. "Isaiah 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou?" How could one hate his maker, his God? How could one hate the Creator of his life? And how could one not hate his God? The obvious thing to do is to forgive God. And how to forgive God, but to make Him suffer? You know where I am going with this, I presume. God entered the flesh and became man, and lived a life most virtuous and pure among men. Innocent as any man, He was condemned to die in one of the most horrible ways the human mind has devised, with the criminals. Is it a simple fluke of iconography that the crucifixion is so often played out in Christian art? Or, as less charitable minds have suggested, is this simply repressed sadism? I doubt it. John 3:16: " For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." The crucifixion is central to Christianity, and I think it is not only because God loved us enough to enter the flesh and suffer at our hands, but because by hurting God, we become able to forgive Him. Strange, even as an athiest, I find the idea of forgiving God and being accepted into His scheme to be - seductive. Not simply submitting to something so much more powerful than oneself after harming Him&Dagger - although that is, of course, a draw. Righty-o, bloody Anne Rice and Memnoch. Any thoughts, or are you heartless bastards going to ignore my post? (Note to Tiassa: Before you start ragging about how athiests are fighting the Western concept of God or whatever, yeah, I do realize that not all God's are regarded as omnipotent. However, for purposes of simplicity, I'm referring to the Christian God as God. Nifty, eh?) *Ignore the contradiction between this and Luke 12:10, if you please. &dagger: Quit looking at me like that, I don't believe any of this any more than you do. &Dagger: Yes, I know what this sounds like. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Fair enough I mean, you established your context right off the bat with the bumper-sticker slogan. Don't expect me to object on this one. You covered your bases. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Simply put... Okay Xev, Once again we have a phenomena happening here... The odd position by an atheist (a person who doesn't believe in God), who essentially claims the reason he/she is an atheist is because God (which all the while he insists is a "fantasy") is somehow bad, or not completely good by human standards, or seems unwilling to stop evil, etc. The choice is simple... If you are absolutely convinced that God DOES NOT exist, and NEVER HAS exited, it is illogical to attribute bad deeds to him, sense he does not now exist, nor has he ever existed in the history of the universe. On the other hand, if God DOES exist, a human's personal opinion of his actions, or worthiness to be worshipped makes no difference to God, since he IS God and is therefore above complete human comprehension. Do you see? So arguments by atheists about how God is a "bastard" for allowing bad things to happen, is just a collosal "red herring" and frankly a waste of time. XXXOOO Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! -Mike
Mike: I am not and have never been absolutely convinced that God does not exist. I used to not think He did not exist, that God was simply an invention of the human mind. I'm not angry at God. I would be if He existed. I'm angry at the world and I'm angry at mankind for being such a - for being so much and falling so far short. And I'm angry at myself. And well, I'm just kind of pissed off in general. Which sounds horridly adolescent - I mean, to be angry at suffering? Fuck that, I should just start writing poetry about vampires and suicide instead. But I still feel this way. Yes, we would be nothing to God. I believe my quote of Isiah summed it up nicely, did it not? Or as I said on another forum, about Judaism: Man is forever short of the Glory and Infinite Power of G-d. He can submit to the will of G-d, though, and by knowing his place, he attains virtue. I can't think that way. Or I can, but - I'm not arguing as an athiest. I'm trying to dissect the Christian mentality, and wondering what it would take for me to believe. As I said, "bloody Anne Rice novels screwing with Xev's athiestic little mind" You see, it's not that I believe now. It's that I accept the possibility of belief. I've always accepted the possibility of God's existence, but in a more real way now. I do believe you are flirting with me! I thought you weren't supposed to be unequally yoked? Rats. So "yoking" is out. How about handcuffs? (Behave now, Xev)
Not at all Ekimklaw Please see my well thought out if i do say so myself post on something a little like. http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10595 I don't philosophy to prove that god does exist or that god doesn't exist but to find god or, in the tragedy of failure, resign myself to the possibility of there not being a god. Perhaps in his own way Xev and others like him grapple with these issues like I do. Being much more closer to resignation of none existance of god yet hold what ever small candle to the othewise. To draw blood on the concepts that some christians blindly hold is to get them to defend it in the hopes perhaps that they manage to say something convincing other then some of the somewhat empty words you have already heard so much. Not that I buy this sadistic machosistic relationship he describes between god and mankind. But it really is as good as some of the other arguments given. .
Hobbes: Firstoff, I am not a "he". I am a woman, therefore a "she". Not quite. I was a content little athiest until very recently. Oh no, I just enjoy tussling with Mike. To be fair, I'm fascinated by faith. I think I am one of the few people who has no faith in practically anything. And these - these are random thoughts provoked by Menmoch the Devil and my anger. SHE! Sheesh, we can't have Mike thinking I'm male, can we? And you're the one who said "sadomasochistic" (no he didn't, Xev, he said- right). I'm trying to avoid that, because it sounds really offensive and almost - blasphemous. And then Mike wouldn't reply to my topics. And also to prove that I can think about things without involving sex OR the Will to Power. Really, I can. I mean it. I really mean it. I can do that. *Mutters "Cthulhu is my higher power"*
============================================== Xev wrote: I am not and have never been absolutely convinced that God does not exist. I used to not think He did not exist, that God was simply an invention of the human mind. ============================================== The journey of a thousand miles starts with one step. ============================================== Xev wrote: I'm not angry at God. I would be if He existed. I'm angry at the world and I'm angry at mankind for being such a - for being so much and falling so far short. And I'm angry at myself. And well, I'm just kind of pissed off in general. ============================================== Now now... though you're cute when you're angry, I don't think it is good to be mad "in general". I think of all things in this world, anger must have justification and specificity. ============================================== Xev wrote: Yes, we would be nothing to God. I believe my quote of Isiah summed it up nicely, did it not? ============================================== Now that isn't what I meant, and I must disagree with you there. I DO NOT believe that God considers us to be off his radar screen of concern. I DO believe that if God exists (and I believe he does), we cannot, as finite humans, be 100% sure of his motives and nature. The only way we would have a chance of this is if he "revealed" it (or a significant understandable portion of it) to us. But assuming God exists, at the end of the day, regardless of our "point of view" he will go right on existing in his majestic sovereignty. Imagine a peasant boy living in ancient Rome. He is raised a loyal subject of the Emperor. Yet all his life he has NEVER actually seen "the Emperor". But his family tells him about the emperor's law, the emperor's roads, the emperor's land, the emperor's this, the emperor's that. He is told that the Emperor's image is even on the coins. One day the boy says, "There is no Emperor". While at that very moment unbeknownst to the boy, 3,000 miles away on the edge of the frontier with Germania, Emperor Marcus Aurelius sits surveying a vast battlefield which smolders with the aftermath of war. Dead bodies litter the landscape. Once again the Emperor has saved the Roman Empire from being overrun by Gothic hordes bent on the destruction of Rome. The Empire survives again thanks to the tactical brilliance of the emperor. You see, the Emperor is no less alive because the boy doesn't believe in him. ============================================== Xev wrote: Man is forever short of the Glory and Infinite Power of G-d. He can submit to the will of G-d, though, and by knowing his place, he attains virtue. ============================================== That is a pretty good way of putting it. ============================================== Xev wrote: I'm not arguing as an athiest. I'm trying to dissect the Christian mentality, and wondering what it would take for me to believe. ============================================== Fair enough. What it will take is the admittance that you do not, cannot know all things. Therefore you cannot be 100% sure that God does not exist. But if he does, it would be better to accept his offer of salvation rather than reject/mock/slander him. It's like this. You are in a burning building. You are on the 3rd floor. Maybe 35-40 feet above the pavement. If you remain where you are you will be burned to death. If you leap, you MAY survive. So do you stay and burn or leap? Most people would take the chance and leap. Slim though the chance is, it's better than sure death by being char-broiled. The point of this illustration is this. There is sufficient evidence for millions to conclude that God exists. Now, if he doesn't exist, so what? Death waits for us all. And after death, nothing. But if he does exist, he has a will and we are meant to be in line with it, or suffer the consequences. ============================================== Xev wrote: You see, it's not that I believe now. It's that I accept the possibility of belief. I've always accepted the possibility of God's existence, but in a more real way now. ============================================== You are an intelligent woman, free to make up your own mind based on your own search for the truth. You should be convinced in YOUR mind. There is nothing as powerful as personal conviction. ============================================== Xev wrote: I do believe you are flirting with me! I thought you weren't supposed to be unequally yoked? ============================================== Why do you think I'm trying so hard to convert you? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! -Mike
Mike: Whoa boy, I didn't say I believed. I say I - ah - oh shit. It probably isn't, but my anger has served me well and it has kept me sane and willing to fight. I do. Think about it. How could we matter anything to G-d? How could an infinitely perfect being care about man - who is a, a worm - how could something of infinite grace and power concern Itself with man, a thing of dust? I'm not going to play philosopher-games with you and say "well the quantum observership principle suggests.....". I agree with you, whether or not we observe or believe in God doesn't affect Him. Aaaaargh! I've never said I knew all things. I've always noted that I don't know shit. I don't know a quarter of one percent of the things there are to know. I was never much of a submissive, Mike. Well actually, that's not exactly true, but - How could I ever worship such a horrid sadist? Sorry Mike. I think I might believe in God now, but He isn't your God (although He is close to Christ) and He isn't the God of my fathers. He is - perfect and not petty like YVWH or cruel like your God. And your God is cruel, Mike. Condemning a child to hell because they were born in Iran or whatnot and never knew of Christ? That's fucked, Mike, it's totally fucked. And yes, I am expecting God to conform to my standards. But my standards are my honour and my faith. You see, Mike, I could forgive your God for the suffering in the world. I could accept hell - fuck, Mike, I deserve hell. I'm not a good or a nice person, and I've done some pretty awful things. But I won't accept a God that damns me or anyone else for not believing in Him. There's no evidence for it. Faith is irrational....and how dare He ask for irrationality? I realize that I'm talking about Him as though He exists, and that you're going to tease me and my fellow athiests will worry about me. But I don't care. Am I reaching to Him in my weakness? I don't think so. I don't know. I'm familiar with this, with the ground dropping out from under my feet.....but now.....it's as if a whole new realm of potentialities opened up to me. Boredom. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! You see, my athiesm had two prongs holding it in place, like a diamond in a setting. I did not intuitively believe in God I did not rationally believe in God Now, a prong is missing. I am intuitively agnostic and rationally athiestic. But intuitively...ah...therin lies the trouble. I *could* convert to Christianity. Or Judaism....but that does not appeal. I'm suprised that I have the choice. I mean, emotionally. *Mutters "shit, I need a drink" for the zillionth time and wanders off*
*Originally posted by Xev However, it strikes me (ouch) that Christians are not really forgiven by God, they've simply managed to do the reverse.* This is an interesting version of philosophizing by reversing the words. It's a fun game... I think therefore I am, or, I am therefore I think. To be or not to be, that is the the question, or, To question or not to question, that is to be. You get the point. It is an incredibly rich source of time consumption during periods of intoxication. *You can't believe in God without hating the bastard.* A lot of "atheists" claim to be able to hate him without believing. Try that on one on and see if you can retain your sanity in any way, shape or form. *To believe in God, one believes that all the pain and misery in the world, was created by something that has the power to alleviate - nay, even to STOP it - and He doesn't.* He's delegated that to us. When are you going to start fixing the problem? *All the unspeakable torments His followers subjected man to, all the children who died in agony from disease, all the cruelty and suffering that has for ever permeated the soul of man - and God, our creator, does nothing!&dagger* ? And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (Mark 16:17,18, KJV). He gave us that. When are you going to start believing and then doing that? *Now before Tony1 or Elkimlaw starts in on how man chose to suffer when Eve betrayed God for the Devil - bullshit.* Eve was deceived, and the deception continues. Besides, man didn't choose to suffer, he chose to listen to his wife, big mistake. And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; (Genesis 3:17, KJV). *The obvious thing to do is to forgive God. And how to forgive God, but to make Him suffer? You know where I am going with this, I presume. God entered the flesh and became man, and lived a life most virtuous and pure among men. Innocent as any man, He was condemned to die in one of the most horrible ways the human mind has devised, with the criminals.* One has to admit that this reversing philosophy leads one down some interesting paths. *is this simply repressed sadism? I doubt it. John 3:16: " For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."* You seem so close to the truth. *The crucifixion is central to Christianity, and I think it is not only because God loved us enough to enter the flesh and suffer at our hands, but because by hurting God, we become able to forgive Him.* Of course, I wonder if you have noticed what you have said here. You yourself weren't there 2000 years ago crucifying Jesus, yet you yourself become able to forgive him, as though you were there. Using the same principle you propose yourself, all people are sinners even though they may not have actually committed some particular sin. *Strange, even as an athiest, I find the idea of forgiving God and being accepted into His scheme to be - seductive....* You're not an atheist. If God didn't really exist, then you couldn't even come up with ideas like this. *Yes, we would be nothing to God.* We would be LIKE nothing to God. We are, however, very important to God. ...I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Galatians 2:20, KJV). *How could we matter anything to G-d? How could an infinitely perfect being care about man - who is a, a worm - how could something of infinite grace and power concern Itself with man, a thing of dust?* He made us. For he knows our frame; he remembers that we are dust. (Psalms 103:14, KJV). *I'm suprised that I have the choice. I mean, emotionally. * I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your seed may live: (Deuteronomy 30:19, KJV).
Tony: I was hoping you'd have something to say on this. I don't feel well. I swear, I was perfectly sober. But of course. I suppose one can hate the "concept" of God, but who hates concepts? I don't hate Hannibal Lector, for instance.....because no such person exists outside novels. Fixing the problem of human misery? I can't, Tony, not alone. I'm not powerful enough. I think the origional sin was disobedience, refusing to submit to God, not wanting knowledge or being decieved. Dosen't it? Or rather, a bizzare synthesis of the Jewish concept of submission, musings on resemblence to sadomasochism, reading Anne Rice and above all, Nietzsche..... I think I do need a drink! *Laughs* Of course. Compared to the infinite power and glory of God, man is nothing. If God is all-powerful, He must be all-ethical, because power breeds ethical behaviour. Man is not all-powerful, thus cannot be all-ethical. Power is the source of goodness. Thus, if God is all powerful, he is perfectly rightous. Man is not powerful, thus he is degraded and a - sinner. Well wait, if the concept of God didn't, you'd be right. But the concept of God does. That doesn't mean God exists. As for my athiesm, you're a good KJV, 1611 sort of guy. You must know Psalm 14:1 "The fool has said in his heart, There is no God" It's quite correct. Disbelief in God operates on an intuitive level, not intellectual. Just as belief (faith) does. This is not to say that athiesm requires faith. Rather to say that athiesm is extreme skepticism, the opposite of faith. Don't you see? I have said intuitively - in my heart- that there is no God. But my intuition has changed. I doubt it. How can man, degraded, corrupt and weak, be important to the pen-ultimate Power? A4Ever: Anne Rice. Nietzsche. Like I said to Tony: "Dosen't it? Or rather, a bizzare synthesis of the Jewish concept of submission, musings on resemblence to sadomasochism, reading Anne Rice and above all, Nietzsche....." I think about all these things at once, and I suppose I just sort of said, "Well, you know, I believe in power. Why don't I believe in Power?".
*Originally posted by Xev I was hoping you'd have something to say on this. I don't feel well.* OK, I'll say something. Perhaps you're feeling ill. *Fixing the problem of human misery? I can't, Tony, not alone. I'm not powerful enough. * You wouldn't be alone. You'd have God helping. *I think the origional sin was disobedience, refusing to submit to God, not wanting knowledge or being decieved.* And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. (1 Timothy 2:14, KJV). *Or rather, a bizzare synthesis of the Jewish concept of submission, musings on resemblence to sadomasochism, reading Anne Rice and above all, Nietzsche.....* Above all, Nietzsche? You mean the guy who said that what doesn't kill him will make him stronger, AND is now currently dead? He may have overlooked something. *Compared to the infinite power and glory of God, man is nothing.* He may look like nothing, but do not underestimate man. If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; (John 10:35, KJV). God shares. *If God is all-powerful, He must be all-ethical, because power breeds ethical behaviour. * He is all-ethical indeed, but I'm curious as to how you concluded power breeds ethical behavior. Most atheists and other anti-God types seem to think that power corrupts. *Power is the source of goodness. Thus, if God is all powerful, he is perfectly rightous. Man is not powerful, thus he is degraded and a - sinner.* You are reaching some amazing conclusions here. Minor quibble: power and goodness go hand-in-hand. However, man is degraded. It takes power to make man good, and God does have that power. And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God. (Luke 18:27, KJV). *Well wait, if the concept of God didn't, you'd be right. But the concept of God does. That doesn't mean God exists.* Ordinarily, you might be right. The "concept" of God is, however, rather extraordinary. Thus, the existence of the concept essentially proves the existence of God. It is something like the following... Since the concept of a concept exists, of necessity concepts exist. *Disbelief in God operates on an intuitive level, not intellectual. Just as belief (faith) does.* Admittedly, for a lot of people "faith" does operate on an non-intellectual level. Actual faith is intellectual. *Rather to say that athiesm is extreme skepticism, the opposite of faith.* By the typical atheist definition of faith, atheism is the blindest of all blind faiths, and is skeptical only of one thing, the truth. OTOH, Christianity is extreme skepticism, being completely skeptical of all things, except the truth. *Don't you see? I have said intuitively - in my heart- that there is no God. But my intuition has changed.* Glad to hear it. *How can man, degraded, corrupt and weak, be important to the pen-ultimate Power?* The next-to-last power? I'll assume you mean "ultimate." Man is important to God, because God made man. *I think about all these things at once, and I suppose I just sort of said, "Well, you know, I believe in power. Why don't I believe in Power?". * The source of all power, i.e. God?
Xev, you're right... you can't do it alone! We must form a heroic group called Atheists to Stop Human Suffering, an elite group of you, I, Tyler, and Adam (if they agree of course)... We can be heroes... and... and... I can't describe the feeling, it makes me warm and fuzzy inside...
Tony1, you're such an idiot you can't even see past your own truth to realise that other people have other truths. While theirs may not really be true, no smart person goes around saying "Well, so what if prayer in school offends people who worship other gods? This is the one true god they pray to in school, so of course it's ok." The thing is, if not everybody believes what you say is the truth, it's pointless and in fact rather insulent to use it as evidence of your ultimate point. Christianity is skeptical of all things, except the truth? A Muslim, a Hindu, a Buddhist, or a Jew would say the same thing of their religions. All of those religions are the truth - to the people who believe them. So at the moment, your beliefs aren't REALLY true, although they may be correct, other people KNOW the opposite of what you say, often they give evidence of paranormal experiences, writings in foreign languages made by your bronchial tree, &c (hey, Christianity can't boast that, I'd choose Islam over Christianity any day, because essentially Islam /is/ Christianity, plus more... Muhammad supposedly was sent to combat the corruption that supposedly occured in monotheism...) I've seen many, many, many people do that before, most of them Theists, but there were Atheists as well.
Tony: Sartrean nausea doesn't count. *Smiles* Not that I'm unfamiliar with it. Genesis 3:17: And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Eve was decieved, I agree. But she was decieved and led Adam into the sin of not submitting to G-d. Yeah, but he'll recur eternally. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Nietzsche implicitly embraced the Absurd - that life is meaningless, and the struggle is meaningless, but one should fight anyway. Nietzsche struggled towards the overman. To quote the band, Wumpscut: "All life is war, all life is pain, and you fight alone, and your fight alone is your characteristic war" But Nietzsche couldn't quite give up on eternity. He loved life too deeply...and thus the eternal recurrence, where everything would happen again. "For I love thee, O Eternity!" Good point. "What is great in man is that he is a bridge and not a goal: what is lovable in man is that he is an over-going and a down-going" --Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathrusra I don't. I think power purifies and elevates, in the hands of the right person. It is only in the hands of the truely weak that power harms. Power only corrupts the corrupted. As for how I came to this conclusion, it's from watching what happens when weak people have power. I could explain this in terms of submission/dominence in S&M, but then, "purifies and elevates" would sound more than a bit silly. *Grins* So I will simply yammer on and hope you understand my point. Basically, true power implies self restraint. There's no need for someone to be destructive to feel power if they are already powerful. I'll agree. This is why the Christians also have the concept of Salvation. The Jews became good through submission to G-d and family. As Nietzsche says, speaking of the Jews: ""To honour father and mother, and from the root of the soul to do their will"- this table of overcoming hung another people over them, and became powerful and permanent thereby." But of course they "went a-whoring" after other Gods. Man is a thing to be overcome. Man is crammed with concupiscence. Man is degraded. Thus....the necessity of Christ. I disagree on how "extrordinary" the concept of God is. God could be an invention of man. Man is extrordinary...however degraded he may be. How so? I completely disagree. There's no evidence (that I've observed - and don't you go telling me that the "heavens declare the glory of God") for the existance of God. How then, can we believe? Sorry. I was thinking of the last man and the overman and their relation to God. Penultimate sortof....oh nevermind. Exactly. The cosmic, life-affirming Will to Power. Is this a road to God? Hmph, I think Nietzsche would be spinning about in his grave if he heard the linkage of his philosophy with Christianity. Sorry Freddy. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Freddy made the link between Christianity and the Ubermensch himself, if I undersand correctly. I can't find the text at the moment, but I believe he listed Christ as being one of those people who came close to the ubermensch. He has all the necessary requirements, like questioning values and making his own. Christ said to embrace life and live it to the fullest. Only after his death Christianity turned into some guilt fed perversity of denying life. This happened the moment organised religion took over. Freddy will love your post puberal insights in his work Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! edit: when you say you are doubting the existence of God on an intuitive level, but that there is no rational reason for Him, that makes me think of Kierkegaard. You know the dude? He is strongly against organised religion, sees the hypocrisy of people who just go to church on sunday and call themselves for that christian. He says that religion is always a leap into the great unknown, into something we can't comprehend. This leap is what is expected to be a christian. You can't debate much about God with rational elements: you can debunk every single one of them, as is shown over and over again on Sciforums. If God exists, he will be far greater than anything you can imagine. Even this 'greater' is wrong: you can just not say anything meaningful about God. Other concept: some eastern dudes claim that truth is always in synthesis. You have a and b, the higher truth is c. While you are angry that God is letting atrocities happen, you are making him human. You are putting him under the judgement of good and evil. It is possible that God transcends these two elements. Like Kierkegaard says: God is THE greatest mistery. Maybe -and this is as valid as constantly blaming him for stuff- we are here -like Nietzsche said- to define good and evil and live by it. By our own definition, letting people starve is evil. We somehow learned that. We can do something about it. (well, not the individual as such, but humanity as a whole) After this life, we might go to another plane of existance. All is defined in other ways. (maybe no gravity Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ) There are other things to do then to ponder about good and evil. This could be the 'eternal recurrance'. Why would you limit Nietzsches insights to fulminating against some time bound book like the bible? Free your mind and get busy Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! (in my defence: I am using the hammer, so I don't HAVE to be logical all the time Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! )
Xev.. Oh!! Xev what happened to Cthulhu? getting confused is he? Don't let Tony stray you away from reason and seek the eternal fairy tale. Sometimes people get on a slump, that's ok, you are only human. As for Nietzsches he is somewhat outdated, stick more in the light of Hobbs, Ayn Rand, Thomas Paine, "The Age of Reason" if you can find it. If you truly want to understand religion check this book: "The Psychology of Religion" by Ralph W. Hood, Jr., Bernard Spilka, Bruce Hunsberger,& Richard Gorsuch. Meanwhile use logic, so you can understand why bad things, happen. Simple thing is "there's no evidence of a supernatural god". i.e. If god is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient. Why would "it" ask Adam & Eve what they have done? "It" should have known the outcome of "it's" experiment, in the Garden, "it" should have known the serpent was present, "it" toyed with two robots that were not human, and wanted to have a free will and mind. if god is omnipotent he could make a square circle, an elephant out of an acorn, or a tree that surpaces the atmosphere into space. Is this illogical or what?. All the above is a metaphysical impossibility as is the existence of an omnipotent being. God is purely subjective.
GB-Gil: Godless: Still sleeping his sleep of death in his underwater palace. This has nothing to do with Tony, Godless. Nor do I intend to "stray from reason". I was hoping for Tony's insights into this - especially because y'all were ignoring my topic. *Sniffles* I'm arriving at an interesting and very heretical concept of God, Christianity and Judaism. This does not mean I accept it. It simply means that I am entertaining the thought. I find the idea seductive, however. I've read "Age of Reason". Fuck outdated, Nietzsche addresses me. A4Ever: Between Jesus and the Overman, yes. In "The Antichrist". "There has only been one true Christian, and he died on the cross" Existentialist. Haven't read him, Camus talks about him. I have not. Nietzsche's attack on Christianity was a small part of his philosophy, and really only an attack on the denial of the Now for the Beyond. GB-Gil: Oh now, this I like. We can be superheroes of a sort.
