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Thread: Argentina, Brazil recognize Palestine; Israel miffed

  1. #61
    troaty mouth best song ever pjdude1219's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fedr808 View Post
    You do realize that chances are the economic downturn is far from a demise. Of course not you bigot.

    You do realize that Israel could easily sustain itself. Especially with those new natural gas wells for a loooong time. Of course not you bigot.

    You do realize that the EU is starting to have to support bankrupted countries and issue massive bailouts for countries that are in incredible economic collapse. Of course not you bigot.

    The fact that the Arabic population is skyrocketing is only because they realize that the Israelis have improved the life of Arabs in Israel dramatically in sixty years from the desert it was before, and that they consider the price of some amount of prejudice for what it arguably the most modernized country in the middle east to be well worth it.
    pretend the jews made the desert bloom of course you believe this your a bigot. see others can do it too.
    if Israel can sustain its self why doesn't???? its the most modernized because it didn't have to spend the money get there. if you give an equal percentage wise money to one of the arab countries around Israel and I garnentee it would be in the same level of modernity. ISrael weather you want it or not exist as the economic and military power it is today because of foriegn funding

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawDog View Post
    Think FW De Klerk & Gorbachev.
    I am. Those are both examples of leaders of polities whose power had already failed. Neither did anything to break down such power as such - they simply accepted the situation dealt to them and responded as best they could.

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawDog View Post
    Israel is a total infant in the grand scheme of nations.
    Not really. Jewish nationality is at least as old as most of the other sorts (and in particular the Arab varieties). Depending on how you define it, Jewish nationality would actually be among the oldest nationalities still extant (been around for literally thousands of years).

    Unless you meant to say "grand scheme of states," but, again, there's no shortage of states of comparable or newer vintage.

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawDog View Post
    Compared to the longevity of other nations that have been around for centuries.
    You are confusing national mythologies for reality. Nationalism is a relatively new phenomenon, and most present-day nationalities are not particularly old as such (the ethnicities that they base themselves on, and attempt to subsume, are a different story). A great many of the nations of the world didn't exist as such before the 20th century, and almost none before the 19th century. The only major nationalities that can credibly claim earlier vintage (late 18th century) are American and French.

    I'd again suggest that you're thinking of states, but they tend to be even younger. So you must be thinking of ethnicity, or just plain mythology, or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawDog View Post
    I am referring to confronting and addressing theft, embracing restitution and the end of apartheid.
    Right: power.

  3. #63
    Caput gerat lupinum GeoffP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawDog View Post
    Right. So what then are the gripes of these entities? Theft? Rape? Destruction? So thus ... address the root cause of said gripes and you may yet have friendship no?
    Well, much of the contention appears to be the very existence of a Jewish nation in that area. There is - yes - the issue of the treatment of Arabs and of border conflicts with those nations, but again much of it seems to be the result of the very existence of Israel. Israel is missing on some maps of that region, and I don't believe human rights violations are the reason for this oversight; unless the map-makers and their paymasters are more than a little biased, given the existence of the same range of violations worldwide? Does North Korea exist on such maps? China? The United States?

    Generally, outside Israel, Christian or other minorities in Muslim nations are not via state sanction, systematically ghettoized, starved and separated from the general population.
    Except in Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey, the Sudan, and others. I apologize if I've missed any.

    The IDF guarantees that Jews and Jewish Settlers can hate, be intolerant and get away with acts of violence against Palestinians. The Palestinians do not have that luxury.
    I don't know that the IDF actually "guarantees" that luxury. I know that security forces in Egypt do indeed guarantee - and even participate - in violence against Christians.

    If all the inhabitants of the land you see on the map as "Israel", were afforded the same human rights and recourse to the law and protection of the law, how do you think intolerance would play out?
    Well, I think intolerance would not play out in such a scenario as you envision...but of course, this is not the absolute case in Israel, nor in any of the nations diametrically opposed to its existence, and so it does not strike me as a very realistic scenario. The Copts could probably supply you with their own not-unique experiences of the supposed protections of 'universal' human rights in a secular-cum-Islamic state such as the one being proposed here. I think, as I have always done, that two-state is the only reasonable solution. In short, it is of importance to consider who will dispense law and protection; religious minorities in Indonesia could supply in turn their experiences of such idealized constitutional protection in name but not in fact.

    Goodness friend GeoffP ... Islamophobe much?
    Goodness, friend Strawdog! Hyperbolize much? I regret that I am merely a humble observer of the facts. It is not my fault if they are not to everyone's liking.

    And I utterly disagree with you. With the mix of skills and a constitutionally enshrined secular state, one could have an economic powerhouse.
    I agree that anything in theory is possible: it's just that no religious minority fares particularly well in an Islamic state, so that whatever the economic outcome, it is unlikely to be matched by equal advances or protections in social welfare. It is all well that you suppose that a secular state could be great, but it isn't reasonable to think that such an amalgam would indeed be secular. To illustrate: you're very adept at pointing at Israeli departures from secularist ideas. You have perhaps noticed similar trends in Islamic nations, no?

  4. #64
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quadraphonics View Post


    Not really. Jewish nationality is at least as old as most of the other sorts (and in particular the Arab varieties). Depending on how you define it, Jewish nationality would actually be among the oldest nationalities still extant (been around for literally thousands of years).

    Unless you meant to say "grand scheme of states," but, again, there's no shortage of states of comparable or newer vintage.



    You are confusing national mythologies for reality. Nationalism is a relatively new phenomenon, and most present-day nationalities are not particularly old as such (the ethnicities that they base themselves on, and attempt to subsume, are a different story). A great many of the nations of the world didn't exist as such before the 20th century, and almost none before the 19th century. The only major nationalities that can credibly claim earlier vintage (late 18th century) are American and French.


    .
    What a very bizarre assertion, considering the term Jew is much younger than the term Hindu or Iranian and nonexistent before the 18th century. If we go by ethnicity = nation, then almost everyone with a state today has Judaism beat as a nation. And if we go by religion = nation then both the Vedas and Avesta predate Judaism. Even if we go by "bunch of people with common beliefs about nationhood" = nation then the Pashtuns, Parsis, Syrian Christians, Copts, Kurds, Romanis etc predate the "Jewish" nation
    I'd again suggest that you're thinking of states, but they tend to be even younger. So you must be thinking of ethnicity, or just plain mythology, or something.
    How about narrative?

    I'd say much of the "history" of the Jewish nation is just narrative, created for the purpose of establishing a modern state, neither myth nor race nor religion. I recommend "The Invention of the Jewish People" by Shlomo Sand as a look at the colourful history of the Jewish nation. Its not entirely objective having a political bent, but its a good start. We already know of the havoc that archaeology has played with the "chronology" of the Hebrew Bible - the lack of any evidence of the Jewish nation as claimed by the present day "nation" of Israel is evidence of the role of narrative in this "chronology". Even if we take the Bible as sacred truth, its only in the book of Ezra, when the Persian courtier preached monotheism to the exiled Judeans - separating the Pharisees [Parsis?] from the Sadducees who did not believe in the ideologies that pass for Judaism today - that we come across any "nation" of a bunch of immigrants who pick up religious notions from their rulers under exile - none of which is supported by any archaeological or historical evidence.

    Sand on the other hand, traces the claim of the Jewish people as a nation from the 1880s, when scholars like Heinrich Graetz described the work of Julius Wellhausen, the father of modern Biblical Criticism, as anti-Jewish
    Last edited by S.A.M.; 01-06-11 at 02:26 AM.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by fedr808 View Post
    You do realize that chances are the economic downturn is far from a demise. Of course not you bigot.

    You do realize that Israel could easily sustain itself. Especially with those new natural gas wells for a loooong time. Of course not you bigot.

    You do realize that the EU is starting to have to support bankrupted countries and issue massive bailouts for countries that are in incredible economic collapse. Of course not you bigot.

    The fact that the Arabic population is skyrocketing is only because they realize that the Israelis have improved the life of Arabs in Israel dramatically in sixty years from the desert it was before, and that they consider the price of some amount of prejudice for what it arguably the most modernized country in the middle east to be well worth it.
    If Israel can sustain itself so well with the Palestinians natural gas wells, why doesn't it instead of leaching billions of dollars from the US taxpayers?

    As for how the Israelis have improved the life of Arabs "dramatically".. And what an improvement!

    Look at their lives and how they lived then and look at it now! This is the "improved" life that Israel brought them. All I can say to that is wow! The cost of the Israeli version of modernity is death. But in your view, they should deem it an improvement? Ah but of course, Israelis are very concerned about the Arabic birthrates..

    Congratulations Fed! You have just given the same pathetic and lame excuses that all supporters of genocide give.. Bigot!

  6. #66
    Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle CptBork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bells View Post
    As for how the Israelis have improved the life of Arabs "dramatically".. And what an improvement!

    Look at their lives and how they lived then and look at it now! This is the "improved" life that Israel brought them.
    That's an incredibly weak argument. I could show pictures of nice cities and scenery from pre-war NAZI Germany and then contrast that with the rubble of Berlin immediately after. Would you take that as an argument that we shouldn't have stopped them? I agree the Palestinians have suffered over the last 60 years, but I don't think your contrast does anyone real justice. Would also be nice to see you go after SAM and her attempts to depict Israel as a post-Christian, post-Islamic fictional European creation the same way you're attacking Fedr here.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Foley View Post
    I think we have to be realistic and accept that demographics will play out the end in Israel.
    I think we have to be realistic and accept that the Jewish demographic will neither be wiped out nor subjugated by Islamic bullies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Foley View Post
    Originally the idea was that in 1948 the displaced Palestinians that had fled into Jordan would in a matter of 2 generations forget their origins and become Jordanians, it hasnt worked out that way.
    Well Israel had no trouble accepting the displaced Jews fleeing the Islamic world, I fail to see why the Arabs have failed so miserably to do the same for their Palestinian vanguard, despite having literally 100 times the territory and treasure at their disposal. And you just blink at that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Foley View Post
    Me personally I see a point in time when Jews will become like Mid East Christian minorities, and all this past expence and war will be for nothing.
    I.e. they should just give up and accept their extermination with grace? I must need laser eye correction, did you have a successful model of a growing and thriving mideast Christian minority you wanted to point out and I somehow missed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Foley View Post
    With Americas economic demise, Israel benefactor and protector, that is the first nail in the coffin lid, second is the clear emergence of Iran in the region with the EU wanting to make that Iran a client state. It wont be long before Israel resembles fractured Lebanon.
    Last I checked, America still leads the world in GDP by a substantial longshot. Indeed, if China wanted to come even close to what the US produces every year, well, with the way they manage their economy and power supplies, there ain't even enough oil on the planet to fuel it. Iran is only a threat because it's viewed as possibly suicidal, and Israel (along with the Palestinians) are particularly vulnerable even to a small scale Iranian atomic attack, given their tiny geography. You seem pretty hopeful the US will completely fall apart in your lifetime. Do you go even further and advocate that a thorough mutually-destructive war in the Middle East is preferable to a 2 state solution?

    Israel might yet screw itself down the road by alienating the US, but otherwise, if it shows a willingness to make reasonable compromises, Muslims don't stand a chance of overrunning it, they're still waiting for a sky fairy to come down and solve their problems for them.

  8. #68
    Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle CptBork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjdude1219 View Post
    horse shit christians killed of hundreds of cultures and societies.
    I doubt you could even name 50, much less several hundred.

    Quote Originally Posted by pjdude1219 View Post
    christians killed of hundreds possible thousands of cultures in the americas and sub saharran africa their literally are enough remaining cultures for islam to catch up.
    I could see how you'd think that way, given your very selective definition of who and what constitutes a culture. I will admit as far as South America was concerned, my statement was with regards to territory snatched in wars where Christians and Muslims were mutually involved. If the Islamic world had known the Earth was round and had sent its ships westward in the times of Columbus or earlier, I don't know what would have happened. As it was, South America came under a wave of infectious diseases which did far more damage than what the small number of colonists could ever hope to do by intent. And in the end, I ask who do the majority of South Americans racially identify with today? They speak Spanish and their superstitions are now focussed on Catholicism, but they remember who they were and if they didn't, I wouldn't be hearing their gripes through you every time you find them convenient to use for a completely different cause.

    As for Africa, my understanding is that when it came to slave purchases, Americans and Europeans were buying from Muslims, I've never read anything about substantial slave trading in the other direction. On that note, I am grateful to fate that the South Sudanese have finally won the opportunity to declare their independence from the Arab colonists who've raped them for centuries and nearly wiped them out altogether in recent times.

    Quote Originally Posted by pjdude1219 View Post
    top say Islam out did christianity in its first 200 years than what christianity did in its history is a falsehood bordering on slanderous propaganda
    I qualified that statement, did I not? Maybe I should have said 400 years so I could include the massacres committed by the Ghaznavids and their ilk in India. Claiming the Islamic world to be a victim and never an aggressor or oppressor is what truly borders on slanderous propaganda.

  9. #69
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    Would also be nice to see you go after SAM and her attempts to depict Israel as a post-Christian, post-Islamic fictional European creation the same way you're attacking Fedr here.
    I'll be happy to see whatever evidence you have to refute the same. If you like we can create a thread on the topic. I've been reading on the influences of Zoroastrianism on Judaism and it would be great to hear other opinions on the topic - mythology aside, if you have any evidence of an Israel which is not post-Christian or post-Islamic and not of European creation, I'd most certainly love to see it.
    Last edited by S.A.M.; 01-06-11 at 05:03 AM.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by CptBork View Post
    That's an incredibly weak argument. I could show pictures of nice cities and scenery from pre-war NAZI Germany and then contrast that with the rubble of Berlin immediately after. Would you take that as an argument that we shouldn't have stopped them? I agree the Palestinians have suffered over the last 60 years, but I don't think your contrast does anyone real justice.
    The contrast was in response to the ridiculous argument put forward by Fed that Israel apparently improved the life of Arabs living in Israel. If you're into being killed and into being the victim of an active genocide, then yeah, I guess you could consider it an improvement. Otherwise it was a dumbarse argument.

    Would also be nice to see you go after SAM and her attempts to depict Israel as a post-Christian, post-Islamic fictional European creation the same way you're attacking Fedr here.
    And Israel was created by....?

    The toothfairy?

    I know! The Goblins!

    Can't trust those Goblins..


    As for Africa, my understanding is that when it came to slave purchases, Americans and Europeans were buying from Muslims, I've never read anything about substantial slave trading in the other direction.


    Ermm no..

    Didn't you do any of this in primary school history classes when you were at school?

  11. #71
    Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle CptBork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bells View Post
    The contrast was in response to the ridiculous argument put forward by Fed that Israel apparently improved the life of Arabs living in Israel. If you're into being killed and into being the victim of an active genocide, then yeah, I guess you could consider it an improvement. Otherwise it was a dumbarse argument.
    What about when a Muslim speaks fondly of the golden age of "spreading Islam"? How does that rub you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bells View Post
    And Israel was created by....?
    The UN, with assistance from the people who tried to outright exterminate it. And the same will be true for the remaining claimants to the Ottoman province of Palestine, if they accept an independent state. Going prior to that, there was a great deal of Jewish history in that land from the ancient eras and from modern eras alike. I don't see a reason why the mass immigration of Holocaust survivors to Israel should delegitimize it, given that this immigration was into largely unused territory (mostly in the lands of the originally-proposed 1947 partition) which already passed through the hands of multiple empires. If it were an excuse to delegitimize Israel's existence, you could use more extreme examples from history to delegitimize a great deal of the Muslim world too. Muslims control 99% of the territory in the middle east yet this cocky 1% called "Israel" occupies their minds like a mental obsession. You don't find such trends seriously disturbing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bells View Post
    The toothfairy?

    I know! The Goblins!

    Can't trust those Goblins..
    Not far off from the prevalent attitude in the middle east. To prove Israel wasn't created by goblins, do you think Israel should hand itself off wholesale to the people who make such accusations?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bells View Post


    Ermm no..

    Didn't you do any of this in primary school history classes when you were at school?
    Did you read the article? Did you note the mentions that Europe didn't have much of a presence in the interior of Africa until the late 19th century at best, when Britain and its navy had already banned the slave trade? Prior to then, Europe simply didn't have the resources or population to barge into the African interior without strong local assistance. Most of the slaves Americans bought were first captured in warfare between rival African kingdoms, warfare with Muslim nations in the region, and local mercenaries. My question was whether anyone could find solid evidence of Americans and Europeans going out, capturing slaves and then selling them to Islamic countries.
    Last edited by CptBork; 01-06-11 at 10:27 AM.

  12. #72
    disseminated primatemaia StrawDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quadraphonics View Post
    I am. Those are both examples of leaders of polities whose power had already failed. Neither did anything to break down such power as such -
    No. In fact they both countered and overcame massive resistance from within the existing power cabal. Conversely they both enjoyed massive public support in their initiatives.
    they simply accepted the situation dealt to them and responded as best they could.
    IMO they were luminaries who could see further down the road than their contemporaries. They dowsed the flames preventing the looming inferno. Both bloodless achievements.
    Not really. Jewish nationality is at least as old as most of the other sorts (and in particular the Arab varieties). Depending on how you define it, Jewish nationality would actually be among the oldest nationalities still extant (been around for literally thousands of years).
    Hm. But not as a single State eh? Thats kinda brand new.
    Unless you meant to say "grand scheme of states," but, again, there's no shortage of states of comparable or newer vintage.
    Of course, but we are not discussing them.
    You are confusing national mythologies for reality. Nationalism is a relatively new phenomenon, and most present-day nationalities are not particularly old as such (the ethnicities that they base themselves on, and attempt to subsume, are a different story). A great many of the nations of the world didn't exist as such before the 20th century, and almost none before the 19th century. The only major nationalities that can credibly claim earlier vintage (late 18th century) are American and French.
    Persia to Iran. Ottoman Empire to Turkey. Ancient Japan to modern Japan. Ancient Egypt to modern Egypt. Same geography, same blood.
    Right: power.
    Call it what you want. We all know the wind changes direction.

  13. #73
    disseminated primatemaia StrawDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffP View Post
    Well, much of the contention appears to be the very existence of a Jewish nation in that area.
    Well ... yes. A bunch of foreigners just squatted on MY farm, thrown me out of MY house into the stable, and now they want to charge ME rent. Contentious, sure. Understandable, sure. Rectifiable? Sure.
    There is - yes - the issue of the treatment of Arabs and of border conflicts with those nations,
    So the disappointment at being treated like human flotsam may manifest as resistance no? And perhaps deep seated hate no?
    but again much of it seems to be the result of the very existence of Israel.
    Absolutely, and there are real and valid reasons for such. Not yet addressed, but surmountable if approached in good faith.
    Israel is missing on some maps of that region, and I don't believe human rights violations are the reason for this oversight; unless the map-makers and their paymasters are more than a little biased, given the existence of the same range of violations worldwide? Does North Korea exist on such maps? China? The United States?
    I know someone who was repeatedly raped by her brother as a child. He has never apologized nor attempted reconciliation. Thus she has denied/ignored his existence for 40 years now. Is she unreasonable?
    Except in Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey, the Sudan, and others. I apologize if I've missed any.
    Come on. Best you point out the equivalent of a Gaza in any of your examples.
    I don't know that the IDF actually "guarantees" that luxury. I know that security forces in Egypt do indeed guarantee - and even participate - in violence against Christians.
    This is not about Egypt. So ... how come the settlers get away with their violence against Palestinians? Why are there more than 10 000 Palestinians, men, woman and children, languishing in gaol without charge? Who guarantees that luxury?
    Goodness, friend Strawdog! Hyperbolize much? I regret that I am merely a humble observer of the facts. It is not my fault if they are not to everyone's liking.
    He he friend GeoffP. You are entitled to your opinions, and thanks for discussing them here.
    I agree that anything in theory is possible: it's just that no religious minority fares particularly well in an Islamic state, so that whatever the economic outcome, it is unlikely to be matched by equal advances or protections in social welfare.
    Thats why an integrated Israel should NOT be an Islamic state.
    It is all well that you suppose that a secular state could be great, but it isn't reasonable to think that such an amalgam would indeed be secular.
    Israel presently paints itself as a secular State, its just that they only allow adherents to a certain religion basic rights. Like the right of return, etc.
    To illustrate: you're very adept at pointing at Israeli departures from secularist ideas. You have perhaps noticed similar trends in Islamic nations, no?
    Of course I have. Thus entrench secularism in the constitution.

  14. #74
    troaty mouth best song ever pjdude1219's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffP View Post
    Well, much of the contention appears to be the very existence of a Jewish nation in that area.
    wrong no one cares that people of the jewish faith or there( or to placate the more fevorent a portion of the jewish nation). people care about the existence of a jewish state in an area where there was and should be a an arab majority.

  15. #75
    troaty mouth best song ever pjdude1219's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptBork View Post
    I doubt you could even name 50, much less several hundred.



    I could see how you'd think that way, given your very selective definition of who and what constitutes a culture. I will admit as far as South America was concerned, my statement was with regards to territory snatched in wars where Christians and Muslims were mutually involved. If the Islamic world had known the Earth was round and had sent its ships westward in the times of Columbus or earlier, I don't know what would have happened. As it was, South America came under a wave of infectious diseases which did far more damage than what the small number of colonists could ever hope to do by intent. And in the end, I ask who do the majority of South Americans racially identify with today? They speak Spanish and their superstitions are now focussed on Catholicism, but they remember who they were and if they didn't, I wouldn't be hearing their gripes through you every time you find them convenient to use for a completely different cause.

    As for Africa, my understanding is that when it came to slave purchases, Americans and Europeans were buying from Muslims, I've never read anything about substantial slave trading in the other direction. On that note, I am grateful to fate that the South Sudanese have finally won the opportunity to declare their independence from the Arab colonists who've raped them for centuries and nearly wiped them out altogether in recent times.



    I qualified that statement, did I not? Maybe I should have said 400 years so I could include the massacres committed by the Ghaznavids and their ilk in India. Claiming the Islamic world to be a victim and never an aggressor or oppressor is what truly borders on slanderous propaganda.
    why do I bother you always twist the definitions to make sure ISlam is the worst so you can justify your blind hatred of it.


    and I like the assualt on my objectivity that has zero basis. classy but what should I expect from someone who is willing to defend a state that was founded on terrorism and the violation of international law and principle

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by fedr808 View Post
    You do realize that chances are the economic downturn is far from a demise. Of course not you bigot.
    The US dollar has been supplanted by the Euro as the Euro zone economic region dwarves Americas, it is on its way down.
    Quote Originally Posted by fedr808 View Post
    You do realize that Israel could easily sustain itself. Especially with those new natural gas wells for a loooong time. Of course not you bigot.
    As none of Israel’s Arab neighbours trade with Israel, that in order to make up for this imbalance 33% of all Israel’s exports go to America, and another 33% of Israel’s exports goes to the EU. This subsidizing of the Israeli economy is what keeps the Israeli economy artificially afloat, without it Israel will resemble Zimbabwe.
    Quote Originally Posted by fedr808 View Post
    You do realize that the EU is starting to have to support bankrupted countries and issue massive bailouts for countries that are in incredible economic collapse. Of course not you bigot.
    Iceland and the Baltic states was not a part of the EU, the banking sysem in Europe has stabilized, the losses for the British, Dutch and Irish Banking systems have been made good, on the hand the American banking sector is falling.
    Quote Originally Posted by fedr808 View Post
    The fact that the Arabic population is skyrocketing is only because they realize that the Israelis have improved the life of Arabs in Israel dramatically in sixty years from the desert it was before, and that they consider the price of some amount of prejudice for what it arguably the most modernized country in the middle east to be well worth it.
    When America vacates the Mid East through the economic strain of this war on terror, Israel will be following it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CptBork View Post
    I think we have to be realistic and accept that the Jewish demographic will neither be wiped out nor subjugated by Islamic bullies.
    They cant stop it, 20 years and Jews will be sharing Israel with Palestinians, its as simple as that.
    Quote Originally Posted by CptBork View Post
    Well Israel had no trouble accepting the displaced Jews fleeing the Islamic world, I fail to see why the Arabs have failed so miserably to do the same for their Palestinian vanguard, despite having literally 100 times the territory and treasure at their disposal. And you just blink at that?
    I think the real reason is that Palestinians never accepted the plan that they would simply settle and absorb themselves in Jordan.
    Quote Originally Posted by CptBork View Post
    I.e. they should just give up and accept their extermination with grace? I must need laser eye correction, did you have a successful model of a growing and thriving mideast Christian minority you wanted to point out and I somehow missed?
    Just face it, as in Europe which is a Christian continent, there never was a Moslem state nor a Jewish state, it simply would not be accepted by the majority. Same is applicable to the Mid East which is a Moslem region, the Jewish State which exists does so by artificial means, outside intervention and protection.
    Quote Originally Posted by CptBork View Post
    Last I checked, America still leads the world in GDP by a substantial longshot. Indeed, if China wanted to come even close to what the US produces every year, well, with the way they manage their economy and power supplies, there ain't even enough oil on the planet to fuel it. Iran is only a threat because it's viewed as possibly suicidal, and Israel (along with the Palestinians) are particularly vulnerable even to a small scale Iranian atomic attack, given their tiny geography. You seem pretty hopeful the US will completely fall apart in your lifetime.
    Economy of the European Union 2009 = $16.447 trillion
    Economy of the United States 2009 = $14.266 trillion
    Quote Originally Posted by CptBork View Post
    Do you go even further and advocate that a thorough mutually-destructive war in the Middle East is preferable to a 2 state solution?
    The 2 state deal of the Oslo Accord of 1993 granted the Palestinians 22% of their historic nation, where the Palestinians had to agree to surrendering the remaining 78% to Israel as part of the Land-for-Peace that Oslo promised. Camp David the follow up to Oslo offered the Palestinians 91% of that 22% the concession was constantly being whittled away. So there you have it the 91% offer to Palestine was simply this: 3 separate land allotments , divested of prime agricultural real estate, diminished in water supply, surrounded by armed squatter settlements protected by Israeli troops, a human cage sealed off from its current international borders, and laden with toxic waste dumps. In other words a state destined to fail.There will not be two states as that issue is defunct, because of the 7 million Palestinians inside Israel, the Territories and outside. Israel will simply become at first a shared state, where eventually the majority will take control.
    Quote Originally Posted by CptBork View Post
    Israel might yet screw itself down the road by alienating the US, but otherwise, if it shows a willingness to make reasonable compromises, Muslims don't stand a chance of overrunning it, they're still waiting for a sky fairy to come down and solve their problems for them.
    Iran is going from strength to strength on its own, without any economic assistance, unlike Israel which needs an economic umbilical cord with the West. Iran scares the shit out of Israel, eventually Iran will become the regions powerhouse along with Turkey.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by CptBork View Post
    What about when a Muslim speaks fondly of the golden age of "spreading Islam"? How does that rub you?
    About as fondly as when Christians come and knock on my door to tell me that I need to find God and try to convert me to their religion.

    The UN, with assistance from the people who tried to outright exterminate it. And the same will be true for the remaining claimants to the Ottoman province of Palestine, if they accept an independent state. Going prior to that, there was a great deal of Jewish history in that land from the ancient eras and from modern eras alike. I don't see a reason why the mass immigration of Holocaust survivors to Israel should delegitimize it, given that this immigration was into largely unused territory (mostly in the lands of the originally-proposed 1947 partition) which already passed through the hands of multiple empires. If it were an excuse to delegitimize Israel's existence, you could use more extreme examples from history to delegitimize a great deal of the Muslim world too. Muslims control 99% of the territory in the middle east yet this cocky 1% called "Israel" occupies their minds like a mental obsession. You don't find such trends seriously disturbing?
    Without the support of Arabs. The UN at the time were reacting, and rightly so, to the horrors of the holocaust. But their zeal to give Jews their own State did not warrant or justify the horrors then inflicted on Palestinians and which continues to be inflicted to this day. Look at the reaction of Israel to countries recognising Palestine.. It is a prime example of just how wrong this whole situation is. To claim a moral argument that they are a minority in a sea of Arabs, ignoring the simple fact that they are the most well armed country in the region, the only country with Nukes and a Superpower ramming up its backside as support. You don't find the whole thing disturbing?

    Not far off from the prevalent attitude in the middle east. To prove Israel wasn't created by goblins, do you think Israel should hand itself off wholesale to the people who make such accusations?
    No. I think Israel should be held to the same standards that other countries are held to and treated the same as well instead of being pandered to like they are spoiled brats.

    Did you read the article? Did you note the mentions that Europe didn't have much of a presence in the interior of Africa until the late 19th century at best, when Britain and its navy had already banned the slave trade? Prior to then, Europe simply didn't have the resources or population to barge into the African interior without strong local assistance. Most of the slaves Americans bought were first captured in warfare between rival African kingdoms, warfare with Muslim nations in the region, and local mercenaries. My question was whether anyone could find solid evidence of Americans and Europeans going out, capturing slaves and then selling them to Islamic countries.
    Your lack of knowledge or understanding of the slave trade in Africa astounds me.

    Europeans had been trading and using Africans as slaves for centuries before it was deemed illegal by the British. It wasn't the Muslims who solely supplied the Europeans. Europeans had bases and ship yards where their boats would be sent to take captured slaves elsewhere. At first, many were caught by the whites raiding the land for goods. And then when they could no longer keep going with the practice, they offered goods to local tribal leaders and kings who then went on to raid and capture slaves and exchange to the Europeans on the coast for goods. This is just the basics of it.

    To blame Muslims for the slave trade shows a level of ignorance not often seen on this forum. Please, for the love of all that is holy, educate yourself on it before making such claims.

  18. #78
    Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle CptBork's Avatar
    Posts
    4,457
    Quote Originally Posted by Bells View Post
    Your lack of knowledge or understanding of the slave trade in Africa astounds me.

    Europeans had been trading and using Africans as slaves for centuries before it was deemed illegal by the British. It wasn't the Muslims who solely supplied the Europeans. Europeans had bases and ship yards where their boats would be sent to take captured slaves elsewhere. At first, many were caught by the whites raiding the land for goods. And then when they could no longer keep going with the practice, they offered goods to local tribal leaders and kings who then went on to raid and capture slaves and exchange to the Europeans on the coast for goods. This is just the basics of it.

    To blame Muslims for the slave trade shows a level of ignorance not often seen on this forum. Please, for the love of all that is holy, educate yourself on it before making such claims.
    I said there were 3 main factors in the capture process: mercenaries, rival African kingdoms, and Muslim countries. The Europeans and Americans simply didn't have the ability to project enough military power over those kinds of distances to penetrate the continent and capture large numbers of slaves. Pjdude said Christian nations were the worst meddlers and nation destroyers in sub-Saharan Africa, I was merely pointing out the general direction of the slave trade and the people involved in the initial pillaging. I also could have mentioned the enormous number of African slaves taken in by several countries in the Muslim world, which continues to this day. Not at all did I say Muslims were solely responsible for the African slave trade, I think you misunderstand my intent.

    Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_t...Saharan_Africa

    and

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African...-Saharan_trade

  19. #79
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
    Posts
    72,822
    So the slave trade in Africa = occupation of Palestine by European Jews because...?
    Last edited by S.A.M.; 01-07-11 at 03:39 AM.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    So the slave trade in Africa = occupation of Palestine by European Jews because...?
    It's all the Muslim's fault Sam.

    Sheesh, do try to keep up.

    And it's the Muslim's fault that the Palestinians are being killed. After all, if such a large majority of them weren't Muslims and weren't living there.. well.. it would mean they wouldn't have had to be kicked out and shoved into where they are now. Well they would be since they aren't true blooded Israelis.. ah heck, it's easier to just blame the Muslims anyway.

    I mean the Israelis are only trying to improve the lives of Arabs living there now. Did you miss the memo? You see, they should apparently be grateful that the Israelis have improved their lives so much with the occupation.

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