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Thread: Argentina, Brazil recognize Palestine; Israel miffed

  1. #41
    Caput gerat lupinum GeoffP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Foley View Post
    This 'recognition', does not recognise the Right of Return for the some 3 million Palestinians living around the Mid East. It does not recognise the Palestinian states pre 1948 border as what constitutes 'Palestine'. The only solution is the recognition of the return of all Palestinians, the dissolution of the West Bank and Gaza, bestowing on all Palestinians equal citizenship with Israelis. This way the majority people will control that nation, that is the Palestinians.
    And the Middle East may more rapidly approach that goal lauded there but not here: cultural homogeneity. Probably, but not absolutely, with a little spicy genocide humus on the side.

  2. #42
    disseminated primatemaia StrawDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffP View Post
    And the Middle East may more rapidly approach that goal lauded there but not here: cultural homogeneity. Probably, but not absolutely, with a little spicy genocide humus on the side.
    Israel cannot survive in the long term as an increasingly isolated apartheid state. Integration is the only way to secure the future of the state of Israel.

    A truth and reconciliation process leading to an inclusively determined constitution that equally protects the rights of every single citizen, regardless of race or religion, is the suggested way forward.

  3. #43
    Bloodthirsty Barbarian
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    Quote Originally Posted by countezero View Post
    If every ethnic group has a right to self-determinacy, chaos ensues and the nation state dies in favor of small tribal lands.
    More likely, what you get is a system of nation states with said nations defined in ethnic terms (along with the destruction/absorbtion of a few ethnicities not suitably situated to play such a game). This process has already been underway in many places for generations - it's a decent description of present-day Europe, for example.

    In many other places, ethnicity is not strong enough to pose any fundamental challenge to nationalism. The nation-state is a very strong political entity, once consolodated, and so it takes a lot more than a few touchy-feely affirmations of ethnic self-determination to shake a system of states with monopolies on the use of force, industrial militaries, etc.

    But this is a bit beside the point. Palestine is a nation, to begin with. What's on the table is simply the erection of yet another nation state. This would actually patch a hole in the existing system of nation-states, rather than challenge such.
    Last edited by quadraphonics; 01-04-11 at 01:52 PM.

  4. #44
    Caput gerat lupinum GeoffP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawDog View Post
    Israel cannot survive in the long term as an increasingly isolated apartheid state. Integration is the only way to secure the future of the state of Israel.
    That statement is contrary to reality, Straw. Translocation of large numbers of Palestinians would mean the destruction of Israel and the probable massacre of its people, or else (more likely) their eventual extirpation via the usual slow intolerance and religious hatred.

    A truth and reconciliation process leading to an inclusively determined constitution that equally protects the rights of every single citizen, regardless of race or religion, is the suggested way forward.
    In that regard, Israel could at its worst be said to be completely integrated with the nations of the Middle East, although in an atypical direction.

  5. #45
    disseminated primatemaia StrawDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffP View Post
    That statement is contrary to reality, Straw. Translocation of large numbers of Palestinians would mean the destruction of Israel and the probable massacre of its people, or else (more likely) their eventual extirpation via the usual slow intolerance and religious hatred.
    This can be a gradual process. Oh boy, the massacre of its people? When is the WW2 card going to be pulled from circulation? Points to consider. Religious intolerance and hatred at the moment is one sided in favour of Jewish folk. So thats OK, but a more even two sided intolerance is to be discouraged? That is the entire point of a Truth & Reconciliation process - a gradual application and integration of a rebooted value system. Naysayer.
    In that regard, Israel could at its worst be said to be completely integrated with the nations of the Middle East, although in an atypical direction.
    And why is this such a bad idea? Given the geaographical location slap bang in the ME and all.

  6. #46
    Bloodthirsty Barbarian
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawDog View Post
    Religious intolerance and hatred at the moment is one sided in favour of Jewish folk.
    No, you're thinking of "power."

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawDog View Post
    That is the entire point of a Truth & Reconciliation process - a gradual application and integration of a rebooted value system. Naysayer.
    Such a project involves destroying entire nationalities (along with their nation-states). Maybe that's worth doing, but it's not the kind of thing that's going to happen peacefully, or without resistance from the nation-states it threatens (who have things like armies).

  7. #47
    troaty mouth best song ever pjdude1219's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffP View Post
    That statement is contrary to reality, Straw. Translocation of large numbers of Palestinians would mean the destruction of Israel and the probable massacre of its people, or else (more likely) their eventual extirpation via the usual slow intolerance and religious hatred.
    people like you always claim that the palestinians getting their rights would lead to the massive violence against the jewish conquerors only problem their is zero evidence to support such an idea. maybe instead of reflecting the zionist movements and Israel's action onto its victims you could judge them by what they would actually do.

  8. #48
    disseminated primatemaia StrawDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quadraphonics View Post
    No, you're thinking of "power."
    Which is the reality that allows religious intolerance and hatred to perpetuate.
    Such a project involves destroying entire nationalities (along with their nation-states). Maybe that's worth doing, but it's not the kind of thing that's going to happen peacefully, or without resistance from the nation-states it threatens (who have things like armies).
    All it will take is one leader with courage and a sense of justice. And no, I am not yet holding my breath.

    I will say it again, without considering or pursuing this path, Israel cannot survive in the long term. Its time to address the cornerstone of the hatred, that is the only way forward.

  9. #49
    disseminated primatemaia StrawDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quadraphonics View Post
    No, you're thinking of "power."
    Which is the reality that allows religious intolerance and hatred to perpetuate.
    Such a project involves destroying entire nationalities (along with their nation-states). Maybe that's worth doing, but it's not the kind of thing that's going to happen peacefully, or without resistance from the nation-states it threatens (who have things like armies).
    All it will take is one leader with courage and a sense of justice. And no, I am not yet holding my breath.

    I will say it again, without considering or pursuing this path, Israel cannot survive in the long term. Its time to address the cornerstone of the hatred, that is the only way forward.

  10. #50
    Bloodthirsty Barbarian
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawDog View Post
    All it will take is one leader with courage and a sense of justice.
    LOL, that's not even close to sufficient. Such a leader would be disposed of quickly enough by entrenched, interested, powerful forces.

    Not that there is any possibility of any bi-national leader - courageous or otherwise - emerging in the first place. You're putting the cart before the horse on this one: you have to dissolve the national distinctions before they can share a leader.

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawDog View Post
    Israel cannot survive in the long term.
    Nothing can survive in the long term. You'll have to narrow your interest to something more immediate if you want to be relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawDog View Post
    Its time to address the cornerstone of the hatred, that is the only way forward.
    You're referring to power, here?

  11. #51
    Caput gerat lupinum GeoffP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawDog View Post
    This can be a gradual process. Oh boy, the massacre of its people? When is the WW2 card going to be pulled from circulation?
    Ask Hamas, Syria and...well, everyone else around them.

    Points to consider. Religious intolerance and hatred at the moment is one sided in favour of Jewish folk.
    Not exactly: power in Israel is one-sided in favour of Jewish folk. Outside Israel in the Middle East, it's one-sided in favour of Muslim folk. It may be that there's enough integral hatred for what you're suggesting, but it would be asinine to suggest that it only occurs in Israel.

    So thats OK, but a more even two sided intolerance is to be discouraged? That is the entire point of a Truth & Reconciliation process - a gradual application and integration of a rebooted value system. Naysayer.
    I have no idea how your first sentence relates to the sentence following it. How is this process a "two sided intolerance"? Will it be applied only in Israel, or elsewhere in the region, that it might achieve an actual two sided nature. (Sorry: I'm inferring your description here a little, but I'm not clear how this is intended to work or be presented.)

    And why is this such a bad idea? Given the geaographical location slap bang in the ME and all.
    It's not a bad idea in theory. Yet, if it were to be applied only in Israel, it would simply result in another Islamist-dominated society with equal rights for all straight Muslim men and crumbs for the rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by pjdude1219 View Post
    people like you always claim that the palestinians getting their rights would lead to the massive violence against the jewish conquerors only problem their is zero evidence to support such an idea.
    Except the constant perpetuation of the maddest possible conspiracy theories, calls to arms and anti-Semitic libel produced by the conservative religous movement in every Arab country around Israel. And that 1400 years of slow suffocation, fanned into a burning spark of pure hatred in the last hundred years or so by Salafists and the like. Oh, and the public statements of the Arab countries around Israel during the last two Arab-Israeli wars. The Hamas charter. And so on. I'm sure I'm forgetting something or other.

    you could judge them by what they would actually do.
    I think I just related that to you. Let me know if it was unclear.

  12. #52
    troaty mouth best song ever pjdude1219's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffP View Post
    Except the constant perpetuation of the maddest possible conspiracy theories, calls to arms and anti-Semitic libel produced by the conservative religous movement in every Arab country around Israel. And that 1400 years of slow suffocation, fanned into a burning spark of pure hatred in the last hundred years or so by Salafists and the like. Oh, and the public statements of the Arab countries around Israel during the last two Arab-Israeli wars. The Hamas charter. And so on. I'm sure I'm forgetting something or other.
    your twisting history again using the most vile interpertations and where that fails falsehoods and anchronism



    I think I just related that to you. Let me know if it was unclear.
    you mean your Judgement based on your version of history rather than you know real history. Why I still bother with your steadfast refusal to quit using anchronism to justify your prejudioce against arabs and muslims

  13. #53
    Caput gerat lupinum GeoffP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjdude1219 View Post
    your twisting history again using the most vile interpertations and where that fails falsehoods and anchronism
    That is pure drivel. The history of the Jewish people in the Middle East is not really open to unsupported speculation; nor are the attitudes of conservative Islam towards Jews and non-Muslims much in question, and they are often quite reprehensible.

    you mean your Judgement based on your version of history rather than you know real history. Why I still bother with your steadfast refusal to quit using anchronism to justify your prejudioce against arabs and muslims
    I have no prejudice against Arabs or Muslims, and my views, very simply, are no anachronism. Period.

    Since you cannot or will not acknowledge this, I think we have little to discuss. I recommend refreshing yourself with the history and present of the problem. Perhaps then we can continue.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffP View Post
    And the Middle East may more rapidly approach that goal lauded there but not here: cultural homogeneity. Probably, but not absolutely, with a little spicy genocide humus on the side.
    A realistic scenario is the certainty of demographics and the eventual economic demise of Israels benefactor America. Israel will resemble Lebanon with its 50/50 Christian Islamic mix, here it will be a 50/50 Jewish Arab mix. Gradually as the global shift of power moves to the E.U the Mid East loses geopolitical importance.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffP View Post
    That is pure drivel. The history of the Jewish people in the Middle East is not really open to unsupported speculation; nor are the attitudes of conservative Islam towards Jews and non-Muslims much in question, and they are often quite reprehensible.



    I have no prejudice against Arabs or Muslims, and my views, very simply, are no anachronism. Period.

    Since you cannot or will not acknowledge this, I think we have little to discuss. I recommend refreshing yourself with the history and present of the problem. Perhaps then we can continue.
    Recently, countzero recommended a book in this forum pertaining to Israel. The book is titled "The Israel Lobby and US foreign policy".

    I am 3/4 of the way through it at the moment and it deals quite a bit with what you are saying in this post.

    It is compelling reading and packed full of references for further reading and research, much of it by Israeli scholars about how the US and the world deals with Israel. I would strongly suggest you read it Geoff.

  16. #56
    Caput gerat lupinum GeoffP's Avatar
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    I will attempt to do so, given the chance.

  17. #57
    Caput gerat lupinum GeoffP's Avatar
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    I will attempt to do so, given the chance.

  18. #58
    disseminated primatemaia StrawDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quadraphonics View Post
    LOL, that's not even close to sufficient. Such a leader would be disposed of quickly enough by entrenched, interested, powerful forces.
    Think FW De Klerk & Gorbachev.
    Not that there is any possibility of any bi-national leader - courageous or otherwise - emerging in the first place. You're putting the cart before the horse on this one: you have to dissolve the national distinctions before they can share a leader.
    Not anyone that can presently be identified.
    Nothing can survive in the long term. You'll have to narrow your interest to something more immediate if you want to be relevant.
    Israel is a total infant in the grand scheme of nations. Long term in this case is a 100 years. they have only 40 to go. Compared to the longevity of other nations that have been around for centuries.
    You're referring to power, here?
    I am referring to confronting and addressing theft, embracing restitution and the end of apartheid.

  19. #59
    disseminated primatemaia StrawDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffP View Post
    Ask Hamas, Syria and...well, everyone else around them.
    Right. So what then are the gripes of these entities? Theft? Rape? Destruction? So thus ... address the root cause of said gripes and you may yet have friendship no?
    Not exactly: power in Israel is one-sided in favour of Jewish folk. Outside Israel in the Middle East, it's one-sided in favour of Muslim folk. It may be that there's enough integral hatred for what you're suggesting, but it would be asinine to suggest that it only occurs in Israel.
    Generally, outside Israel, Christian or other minorities in Muslim nations are not via state sanction, systematically ghettoized, starved and separated from the general population. The IDF guarantees that Jews and Jewish Settlers can hate, be intolerant and get away with acts of violence against Palestinians. The Palestinians do not have that luxury.
    I have no idea how your first sentence relates to the sentence following it. How is this process a "two sided intolerance"? Will it be applied only in Israel, or elsewhere in the region, that it might achieve an actual two sided nature. (Sorry: I'm inferring your description here a little, but I'm not clear how this is intended to work or be presented.)
    If all the inhabitants of the land you see on the map as "Israel", were afforded the same human rights and recourse to the law and protection of the law, how do you think intolerance would play out?
    It's not a bad idea in theory. Yet, if it were to be applied only in Israel, it would simply result in another Islamist-dominated society with equal rights for all straight Muslim men and crumbs for the rest.
    Goodness friend GeoffP ... Islamophobe much?

    And I utterly disagree with you. With the mix of skills and a constitutionally enshrined secular state, one could have an economic powerhouse.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Foley View Post
    A realistic scenario is the certainty of demographics and the eventual economic demise of Israels benefactor America. Israel will resemble Lebanon with its 50/50 Christian Islamic mix, here it will be a 50/50 Jewish Arab mix. Gradually as the global shift of power moves to the E.U the Mid East loses geopolitical importance.
    You do realize that chances are the economic downturn is far from a demise. Of course not you bigot.

    You do realize that Israel could easily sustain itself. Especially with those new natural gas wells for a loooong time. Of course not you bigot.

    You do realize that the EU is starting to have to support bankrupted countries and issue massive bailouts for countries that are in incredible economic collapse. Of course not you bigot.

    The fact that the Arabic population is skyrocketing is only because they realize that the Israelis have improved the life of Arabs in Israel dramatically in sixty years from the desert it was before, and that they consider the price of some amount of prejudice for what it arguably the most modernized country in the middle east to be well worth it.

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