this seems to be a topic that all sides tend to agree on (as far as there being a physical location to the birthplace of man), I think it is worthy of discussion, paygan: use your own words please,no cut/paste, verbatim or mission. remember the chi..Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!eekPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
************* M*W: I didn't quite get this posted in the thread that went down the cesspool, but the GoE is a metaphor that includes the animal and human figures of the constellations. IOW, the GoE is the zodiac. "Zodiac" comes out of the root word "zoo."
i think thats cause that user was doing the equivalent of preaching.. how does the zodiacs tie into GoE?
************* M*W: From what I've read in astro-theology, the GoE was where all creation began (metaphorically, of course). Humans were on earth, so they would look to the skies to explain creation to them. The zodiac represented the GoE. The constellations of Arcturus and Bootes refers to Adam and Eve, for example. Of course, there are many different allegorical representations of the constellations. Arcturus also represents the myth of King Arthur. Note: Sorry about the broken links. I've removed them, and it's too late to look them up again. Apologies. ~ M*W
************* M*W: That was my point. I removed the links and apologize for not making sure they were live.
************* M*W: I've read where ancient humans looked up at the night sky and saw mythical figures that they created stories about. Myths that got passed down generation to generation became religions. But back to your question. As those characters in the night sky changed with the seasons, the whole mess of them became the zodiac as they rotated around the sun. Some star formations were known as Adam and Eve. There is a constellation of an arc/ark which was the foundation for Noah's ark and the Arc/Ark of the Covenant. It also became the ark that contained the Torah. There is also a constellation of an altar up there. So many myths, so little time, all wandering around their god, the sun.
Thanks for re-opening this thread and considering it worthy of further discussion. It makes me think it worthwhile to continue raising Eden around here. I have to add that that I don't consider Eden as the "birthplace of humanity" as modern humans have been around for 80,000 years and archaeology is our only record for that, and it would be very hard to pinpoint from what we have. What I am suggesting (not preaching) is that the Eden discovered by Christian O'Brien was the "birthplace of agriculture", or possilby " dammed/irrigated agriculture" to define better. This is what further research is needded to show. To re-cap the suggested "Kharsag Thesis" here: 1. There was a famous settlement known as Eden / Kharsag that I suggest was in the Rashay South basin, near modern Rashaya El-Wadi , Lebanon. This got written about, along with the people who lived there (often confused with "Gods") in certain ancient literature (the older the text, the less religious the translation, the more obvious). 2. This settlement is suggested to be the Origin of Agriculture / the earliest and largest central site of the Neolithic Revolution in the Central Levant. (PPNB "Explosion of knowledge" that triggered the Agricultural Revolution where we started domestication of plants). It was destroyed in the "Hiatus Pallestinen" or "Flood", recorded in the Rift Valley area before people moved East to Sumer. 3. Christian O'Brien mapped out features of the Eden / Kharsag settlement from various sources in 1985 and died 2001 before the "Kharsag Thesis" in his self-published book "The Genius of The Few" could be peer reviewed, Edmund Marriage matched the features with satellite imagery in 2006 and I field-walked the site in 2009 with a friend to get photos (see below) and video on the ground and a survey map. We found features matching this PPNB stage - 1 mille Great Watercourse cut through limestone bedrock same specs as Jericho's ditch, house structures facing East like Tell Aswad, limestone plaster like Tell Ramad, dykes, wells, dam and reservoir, Great House site, flooding phenomena, etc. The suggested site of Eden / Kharsag's Great House was in immediate danger from modern construction. 4. I've studied all the sources, religious and scientific for about 4 years now, have no counter-evidence and enough faith in the core of this thesis to condense it as much as possible to raise awareness and Eden from further destruction. I consider the world got fooled into believing Eden was a magical place, lost under the Persian gulf, or the area around where no agriculture existed until after Kharsag was destroyed and Catal Hoyuk was a cultivated farmyard. I figure helping people understand this and conserve the site for our heritage can only help our world and science move forward. Hope it's easier to digest that way. Let me know your thoughts. If there were any questions regarding the material from previous discussions, let me know here.
No problem. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please find the key images below along with an extensive list of sources. Overhanging bridge over cave / sinkhole area, alligned to Mount Hermon, the suggested origin of the "World Mountain" myth. - Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Panorama of Eden / Kharsag - Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Panorama of Eden / Kharsag flooded in 2006 - http://www.paygan.com/eden/images/500/kharsagflood.jpg Sinkhole section of Great Watercourse showing similar 9m x 3m dimensions and Natufian style as Jericho / Tell Es-Sultan - http://www.paygan.com/eden/images/500/sinkholechannel.jpg Exposed sides of the Great Watercourse showing thousands of years of water flow erosion - http://www.paygan.com/eden/images/500/watercoursewall.jpg Same exposed sections and remains of Great Watercourse leading back to the village of Kfar Qooq, approximately 9 metres wide - http://www.paygan.com/eden/images/500/watercourse.jpg One of various oval structures with limestone plaster floor to the North of the Watercourse. Suggested as houses by O'Brien http://www.paygan.com/eden/images/500/houselimestonefloor.jpg Below pictures of the suggested site of The (Enlil's) Great House of Kharsag / Eden - of prime archaeological importance that is in danger from the bulldozers and construction in the basin. I recovered limestone plaster from this area, and it seems to have a level, limestone plaster floor and is in imminent danger of being built on - http://www.paygan.com/eden/images/500/greathouse.jpg http://www.paygan.com/eden/images/500/greathousepaygan.jpg Map of the suggested route of the underground channel we found linking Kharsag / Eden to the Hasbani River http://www.paygan.com/eden/images/500/channel2hasbani.jpg On our last day there we discovered the reservoir area East of Kfar Qooq - this view looks down through the reservoir O'Brien claimed would have held 600 million gallons at capacity - into the Rashaya Basin - http://www.paygan.com/eden/images/500/reservoir.jpg http://www.paygan.com/eden/images/500/kharsagsurvey.jpg All comments most welcome, especially from trained eyes! Sources: Primary Source - O'Brien, C.A.E. & O'Brien B.J., 1985, The Genius of The Few, Wellingborough. ISBN 0-9466-0417-7 (Revised edition by Dianthus Publishing 1999) http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/genius.php Ancient Text Sources - Miscellaneous Babylonian Inscriptions by George A. Barton, 1918, Yale University Press - http://www.archive.org/stream/miscellaneousbab00bartuoft/miscellaneousbab00bartuoft_djvu.txt Kharsag Epic No 1: The Arrival of the Anannage – Tablet No. 14005 - A - Christian O'Brien Translation - http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/593.php W.G. Lambert and A.R. Millard, Atra-hasis: The Babylonian Story of the Flood. ( Oxford, 1969) - http://www.livius.org/as-at/atrahasis/atrahasis.html#Insurrection_of_the_Lower_Gods (the link is an adaptation of the B.R. Foster translation as I couldn't find Millard's text online) Charles, R.H, The Book of Enoch 2 / The Book of the Secrets of Enoch Filiquarian Publishing, LLC., 2006 - http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/fbe/index.htm#section_002 Burkitt, F.C., Jewish and Christian Apocalypses (London, 1914) Ball, C.J., The Book of Genesis: Critical Edition of the Hebrew Text (Leibzig, 1896) Holladay, William L., Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (Leiden, 1971) Liddell and Scott, Greek - English Lexicon (Oxford, 1980) Rabin, Chaim, Studies in the Bible (Jerusalem, 1961) Rowley, H.H. (ed.) The Old Testament and Modern Study (Oxford, 1951) The Torah: the Five Books of Moses (Philadelphia, 1962) Larousse, World Mythology (France, 1963) Grey, Dr. Louis Herbert (ed.) The Mythology of All Races (Thirteen Volumes) (Marshall Jones Company, Boston, 1920-1934) Kramer S.N. 1963. The Sumerians: Their History, Culture, and Character. University of Chicago, USA. Kramer S.N. 1981. History Begins at Sumer: Thirty-Nine "Firsts" in Recorded History: University of Philadelphia Press, USA. Kramer S.N.1963. Sumerian Mythology: Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement in the Third Millennium B.C: University of Pennsylvania Press, USA. Barton, George A., The Origin and Development of Babylonian Writing, (Leibzig, 1896) Cheira, E., Sumerian Religious Texts (Chicago, 1929) Fossey, Charles, Dictionnaire Sumerien (Paris, 1907) Gadd, S.J., Sumerian Reader (Oxford, 1924) Langdon, S.H., Sumerian Grammar (Paris, 1912) Marcus, David., A Manual of Akkadian (New York, 1978) Nies, James B., Dynasty Tablets (Leibzig, 1920) Prince, J. Dyneley, Materials for a Sumerian Lexicon (Leibzig, 1905) Origin of Agriculture Sources Tracing the Origin and Spread of Agriculture in Europe 2005: Ron Pinhasi, Joaquim Fort, Albert J. Ammerman PLoS biology 2005;3(12):e410 Kislev, Mordechai E.; Hartmann, Anat & Bar-Yosef, Ofer (2006a): Early Domesticated Fig in the Jordan Valley. Science 312(5778): 1372. doi:10.1126/science.1125910 (HTML abstract) http://www.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2006/06/01/312.5778.1372.DC1.full Lev-Yadun, Simcha; Ne'eman, Gidi; Abbo, Shahal & Flaishman, Moshe A. (2006): Comment on "Early Domesticated Fig in the Jordan Valley". Science 314(5806): 1683a. doi:10.1126/science.1132636 PDF fulltext http://www.sciencemag.org/content/314/5806/1683.1.full.pdf Peake, H. 1928 The Origins of Agriculture, UK. Perry, W.J. 1926 Growth of Civilisation, UK. Harris D. (ed.), 1999 The Origins and Spread of Agriculture and Pastoralism in Eurasia. UCL Press, UK. Zohary, D. and M. Hopf. 1994 The origin and spread of cultivated plants in West Asia, Europe, and the Nile valley. Domestication of plants in the Old World, 2nd ed. Oxford Univ. Press, New York. Hillman, G 1996 Late Pleistone changes in wild plant-foods available to hunter gatherers of the Northern Fertile Crescent: possible preludes to cereal cultivation in D. Harris (ed.), The origins and spread of agriculture and pastoralism in Eurasia, Smithsonian Institution Press, Washington D.C. Zohary, D. 1999 Genetic Resources and Crop Evolution, 46: 133-142. Monophyletic vs. polyphyletic origin of the crops on which agriculture was founded in the Near East. Gagne, S. E. 2006. (rev.), The Energetics of Food, Inner Traditions International, Rochester http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/965.php Postgate, J.N. 1994. Early Mesopotamia: Society & Economy at the Dawn of History, UK Routledge. Maisels, C.K. 1993. The Emergence of Civilisation: UK Routledge. Fagan, Brian.M. 1990. The Journey From Eden, UK: Thames & Hudson. See Ch16, pp216-225 Wenke, Robert.J. 1990. Patterns in Prehistory, UKPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image!xford University Press Clutton-Brock, J. 1989. The Walking Larder, UK:Unwin Hyman. Ch.14, pp127-155. Nissen, Hans.J. 1988. The Early History of the Ancient Near East, 9000-2000 B.C. USA: Chicago University Press Clark, Graham. 1977. World Prehistory in New Perspective, UK: Cambridge University Press. See Ch2, pp39-94, Ch5, pp227-242 Mortensen, P., "On the Chronology of Early Farming Communities in Northern Iraq", Sumer, 18 (1962) Nearby Archaeological Sources Kenyon, K.M., Excavations at Jericho (London, 1960) Kenyon, K.M., Archaeology in the Holy Land (France, 1970) Stordeur, Daneille - Recherches sur le Levant central/sud : Premiers résultat - http://www.archeorient.mom.fr/FICHES/fiches_actuelles/STORDEUR.html de Contenson, H., 1967. Troisiéme campagne á Tell ramad 1966: rapport préliminaire. Annales Archéologiques de Syria XVII (1–2), 17–24. I am currently working on these, but I mention the 2 above, whcih have resulted in the Tell Aswad and Tell Ramad Wikipedia entries following previous discussion on this forum.
Zimbabwe is the real Eden. We migrated out of Africa . Anything after that is just on the migration root of humanity. WE are all African at our most basic level of existence.
Whats the world mountain myth? Is that where the angels descended on Mount Herman , came down and impregnated native women of the earth or is it some other Mountain myth you talk about. Are you a believer in the seed theory of aliens crashing on mount Herman? then altering humanity by there D.N.A. being introduced into the blood line of native people? We came from Zimbabwe. I will stick with that for now. The mount Herman thing is intriguing .
There's loads of evidence mankind emerged from Africa prior to the Younger Dryas. I do not disagree with this. The suggested dating for the Kharsag / Eden site is after 9,500 B.C., when we'd already left Africa. There are loads of "World Mountain" stories. Almost every culture has one. They're often associated with creation or "Eden". The one you mentioned is a Stitchin-ised amalgam of Enoch 2 and the LATER Atrahasis tablets which have led to a number of wild theories regarding parts translated as "making man out of clay". I find the clay figurines found at archaeological sites the most reasonable explanation for this, certainly not advanced DNA-tampering when there is no hard evidence of such. I don't believe they were aliens, I assume they were Pre-Pottery Neolithic B tribesmen, getting organised in various ways with collective projects and work as per the archaeology shows at other proto-city sites nearby to Damascus and Rashaya.
