There is more in common between Jews and Palestinians ....

[S.A.M.]

In the thread on Israeli natural gas findings, Lucysnow said:

I believe there is more in common between jews and palestinians than there are between muslim immigrants and swedes.

I thought it was an interesting statement since I could not see why there is more in common between Europeans [Jews] moving to Palestine as compared to Muslims moving to [Europe] Sweden. Aren't these just mirror images of each other?

In what way would you consider them to be different kinds of integration? In case of a one state solution, would it be easier for Israeli Jews to integrate with Palestinians than it is for Muslim immigrants to integrate with the Swedes?

What do you think?

edit: could a mod change the title to "there is more in common between jews and palestinians..."

original title is too long and does not show completely

Thanks

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Sam I was just looking to see what Israeli Jews and Palestinians have in common and I came across this disturbing article. Let me know what you think of it please:

http://www.commongroundnews.org/arti...=en&sid=0&sp=0

After reading that I started to think that I was wrong and that in actuality there may be a better chance of integration between muslim immigrants and Swedes if only because they don't have a history of mutual discontent but then I came across this written by a Prof. Hasan Yahya. He wrote a book on the commonalities between the two groups that could help them build common ground and looking at this issue from this perspective I think that there are more things that bind Jews and palestinians in Israel than there will be in the future for Swedes and immigrants as there is less to bridge the gap and more that gets in the way of integration. Integration in Europe is dependent on immigrants being absorbed into their host culture, basically they have to assimilate while holding some vestiges of their past origins. I don't think that the same would be required in Israel. Here is what the professor thinks the building blocks will be:

Objectives: Both groups are humans equal in human right standards. Both Israeli and Palestinian people cherish peaceful life which can be achieved by the law of wisdom survival between them. No doubt that both have historical wisdom to survive into modern times. Both have a supreme objective which is to peacefully and freely practice their beliefs in their independent states.

Origin: Both came from one aroma started from Adam and Eve and later Abraham. Both are Semite people. Both peoples have one Holy Father, Abraham. Both belong to common space and time through history-Palestine.

Religion: God is One among Jews and Arab Palestinians. Respect on ones God determines respect of others' God and belief practices. Some may convert or create their own religion. No one can tell how future religions and beliefs may look like. Keep it for the new generations to decide if they wanted to stick with wisdom survival between the two groups and have freely decide their adapted beliefs.

History: Both peoples have common history in Religious books. The Old Testaments and Jesus history from Abraham to modern times to be recognized equally as great past shared by both Arab Palestinians and Jews. Future history is what is necessary for both to create together as neighbors participating in planned modern civilization.


Conflict commonality: Palestinians are connected with Jews, in conflict over land in the last one hundred years, and vise versa. No part exist without the other part. Your destiny is to live together not to die.

Taking into account that land does not belong to one people alone in terms of time and space. Land, in fact belongs to those who reside over it in time and space, use it, cultivate it, and live over it. Therefore, both have the right to live and survive on the land belongs to them. Soon, all will pass away.

The offspring of both will have different mentalities colored with more common interest. The new generations among Jews and Arab Palestinians, will be more mixed of both Arabic and Jewish culture distinguished by certain characteristics not totally Jewish nor Arabic. Flexibility of joining hearts with minds should lead the future not otherwise. A new product developed through social interactions, and hate and love emotions. Land or state may become a member of federal united state includes both.


Read more: http://www.articlesbase.com/philosop...#ixzz1AkCZR5Gm
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Also what about Arab Jews Sam? Don't they have more in common with muslims in the area?

*edit* In the first post the notion is that its the land and religion that binds the two. In this post I'm asking if Arab Jews are bound by similar cultural memes.

[S.A.M.]

I think Prof Hasan Yahya is kindly disposed but essentially clueluss - Ghassan Michel Rubeiz is clearly more aware of what is going on

Lets compare his theories [religious, political, humanist, sociological, etc] with the facts

Opinion 1: Objectives: Both groups are humans equal in human right standards. Both Israeli and Palestinian people cherish peaceful life which can be achieved by the law of wisdom survival between them. No doubt that both have historical wisdom to survive into modern times. Both have a supreme objective which is to peacefully and freely practice their beliefs in their independent states.

Fact: This is a typical graffiti in Arab neighborhoods where Jewish settlers want to move in. Note the exciting blue doors. And the peaceful contrast of the humanist message




Opinion 2: Origin: Both came from one aroma started from Adam and Eve and later Abraham. Both are Semite people. Both peoples have one Holy Father, Abraham. Both belong to common space and time through history-Palestine.

Fact:

Of the approximately 5.9 million Israelis in 1997, about 4.7 million were Jewish. While the non-Jewish minority grows at an average rate of 4.9% per year, the Jewish population has increased by more than 27% (3% per year) since 1989 as a result of massive immigration to Israel, primarily from the republics of the former Soviet Union. Since 1989, nearly 841,000 such immigrants have arrived in Israel, making this the largest wave of immigration since independence. In addition, almost 20,000 members of the Ethiopian Jewish community have immigrated to Israel, 14,000 of them during the dramatic May 1991 Operation Solomon airlift.

Of the non-Jewish population, about 75% are Muslim Arabs, 16% are Christian Arabs, and about 9% are Druze (non-Arab) and others. The three broad Jewish groupings are:

* Ashkenazim - Jews whose ancesors lived in Germany and eastern-Europe. Most immigrants to Israel from North and South America, Russian, South Africa and Australia are Ashkenazim.

* Sephardim- Jews whose ancestors lived in Spain, Portugal, and North Africa. This category also includes Near-eastern or Oriental Jews, people who descend from ancient Jewish communities in Islamic lands.

* Yemenite Jews - Jews whose ancestors lived in Yemen.

Note that all the Muslims and Christians are of native origin while hardly any of the Jews are. In fact, the Jews are not even all from the same continent. The languages, dress, religion and culture, even cuisine have no point of commonality.

for example:

Palestinians eat several times during the day, with lunch being the largest meal. Cooking styles vary by region and each type of cooking style and the ingredients used are generally based on the climate and location of the particular region and on traditions. Rice and variations of kibbee are common in the Galilee, the West Bank engages primarily in heavier meals involving the use of taboon bread, rice and meat and coastal plane inhabitants frequent fish, other seafood, and lentils, Gaza's inhabitants heavily consume chili peppers too. Meals are usually eaten in the household but dining out has become prominent particularly during parties where light meals like salads, bread dips and skewered meats are served.

Jewish cuisine:

The cuisine generally thought of as "Jewish food" is actually the cooking style of Askenazic Jews of Eastern Europe. Although Jews of this region were often poor and therefore many of these dishes originated as peasant food, later, when economic conditions improved, these home-cooking favorites were refined and remain popular today.

In the early Middle Ages, most Jews in Europe lived in the Western half of the continent, primarily in Germany. With the increase in anti-Semitism in the thirteenth century, however, many moved east to Poland and Russia. There they built on the German culinary traditions, both adapting original German recipes and adopting local foods. Horseradish, pickles, and knishes (pastry pockets filled with vegetables) were all brought from German traditions and passed on to later generations in Eastern Europe.

Harsh winters in Polish and Russia led to the frequent use of grains, root vegetables, hardy tree fruits and nuts, fresh water fish, and dairy products. These foods were the most readily available and, with a little creativity, could be stored. Stews were often eaten, but sauces, except for natural cooking juices or a simple meat or vegetable broth, were typically avoided. Ashkenazic cooking favors simple seasoning combinations that bring out taste of foods rather than show off the number of herbs and spices used. Parsley, chives, dill, and bay leaves are the preferred herbs and black pepper and paprika the most common spices.

Polish Jews in particular enjoyed sweet foods and added sugar to vegetable dishes and fish. Gefilte fish (chopped fish with vegetables) with horseradish sweetened with beets originated in Poland. Russian Jews, however, preferred peppered and sour foods. Sweet and sour stews of are another feature of Ashkenazic cooking. This contrast of sweet with sour was created by blending honey, sugar, or raisins with vinegar or lemon juice. One of the best-known examples of this is tzimmes, a stew of sweet vegetables such sweet potatoes or carrots, dried fruit such as apricots or prunes, and often beef.

Shabbat (Sabbath) meals have long been the most luxurious of the week. Ashkenazic Jews often celebrated the day of rest with sweet and sour fish, pickled meats, chopped goose liver, and kugel (a noodle dish), and of course, braided challah bread. Cholent, a slow-cooked stew of meats, grains, and beans was, and still is, often eaten for lunch.

Opinion 3: Religion: God is One among Jews and Arab Palestinians.

Fact: Eh? Most Jews are atheists and don't believe in God. There are no atheist Muslims/Christians in Palestine. Besides, the Jewish religion is based on race and is transferred by blood when halacha is followed. There are separate courts for Jews and non-Jews for religious and civil issues in Israel.


Opinion 4: History: Both peoples have common history in Religious books. The Old Testaments and Jesus history from Abraham to modern times to be recognized equally as great past shared by both Arab Palestinians and Jews.


Fact: Read "The Invention of the Jewish People" by Shlomo Sand. Then read A History of the Arab Peoples by Albert Hourani. Or if you want to be more limited, read History of Palestine: the last two thousand years by Jacob Haas. Read a bit about Palestinian narrative vs Israeli narrative in "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" by Pappe Let me know what you think of the common history of Palestinians and Jews.

Opinion 5:Conflict commonality: Palestinians are connected with Jews, in conflict over land in the last one hundred years, and vise versa. No part exist without the other part. Your destiny is to live together not to die.

Compare that to the Palestinian history of conflict - since Jews at any time point are Jews even though the word Jew is an eighteenth century invention, I'll use the same criteria for other ethnicities

Syrian occupation - 100 years
Iranian occupation - 200 years [539-332 BC]
Italian occupation - 500 years [68 C.E. to 614 C.E.]
Arab occupation - 614 to 1099 C.E. ie 485 years
European occupation - 1099 -1520 C.E. 421 years
Turkish occupation - 1520 - 1919 C.E. ~400 years
British occupation - 1919-1948 29 years
Israeli occupation of Palestine - 1948 - current 62+ years

What makes the Israelis so special?

Opinion 6 : The offspring of both will have different mentalities colored with more common interest. The new generations among Jews and Arab Palestinians, will be more mixed of both Arabic and Jewish culture distinguished by certain characteristics not totally Jewish nor Arabic. Flexibility of joining hearts with minds should lead the future not otherwise. A new product developed through social interactions, and hate and love emotions. Land or state may become a member of federal united state includes both.

Fact: Breaking News from Occupied Palestine!!!!

We were in the midst of a political tour of East Jerusalem with journalist and activist Abu Hassan, trying to comprehend the bizarre realities in the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood. We stand in front of the house of the evicted al-Ghawi family who I met last year living in a tent outside their property. In 2009, 800 soldiers and police evicted 37 members of this family from their homes. We watch a man with a large black hat and long black coat rush, head tilted down, (is he feeling shame or fear?) into the apartment which is topped by a gigantic menorah. The Palestinian family still receives the water and electricity bills as they refuse to change the registration. What kind of insanity is this?

An elderly Palestinian woman has been evicted from her home where she lived for many decades with her family, extending the one story building to accommodate her children and grandchildren. During the recent eviction, Jewish settlers were moved into the front portion of her house, now draped with a large Israeli flag with Stars of David painted around the front window. This poor woman is now forced to live in the back portion of her house with her son and grandchildren. They are watching cartoons when we arrive and a deadly depression weights the air. Their case is in the Israeli courts where there is little chance they will be treated favorably. At any time this family, like others in the neighborhood, can be evicted forcibly by Israeli military and put out on the street with their meager possessions. An International Solidarity Tent stands in the garden, so it seems they have some international support but the tent is empty.

A friend of Abu Hassan’s arrives and shows him a photo on his cell phone. A demolition is underway nearby at this very moment. Abu Hassan explains that the former house of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem which then became a hotel and then a center for the Shin Bet and collaborators, is being demolished in order to build 500 homes for Jewish settlers. We hustle back into the bus and drive to the area which is crowded with cars and press. The scene is absolutely surreal. A metal fence topped with barbwire partially hides the multi-story building, but the large yellow Volvo bulldozers can be seen smashing at the walls, creating clouds of debris. Peeking through metal bars in a gate, I see a crumbling old structure set back from the road. A crowd of reporters, cameramen, and angry protestors quickly gathers. An older woman with a purple hijab talks and gestures animatedly to a white haired man, Elisha Peleg, a member of the City Council. The general tone of the crowd is one of frustration and rage at yet another land grab in East Jerusalem, another violation of international law, another nail in the coffin of a Palestinian state. Elisha argues that this demolition is all totally legal, citing a variety of administrative procedures. “We have a right to have Jewish families in this unified city. I am very proud of what we are doing.” He says Arabs can easily get permits to build in West Jerusalem (not) and then accuses the protestors of racism, of being paid to come, and angrily questions if any Arabs have papers to prove they were evicted from properties in Jerusalem, had gone through the proper channels, etc etc, very legalistic. (Does he actually believe himself?) This provokes hostile responses from a number of Arab men who clearly had personal experiences with dispossession and experience with the Israeli permitting and court systems. People start chanting, “Shame, shame” and I notice heavily armed security guards in civilian clothes (thugs?) moving closer. At one point a women yells,” You are delusional!” He looks at her and said, “What is this, delusional?”

Read the whole article

And the same as reported in the New York Times:
click me


So I don't see anything in common at all. Neither religion, nor culture, nor language, nor history, nor goals. The Palestinians want a secular state with equal civil rights for all citizens, Jewish Israelis want a Jewish state with one set of rules for Jews and another for the goyim. Where would the twain meet?

[S.A.M.]

Also what about Arab Jews Sam? Don't they have more in common with muslims in the area?

*edit* In the first post the notion is that its the land and religion that binds the two. In this post I'm asking if Arab Jews are bound by similar cultural memes.

Ah, I see. Well Arab Jews like "The artist formerly known as Prince", have been reinvented as Mizrahi Jews. They had to choose between being Jews or Arabs and they chose to be Jews [there is the odd duck like Uri Avnery but these are mostly irrelevant cosmopolitan Jews]. I'm sure there used to be commonalities between them once upon a time, but except for some scattered individuals in the US they no longer self identify as Arab Jews.

Again, Jews from Yemen were like Yemenis, Jews from Iran were like Iranians, Jews from Iraq were like Iraqis, Jews from India were like Indians. Jews from Palestine, must surely have been like Palestinians at some point, but I don't know what Israeli Jews are like.

From Huffington Post:

The situation in the West Bank settlement of Immanuel exposes the deeply complex ethno-religious relations between European Jews and Middle Eastern Jews in Israel. Middle Eastern Jews have for many decades lived as stigmatized citizens of Israel; their traditional Arabic culture and form of Jewish religiosity frequently objects of scorn and prejudice.

Less obvious than the second-class status of Sephardim in Israel has been the gradual assimilation of Sephardic Jews into the dominant Ashkenazi collective. In spite of the fact that Sephardim comprise a substantial percentage of the Israeli Jewish population, in socio-cultural terms they find themselves in a subservient position vis-à-vis the Ashkenazim.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-..._b_615692.html

But I think in the long run, the differences between the Arab and non-Arab Jews will be ameliorated at the expense of the Arab traditions of the Jews, so this will actually create greater differences between the Palestinians and Jews in Israel.

I wonder, how would you compare this with Muslim immigrants in the EU? What are the factors affecting assimilation and integration there, specifically?

[Gustav]

easy......



some commonalities...in the name of barbarism, we stand united

In 2001, Sweden enacted a law allowing only persons certified by the National Board of Health to circumcise infants. It requires a medical doctor or an anesthesia nurse to accompany the circumciser and for anaesthetic to be applied beforehand. After the first two months of life circumcisions can only be performed by a physician. The stated purpose of the law was to increase the safety of the procedure.

Swedish Jews and Muslims objected to the law,and in 2001, the World Jewish Congress stated that it was "the first legal restriction on Jewish religious practice in Europe since the Nazi era (wikishit)

ummm
anyone seen godwin around?
england seems to be a bit more open to a dialogue than the "nazi" nordics...

Widely known as one of the most intellectual of the 1,400-year-old line of archbishops, Williams is a poet who was once arrested at a nuclear weapons protest. He has been deeply critical of the war in Iraq, outspoken about making religion relevant to thinking believers and eager to build bridges with the other religious communities that form an integral part of the British population.

He stepped into the Sharia debate with open eyes in a widely publicized lecture Thursday night at the Royal Courts of Justice, and a lengthy interview with the BBC, in which he argued that the traditions of other religious communities often have a foothold in law, while Muslims may be forced into conflict between their traditions and the law of the land.

"If what we want socially is a pattern of relations in which a plurality of diverse and overlapping affiliations work for a common good, and in which groups of serious and profound conviction are not systematically faced with the stark alternatives of cultural loyalty or state loyalty, it seems unavoidable," he said in his speech before about 1,000 people, mostly lawyers.

"We have Orthodox Jewish courts operating in this country legally and in a regulated way because there are modes of dispute resolution and customary provisions which apply there in the light of Talmud," he said.

"It's not a new problem, not to mention the questions . . . about how the consciences of Catholics, Anglicans and others who have difficulty over issues like abortion are accommodated within the law; so the whole idea that there are perfectly proper ways in which the law of the land pays respect to custom and community, that's already there."

The archbishop emphasized that he was not proposing to open the door to laws allowing women to be forced into marriage or stoned if they commit adultery.

"Nobody in their right mind, I think, would want to see in this country a kind of inhumanity that sometimes appears to be associated with the practice of the law in some Islamic states -- the extreme punishments, the attitudes to women as well," he said.

http://www.nevilleawards.com/multiculti3.shtml

now...
if halakha...then sharia
some draw distinctions, others do not. i for one, troll that i am, see this.....

The state of the nation is such that not a single registered mullah in the city of Lahore with its 13 million people was willing to read Taseer's funeral prayers, because they were too scared to do so.

Five hundred lawyers have signed up to defend Taseer's killer Mumtaz Qadri, but Taseer's wife cannot find a single criminal lawyer to prosecute him. It is hard to see which judge is even likely to pursue the case to its obvious conclusion.

Meanwhile Qadri is making YouTube videos from jail of himself singing Islamic hymns and over 70 pages on Facebook have appeared in his support (and thankfully been pulled down rapidly by Facebook Inc).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...recipice/print
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-01-07/w...ws?_s=PM:WORLD

why would it be any different in europe? is this what you want for us, sam?

Allah Almighty Himself is the Guardian of dignity of His beloved Prophet (SAW), so He does not wait for any worldy court or justice system, and immediately arranges execution some times by Ghazi Ilam Din Shaheed and some times by Ghazi Mumtaz Qadri. ..Allah O Akbar.

Islamic Republic of Pakistan should release Ghazi Malik Mumtaz Qadri and make him Governor of Punjab.

Malik Mumtaz Qadri done a tremendous job. May ALLAH GIVE A BEST REWARD.

He is the true Muslim Hero... we love u brother..

Those who do not respect our Beloved Prophet do not have any resepct and those who support such dis-respected people directly or indirectly do not deserve any resepct either.

[S.A.M.]

why would it be any different in europe? is this what you want for us, sam?

Maybe I'm missing the point here. Are you saying it is easier for Muslim immigrants to assimilate in Europe than it is for Israeli Jews to assimilate with Palestinians?

if halakha...then sharia

Iran is the only country besides Israel which presently has sharia courts [India has family laws based on sharia as well but no official sharia courts]. Pakistan has a civil jurisprudence.

[Gustav]

Maybe I'm missing the point here.

perhaps

What are the factors affecting assimilation and integration there, specifically?

i respond to that with an opinion based on whatnot

Iran is the only country besides Israel which presently has sharia courts [India has family laws based on sharia as well but no official sharia courts]. Pakistan has a civil jurisprudence.

and yes, my reference to sharia in western nations involved civil matters

These halakha courts are already functioning within the legal system of the U.S. Jewish divorce cases are sometimes handled by the Beth Din of America, the Jewish Religious Court who can issue a Get or Jewish permission for divorce. “Under American law the procedures and rulings of Jewish law courts are treated just as any other produced by a legal arbitration hearing.” The Beth Din of America issues statements on ethical issues such as stem cell research. There is a site where Halachic forms can be downloaded (e.g. Living will, financial forms, pre-nuptial agreements).

There are sometimes differences between religious and constitutional law as for example the difference in American law and halakha law on the subject of self incrimination. In such cases the American legal system would ignore the rulings of the religious courts.

For a Jewish court’s arbitration to be binding in the U.S. the parties involved must sign a binding arbitration agreement.

http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam...ration_courts/

[S.A.M.]

perhaps



i respond to that with an opinion based on whatnot
nothing specific, nothing asserted to be factual

Opinion is nice, but facts are better. I'm trying to uphold the scientific method here

What makes integration possible? What would you consider an integrated society? What would a disintegrating society look like?

and yes, my reference to sharia in western nations involved civil matters

Personally I see no problem having a variety of civil courts, as long as there is protection of basic human rights for all.

[Gustav]

Personally I see no problem having a variety of civil courts......

i suppose

...as long as there is protection of basic human rights for all.

goodbye sam
goodbye sci
mom dad i love you

[S.A.M.]

Oh please!

I'm referring to stuff like this:

Avigdor Lieberman, current Foreign Minister and Deputy Prime Minister, recently called for the transfer [read: forcible expulsion] of Palestinians from Israel to neighbouring Arab states. It was a shocking development, but a suggestion that is highly popular. In fact, a 2004 study by Haifa University found 64 per cent of Jewish Israelis support “encouraging” Palestinians to leave.

Residency and citizenship

There is a sharp divide between the “Israeli citizen” and those who are part of the “Jewish nation”. On their ID cards, Palestinians have “Arab” stamped as their nationality, rather than “Israeli”. This, combined with 30 laws that favour Jewish citizens, creates a segregated system in which Palestinians are not part of the “nation” but are instead second-class citizens.

There is also the “Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law.” This makes Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza ineligible for automatic citizenship gained through marriage to an Israeli. It results in the separation of families. On the other hand, it is easy for anyone with Jewish ancestry to get Israeli citizenship thanks to the Law of Return. This law states “every Jew has the right to come to this country.”

Parliamentary democracy and representation

Palestinian citizens of Israel may vote. However, running in elections is difficult. In January 2009, the Israeli Central Election Committee banned the National Democratic Assembly (NDA) and the United Arab List from running in the elections. These are the only two Palestinian parties that have seats in the Knesset and call for equality for all citizens of Israel.

They were banned because they “did not recognise Israel’s existence as a Jewish and democratic state.” Although the ban was later overturned by the Israeli High Court, it shows how difficult it is for there to be a Palestinian voice in the Knesset.

The harassment does not end there. On April 24, NDA member Omar Said was arrested, accused of spying and having “contact with a foreign agent”. On May 6, Ameer Makhoul was arrested on similar charges. Makhoul is General Director of Ittijah (Union of Arab Community-Based Associations, a network for Palestinian NGOs) and chair of the Public Committee for the Defence of Political Freedom within the Arab Higher Monitoring Committee in Israel.

They were denied access to lawyers and there was a gag on their cases, making it impossible to find out what they’d been arrested for. At the same time, opposition party Kadima was pushing the “Associations Law (Amendment – Exceptions to the Registration and Activity of an Association)”.

This law seeks to ban any organisation “which is involved in activity intended to lead to the prosecution or arrest of IDF [Israeli Defence Force] officers and government officials for war crimes.” This is clearly designed to silence any internal criticism of Israel.

Read on for Education, Health, Land and Housing, Unrecognised villages, Expression of culture, etc

http://www.sa.org.au/palestine/2758-...aeli-democracy

Or this [since this is closer to home]

A bizarre federal programme, Operation Streamline, helps to pump federal money into the local economy: desperate migrants serve as commodities; 75 of them are marched in chains into a federal courtroom in Tucson each day, compelled to plead guilty en masse to entering the country, then transported to a corporate-owned prison in rural Pinal County before being deported on private charter flights. Several prisoners have died in the jail, including one who was apparently refused treatment while writhing in pain with testicular cancer. But incarcerating Mexican migrants has brought 1,500 new jobs to the previously depressed area, making it one of Money Magazine's top employment growth sites. (The programme costs American taxpayers $11m a month.)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...nts-judge-roll

[Gustav]

I'm referring to stuff like this

perhaps but my love and abject devotion to the scientific method constrains me....

I wonder, how would you compare this with Muslim immigrants in the EU? What are the factors affecting assimilation and integration there, specifically?

see? "there". as "in the eu"

What makes integration possible? What would you consider an integrated society? What would a disintegrating society look like?

*an adherence to the scientific method and logic
*one that adheres to the above
*one that does not

shall we now discuss circumcision and cartoons? other issues facing muslim immigrants in western lands? within the constraints of an integrated society?

Or this [since this is closer to home]

lets wait till page 12 for that shit

[Stryder]

In what way would you consider them to be different kinds of integration? In case of a one state solution, would it be easier for Israeli Jews to integrate with Palestinians than it is for Muslim immigrants to integrate with the Swedes?

Here's one perspective, The Jewish faith to my knowledge is based on, in and around that particular territory. Obviously they probably would have initially integrated with the Palestinians in that territory however due to the holocaust it was likely their decision to not integrate again due to the persecution they suffered at the hand of the Nazi's. (I guess a preventative measure to stop history repeating itself).

This of course backfired because it just drove the indigenous people to despise them "...for claiming Palestinian land their own"

Now we look to Muslim's flocking to Sweden. Understandably a majority of Muslim's just want to go somewhere to perhaps lead a better life, perhaps escaping poverty, escaping power struggles or hard-line extremism. Obviously they haven't been issued a state, Sweden has not been split to give them their own country, in essence I believe Sweden's expectation is like that of many other western nations, the assumption that Muslim except that they are there to be assimilated by that state not to recondition it within their own image. (Of course this doesn't rule out that they can be apart of the citizenry and over years of re-pour can't alter how the country is seen. In fact again this is the main reason why mosque's exist in Western cultures because those that assimilated were initially subtle as apposed to "in-your-face hardliner".)

The problem occurs however that some of the youth and people seem to be impatient, they want to see their way adopted by their adopting country and this itself causes abrasion.

That is the difference between the two view points, one had (past tense) a displaced patronage with no country to patron over them, while the other has tens if not hundreds of countries with that particular faith but they choose to patronise in countries that don't adhere to their religious rule and then they get upset when that country doesn't want to bend to their whim.

[iceaura]

Fact: Eh? Most Jews are atheists and don't believe in God. There are no atheist Muslims/Christians in Palestine. Besides, the Jewish religion is based on race

Oh baloney. Most Jews are theists, and there are many atheistic Muslims and Christians wherever there are educated, literate Muslims and Christians - Palestine is not a backwater, uneducated place. The Jewish religion is not based on race (your easy adoption of Nazi propaganda themes is common among Muslims in their discussions of Jewry generally, I've noticed), and I know three marital converts to Judaism from northern Eurpean white racial stock myself - there are also black Jews, some yellow.

The Palestinians want a secular state with equal civil rights for all citizens,

No they don't. They want an Islamic State, with toleration of a couple of related religions as subsidiary and deep intolerance for a host of other religions and areligious types.

Personally I see no problem having a variety of civil courts......

They immediately make equal protection under the law impossible.

[pjdude1219]

No they don't. They want an Islamic State, with toleration of a couple of related religions as subsidiary and deep intolerance for a host of other religions and areligious types.

untrue

that is the way Israel has painted them and that line is for the most part the only one readily available in the west but it is false. the reason Hamas won the election had nothing to do with their heave religious message and everything to do with Fatah's corruption. Most palestinians simply want their legal rights. or have you forgotten about the christian palestinians?

[S.A.M.]

Here's one perspective, The Jewish faith to my knowledge is based on, in and around that particular territory.

So is Zoroastrianism, Pharoism, Christianity and Islam, probably many Sumerian and Babylonian religions as well as Assyrian, Greek and Mediterranean ones as well

Obviously they probably would have initially integrated with the Palestinians in that territory however due to the holocaust it was likely their decision to not integrate again due to the persecution they suffered at the hand of the Nazi's. (I guess a preventative measure to stop history repeating itself).

You mean Jews in India, Russia, Yemen etc were waiting for the European Holocaust to return to Jerusalem? What do you think of the Jewish "aliyahs" who preceded Nazism ie in the 1880s and organised militias against the Arabs?

e.g. the Irgun founded by a Russian Zionist Ze'v Jabotinsky who came to Palestine in 1914 and formed an armed paramilitary organisation called the Jewish Legion followed by its devolution into the terrorist organisation called Irgun.

The Irgun policy was based on what was then called Revisionist Zionism founded by Ze'ev Jabotinsky. According to Howard Sachar, "The policy of the new organization was based squarely on Jabotinsky's teachings: every Jew had the right to enter Palestine; only active retaliation would deter the Arabs; only Jewish armed force would ensure the Jewish state".[2]

Why do you think these Russian Jews decided to dispossess the Palestinians? Jabotinsky btw was an atheist so it couldn't have been for any fictional temple or mythical Messiah.

This of course backfired because it just drove the indigenous people to despise them "...for claiming Palestinian land their own"

Hardly surprising since no one welcomes anyone who comes with the intent to kill or dispossess.

Now we look to Muslim's flocking to Sweden. Understandably a majority of Muslim's just want to go somewhere to perhaps lead a better life, perhaps escaping poverty, escaping power struggles or hard-line extremism. Obviously they haven't been issued a state, Sweden has not been split to give them their own country, in essence I believe Sweden's expectation is like that of many other western nations, the assumption that Muslim except that they are there to be assimilated by that state not to recondition it within their own image. (Of course this doesn't rule out that they can be apart of the citizenry and over years of re-pour can't alter how the country is seen. In fact again this is the main reason why mosque's exist in Western cultures because those that assimilated were initially subtle as apposed to "in-your-face hardliner".)

Is that why churches also exist in the west? Because the initial Christians were subtle? How about synagogues? Were they subtly installed as well? I bet Europe has some subtle Hindu temples and Buddhist pagodas too.

The problem occurs however that some of the youth and people seem to be impatient, they want to see their way adopted by their adopting country and this itself causes abrasion.

You mean they behave like first and second generation immigrants instead of like native residents? How odd.

That is the difference between the two view points, one had (past tense) a displaced patronage with no country to patron over them, while the other has tens if not hundreds of countries with that particular faith but they choose to patronise in countries that don't adhere to their religious rule and then they get upset when that country doesn't want to bend to their whim.

Do you think countries are established by religious adherence? Or are you suggesting they should be? Is it possible for Jews to live in non-Jewish countries without "patronage" or should they establish a Jewish state wherever they want to settle?

Oh baloney. Most Jews are theists, and there are many atheistic Muslims and Christians wherever there are educated, literate Muslims and Christians - Palestine is not a backwater, uneducated place.

Don't be silly. Either they are Muslims or Christians or they are atheists. Unlike Jews, there is no matrilineal descent to provide religious denomination by blood.

I disagree that most Jews are theists. I think most Jews are secular or atheist with perhaps a greater concentration of the ultra orthodox haredim in places like Israel and some parts of the US - perhaps because being haredi is a full time occupation and too expensive where state welfare does not provide for study.

The Jewish religion is not based on race (your easy adoption of Nazi propaganda themes is common among Muslims in their discussions of Jewry generally, I've noticed), and I know three marital converts to Judaism from northern Eurpean white racial stock myself - there are also black Jews, some yellow.

The Jewish religion is based on race. It is based entirely on matrilineal descent according to Halacha. This is so strictly enforced that half Jews are not buried in Jewish cemeteries.

No they don't. They want an Islamic State, with toleration of a couple of related religions as subsidiary and deep intolerance for a host of other religions and areligious types.

Well if they want that then by the example of the Israelis they are certainly entitled to it. After all, its the decision of the people themselves if they want a democratic government or a theocratic one. Regardless, whatever their internal conspiracies official proposals for a Palestinian state have always proposed a state for all Palestinians with offers of citizenship for Jewish settlers within the borders.

They immediately make equal protection under the law impossible.

We have various civil laws in India and they work well enough that we do not have to employ Communication Management Units to contain the devout. Law after all is only as good as the tyrant wielding it.

[iceaura]

Don't be silly. Either they are Muslims or Christians or they are atheists.

You'll have to take that up with them. I lean toward taking the believer's word for their status, especially in cases - such as the Muslims in many places including, apparently, Palestine - in which apostasy or blasphemy or the like have serious consequences, and religions are assigned by family, tribe, etc.

Unlike Jews, there is no matrilineal descent to provide religious denomination by blood.

Your adoption of racial designation for Jews is typical of the Muslims here - and rather striking. The connotations, in Western history, are ugly.

I disagree that most Jews are theists. I think most Jews are secular or atheist -

Your "thinking" on the matter of other people's theistic beliefs you know little about has a poor track record in the areas I can personally check.

The problem occurs however that some of the youth and people seem to be impatient, they want to see their way adopted by their adopting country and this itself causes abrasion.
”
You mean they behave like first and second generation immigrants instead of like native residents?

No. The opposite was meant, pretty clearly.

No they don't. They want an Islamic State, with toleration of a couple of related religions as subsidiary and deep intolerance for a host of other religions and areligious types.
”
Well if they want that then by the example of the Israelis they are certainly entitled to it

That doesn't improve the prospect of it. It's an ugly little world.

They immediately make equal protection under the law impossible.
”
We have various civil laws in India and they work well enough that we do not have to employ Communication Management Units to contain the devout.

There are a variety of ways to violate equal protection under the law. I'm not proud of the US ones.

[S.A.M.]

I think those are circular arguments already dealt with ad nauseum before.

Perhaps you have something to add to Lucy's premise that there is more in common between Jews and Palestinians than Muslim immigrants and Swedes

Perhaps you could also comment on this article she linked: http://www.commongroundnews.org/arti...=en&sid=0&sp=0

[DanceAndExplode]

I think this is the solution to all the problems they seem to be having over there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6qA-4PWdsg

[S.A.M.]

I think this is the solution to all the problems they seem to be having over there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6qA-4PWdsg

I think you'll find that not only do Israeli Jews eat pigs, but so do Palestinians who are Christian or Armenians.

But its a good sentiment