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Thread: Unmanned Sub Tracker - Testers Wanted

  1. #1

    Arrow Unmanned Sub Tracker - Testers Wanted

    One of my military sources has informed me that this technology needs human testers before the prototype submarine tracking systems can be programmed with all the necessary variables. So, the US NAVY has developed a "game" in which you pit your wits against a hostile sub using whatever tactics it can to throw you off.
    I've not "played" this myself yet, but it is available for free download at http://go.usa.gov/TC1
    If you're into military intelligence and/or R&D, your input could help affect the programming of the "ANTI-SUBMARINE WARFARE CONTINUOUS TRAIL UNMANNED VESSEL" or ACTUV as it's being called.
    Ten-Hut!

  2. #2
    Interplanetary homesteader domesticated om's Avatar
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    How much does it pay?

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by domesticated om View Post
    How much does it pay?
    Nothing. Cutbacks you see.

  4. #4
    I liked the original dangerous waters, so Im gonna try this out.

  5. #5
    I'm more into flight sims, and did some of the development on the EF2000 Eurofighter, or Typhoon as it later became..You never know, in a few years you might have been responsible for helping tracking down a real enemy sub with bad intentions.

  6. #6
    Be kind to yourself always. cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    Whenever I go looking for metal I use a device called a search coil.

    "A metal detector search coil is the rounded coil of wire on the end of the metal detector. The coil is fed a signal by the electronics in the body of the detector and transmits to the area surrounding it via an oscillating electromagnetic field. When the field comes into contact with a metallic object, its shape is altered. This is detected by the coil, which sends a signal back to the electronics in the metal detector, causing a sound that notifies the user of the presence of metal."

    This can be enlarged to the length of a large ship to send the signal down very deep into the water. So if any metal object is found it cannot be hidden because this device sees everything metallic. Unlike SONAR this would not hurt fish but only find metal.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    Whenever I go looking for metal I use a device called a search coil.
    This can be enlarged to the length of a large ship to send the signal down very deep into the water. So if any metal object is found it cannot be hidden because this device sees everything metallic. Unlike SONAR this would not hurt fish but only find metal.
    I might be mistaken, but isn't it a moving field system? It wouldn't work if the vessels were interacting too weakly methinks. It would also require a humungous amount of power to search a mile underwater wouldn't it? The best metal detectors only work to about a foot or so underground so you're talking about a serious bit of kit there.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    Whenever I go looking for metal I use a device called a search coil.

    "A metal detector search coil is the rounded coil of wire on the end of the metal detector. The coil is fed a signal by the electronics in the body of the detector and transmits to the area surrounding it via an oscillating electromagnetic field. When the field comes into contact with a metallic object, its shape is altered. This is detected by the coil, which sends a signal back to the electronics in the metal detector, causing a sound that notifies the user of the presence of metal."

    This can be enlarged to the length of a large ship to send the signal down very deep into the water. So if any metal object is found it cannot be hidden because this device sees everything metallic. Unlike SONAR this would not hurt fish but only find metal.
    There is a sensor like that, I think its abbreviated MAD, and was actually usable in the original dangerous waters of which this game is a small mod to the original without any of the original missions nor gameplay.

    It was rather short in range.

  9. #9
    Be kind to yourself always. cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ULTRA View Post
    I might be mistaken, but isn't it a moving field system? It wouldn't work if the vessels were interacting too weakly methinks. It would also require a humungous amount of power to search a mile underwater wouldn't it? The best metal detectors only work to about a foot or so underground so you're talking about a serious bit of kit there.
    But if the moving field were to be pulled begind a destroyer or other large ship and powered by very large generators found on large ships it should be able to penetrate a vert deep distance. Say the device was over 3,000 Sq. Ft., and powered by a 300,000 KW generator or larger, it should be able to find any metal object at almost any depth.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    But if the moving field were to be pulled begind a destroyer or other large ship and powered by very large generators found on large ships it should be able to penetrate a vert deep distance. Say the device was over 3,000 Sq. Ft., and powered by a 300,000 KW generator or larger, it should be able to find any metal object at almost any depth.
    Kinda makes me wonder if it would be cheaper to seed the sea-bed in critical locations with stand-off torps configured with an IFF system, though this might be considered mining an area.
    I've heard of WWII experiments where the entire hull of ships have been encircled with coils for this very reason, though I don't know how the tech has progressed. Passive systems are usually preferable as they don't give away your position to the enemy.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by ULTRA View Post
    Kinda makes me wonder if it would be cheaper to seed the sea-bed in critical locations with stand-off torps configured with an IFF system, though this might be considered mining an area.
    I've heard of WWII experiments where the entire hull of ships have been encircled with coils for this very reason, though I don't know how the tech has progressed. Passive systems are usually preferable as they don't give away your position to the enemy.
    I do believe the US has those. Mines that fire off a torpedo.

  12. #12

  13. #13
    Be kind to yourself always. cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fedr808 View Post
    I do believe the US has those. Mines that fire off a torpedo.
    How do the mines tell the difference between a "good" sub and a "bad" one?

  14. #14
    I doubt they do.
    Here's some more info on MAD:
    During the Vietnam War the original AC-130A Spectre gunships and the A-6C Intruder employed the "Pave Mace"/"Black Crow" magnetic anomaly detection system to detect truck ignition coils in vehicles hidden under heavy jungle canopies. When the electric current flowing through such a coil changes it produces a magnetic flux, which is, in simplest terms, a change in the magnetic field over a given area. In particular, when the trucks were turned on the current flowing through the coils went from zero to some maximum, producing a large and easily detectable flux.

  15. #15
    Be kind to yourself always. cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fedr808 View Post
    I doubt they do.
    So then how are they so great if they will blow up a "friendly" instead of the bad one? They also could be triggered to go off from a distance as well. Then there's a chance of premature ejection.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    So then how are they so great if they will blow up a "friendly" instead of the bad one? They also could be triggered to go off from a distance as well. Then there's a chance of premature ejection.
    Play the game "dangerous waters" by sonalysts. It is an extremely accurate submarine simulator, to the point where you actual have to control the same displays as on the original submarines (although they are probably not up to date given the top secret nature of these submarines).

    These mines are only given passive sonar detectors. The problem with them is that you can only gain so much information.

    The only piece of information you can reliably ascertain is target bearing and whether it is surface or subsurface.

    You can frequently get the frequency of the sound, but this can be distorted through it's path in the ocean. But its good enough to generally narrow down the choices to a very limited number of ships or subs, maybe a dozen or so. Because different engineering characteristics produce different sounds.

    At that point I think that it would input it into another sensor, whose name I honestly cannot remember. But it creates a screen where it can figure out how many props the craft has based on how many "lines" running from the top to the bottom there are. Surface craft frequently have 3-4 props. Subs usually have 6-8. If the mine can guesstimate which submarine it is based off of the passive array's data it can ascertain a reasonably accurate speed of the sub. This also checks whether its guess as to which one of possibly a dozen different craft is right. A submarine is not likely to be running at 20-30 knots unless its a seawolf.

    After some more tracking lines given by the passive array it can possibly make a rudimentary targeting solution. then it probably has the torpedo fire a ping on sonar to determine depth and definite range. Once that is inputed into the targeting solution the torpedo is then launched in active sonar mode.

    Hopefully it will destroy the sub.

    If the computer is particularly good if it detects a sub running at 15-20 knots it may launch the torpedo in passive mode because the sub will be moving so fast it couldn't hear the torpedo if it actually wanted to. And its probably supercavitating so the torpedo will easily be able to track and follow it to the target.

    But I doubt its that sophisticated to do that.

    They also could be triggered to go off from a distance as well. Then there's a chance of premature ejection
    How?

    The only way I could see that this mine could be disrupted is if there is a set sonar frequency that can be emmitted by friendly ships that will disarm the mine. Knowing the USN, thats probably what they use.

    How would you go about setting this thing off prematurely?
    Last edited by fedr808; 04-19-11 at 12:50 PM.

  17. #17
    Be kind to yourself always. cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    How?

    The only way I could see that this mine could be disrupted is if there is a set sonar frequency that can be emmitted by friendly ships that will disarm the mine. Knowing the USN, thats probably what they use.

    How would you go about setting this thing off prematurely?
    What if a fish or whale could emit the frequency? What if the bad guys just sit around and play with various frequencies until they hit the right one , eventually they will. What if the mine just has a malfuncution within itself?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    What if a fish or whale could emit the frequency? What if the bad guys just sit around and play with various frequencies until they hit the right one , eventually they will. What if the mine just has a malfuncution within itself?
    No, wouldn't happen. The sound of a propeller and the sound of a fin are two entirely different things.

    The only time ocean life ever becomes a concern is when you employ active sonar. Which this sort of mine would not until immediately prior to launch.

    The problem is because the frequency can be fairly specific. If they keep trying to guess and check with different frequencies the mine will detect those 'wrong' frequencies, and after a minute or so it can plot out a reliably accurate target solution. Enough to warrent a single active sonar pulse to put the finishing touch on the solution. After that it launches a torpedo, at which point there is no way to shut it off.

    Cosmic, a torpedo literally cannot engage if there is no target solution. If by some miracle the mine does go off and fire the torpedo the torpedo will be pushed forwards a few dozen meters due to its momentum.

    It's propeller nor computer will engage and it will sink to the sea floor.

    Torpedo's cannot work without a target solution.

  19. #19
    Be kind to yourself always. cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    Thank you for your explanations. Can you also determine how long they will last and what about their battery life as well. I know that it would take allot of energy to power a mine like that as well as the torpedo itself when it is sent on its way. So just how long do batteries last on this type of equipment?

  20. #20
    Bleed White and Blue! Shogun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fedr808 View Post
    Cosmic, a torpedo literally cannot engage if there is no target solution. If by some miracle the mine does go off and fire the torpedo the torpedo will be pushed forwards a few dozen meters due to its momentum.

    It's propeller nor computer will engage and it will sink to the sea floor.

    Torpedo's cannot work without a target solution.
    It holds true for most modern torpedoes, yes. However, it is safe to assume they won't use antiqued technology.

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