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Thread: Scientific proof that chi is fake

  1. #1
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    Scientific proof that chi is fake

    In this video a scientist goes along to a dojo to prove chi is fake

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_qg...eature=related

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  3. #3
    Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle CptBork's Avatar
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    I remember I wanted to start some Kung Fu lessons, then the master (who was a white guy) started throwing all this woo woo at me. I'm sure he was a very skilled fighter and all, but I don't need to train my chi, thanks. The reason punching "through" someone seems more effective, is because then you tend to connect when your arm is at maximum velocity rather than at the end of its extension. Don't need to waste my time meditating when I could instead spend that time studying bone structures and ways to twist them.

    Oh and it's just awful how much quack medicine is coming from China these days... I don't get too upset about it because it's kinda like natural selection against the gullible. Sure glad my recent surgery was done by a doctor who studies how things work instead of some freakin' idiot who studied 3000 years' worth of steaming manure.

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    CptBork i like your comment natural selection against the gullible . Let the gullible live in their make belief worlds whatever turns them on.

  5. #5
    The objective of controlling "chi" is to attain the alpha state when the most concentrated power is exerted. I saw that in the Discovery channel where the process was under heavy instrumentation.

  6. #6
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    chi does seem a word for concentrated power.

    how else could a guy bend a steel rod with his neck. or raise or lower their body temperature with concentration.

    who is the gullible ones here? of course the ones in that vid is fake.

    it's like saying if one person can't perform a skill, the skill is fake. that is stupid. there are people who can utilize concentrated power better than others, as for knocking them down without touching them is bs.

    as for meditation, it's a form of introspection and what you are trying to accomplish during meditation is the objective whether it's as trivial as sorting out the day's going's on or calm oneself down or gain greater understanding of their own inner process. of course it's not magic and of course it's not the solution to everything.

    it's not just closing your eyes and being silent (unless that's all they are doing), even if that's what it appears to outsiders.
    Last edited by birch; 11-28-10 at 06:16 PM.

  7. #7
    Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle CptBork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by birch View Post
    chi does seem a word for concentrated power.

    how else could a guy bend a steel rod with his neck. or raise or lower their body temperature with concentration.
    Hey I'll confess, when I was a kid I used to believe in a lot of this stuff too. But if most of these things are being regularly performed as carnival tricks for entertainment, ought we not to be at least somewhat suspicious when someone does the same thing and tells us it's real?

    Quote Originally Posted by birch View Post
    who is the gullible ones here? of course the ones in that vid is fake.
    Yeah, so clearly there are lots of fakers out there. Why should we take these kinds of claims at face value?

    Quote Originally Posted by birch View Post
    it's like saying if one person can't perform a skill, the skill is fake. that is stupid. there are people who can utilize concentrated power better than others, as for knocking them down without touching them is bs.
    But what does concentrated power mean? Focus and muscle control? Supernatural contact with the forces of nature? I've always heard of chi in reference to a supposedly commonly witnessed force unlike any natural phenomenon ever observed in the lab. If it just means you concentrate more and perform better as a result, it's kind of like the no true Scotsman fallacy, you just keep redefining the concept until it's vacuous of any meaning and thus self-evident, so it can't be contradicted by any logical argument but doesn't tell you anything new either.

    Quote Originally Posted by birch View Post
    as for meditation, it's a form of introspection and what you are trying to accomplish during meditation is the objective whether it's as trivial as sorting out the day's going's on or calm oneself down or gain greater understanding of their own inner process. of course it's not magic and of course it's not the solution to everything.

    it's not just closing your eyes and being silent (unless that's all they are doing), even if that's what it appears to outsiders.
    Yeah I'm not saying meditation in itself is stupid, but I don't think it's going to do much for one's fighting abilities. You could imagine fighting an opponent and contemplating your possible approaches to the fight, but there would be a point of diminishing returns as far as the time invested. A lot of people meditate to try and tap a supernatural force, not just to gather their thoughts.

  8. #8
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    But what does concentrated power mean? Focus and muscle control? Supernatural contact with the forces of nature? I've always heard of chi in reference to a supposedly commonly witnessed force unlike any natural phenomenon ever observed in the lab. If it just means you concentrate more and perform better as a result, it's kind of like the no true Scotsman fallacy, you just keep redefining the concept until it's vacuous of any meaning and thus self-evident, so it can't be contradicted by any logical argument but doesn't tell you anything new either.
    it's just that, concentrated power using the mind. just as when you tell your brain to move your arm. it's just much more fine-tuned and not everyone can do that at the same level and there will be a lot of fakers too. also, like with anything, some people will misunderstand it and think it's supernatural and outside of them that they are accessing when the key is from inside you.

    because most people don't think that it's possible, they don't really work at it either.

    if you don't think it's possible, you will never attempt it. there are monks who have affected their temperature at will but it take concentration and there are those who have resisted hard physical force using chi or allocating power to a localized area.

    it's just not an ability that everyone has developed or even needs to. it's also not something everyone probably can do to an extreme level because it would take so much training and time.

    i have tried the temperature experiment and it did work for a bit but my concentration was easily broken, if your mind veers even for a second it's like dropping all the balls. i concentrated deep inside me and pictured my center as a burning furnace radiating out. the concentration on the burning furnace or fire was key. it takes a lot of concentration and that is really difficult. let me reiterate, very difficult, because you have to go so very deep and take control and shut out everything else. it's as if you are actually peering into yourself. but this is as a novice, for a true expert probably not as difficult after a time.

    you are right, that there may not be a need for it when other techniques in fighting can be used. chi (concentrated power) is just one of those things that aren't really practical in daily life except if for one's own personal benefit of more self-control. i would relegate that to more an art or interest much like a type of individual sport but it's still a testament to the power of the mind and what it could potentially do. of course this will differ with each individual and everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses.
    Last edited by birch; 11-28-10 at 11:34 PM.

  9. #9
    SF's Incontestable Pimp 420Joey's Avatar
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    I'm completely taken away by some comments that Im reading.
    Gullible people believe in Chi? No you are if you believe this article.

    "Scientific proof" Chi is fake!!?? What the fuck, "chi" or "life force" is a Fact.

  10. #10
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    Joey you talk about the life force being chi. But hey what you are talking about is "air". Air is not the chi we led to believe. I am sorry but the explanation of chi makes no sense it just opens pandaros box which questions what the chinese and hindus believe.

    This talk of imagining a fire burning inside you and you radiate heat. Well why cant we harness this and use it for good ? i mean generating heat by thinking alone is amazing if possible !!

  11. #11
    SF's Incontestable Pimp 420Joey's Avatar
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    There are hundreds of volumes of Feng Shui lore in which the primary discussion is of one of landscape, the nature of features, and their implications, but the one theme that ties it all together is the concept of ch段. Literally thousands of commentaries discuss this concept, each with its own point of view.

    In Chinese metaphysics, ch段 is the very essence or element that composes the whole universe--all, forms, all manifestations. Once the universe appears, all its transformations and developments are nothing but the transformations between ch段 and form. In a way, every form is not only created by ch段, but still contains the ch段 that created it. Metaphysically, you could think of it as a kind of as a kind of primitive string theory, where all the form in the universe comes into being through the phase, periodicity and interference of the vibration of quantum strings.

    On a more practical "classical" level, however, it is more like Chaos theory, which describes how things on a classical level flow and fold. In Feng Shui, as in Chaos theory, there are energy sources, and attractors at the bottom of basins (which is what got me interested in it).

    In Feng Shui, ch段 is not so much a specific kind of energy as a subjective reaction to the energies in an environment. So, if they are too slow, they "stagnate" leading to a feeling of being phlegmatic. Whereas, if they are too frenetic, it leads to a sense of agitation and unease. If you ever had a bedroom that was in a room that people had to walk through in order to get into another room, you would probably not find that particularly restful--but it would be a good room for, say, an office. Another example is the way clutter adds demands on the eye so that the eye does not flow smoothly around a room. On the other hand, a room which is picked up and squared away the flows more smoothly over the room and takes it in with less energy.

    But it is how a person feels in reaction to the flows of a room that he will describe as the subjective feeling of ch段. Theoretically, when things are flowing "just right" the person feels a sense of being in harmony with his setting, which gives him a sense of confidence which helps him project his intentions into an otherwise labile situation. To bring back Chaos theory, a well-tuned environment is like having everything set near a "tipping point" so that when one exerts one痴 self, everything is ready to go, and things seem to naturally fall into place so that everything is accomplished with a minimum of effort. In Taoist thought, this is called wu wei wu or "doing without doing." It is not a force by itself, so much as it is an insight into the situation. It is more like knowing which way is downhill when you push a rock, or knowing which way the wind is blowing when you spit.

    Now, this isn稚 to say that people don稚 claim to "feel" ch段 energy as a ball in their abdomen, and that when they "roll" it around they get an even more definite sense of it. I have found that it is best not to contradict such people since, apart from being rude, who knows what they are really plugged into?

    One theory in Feng Shui is that there are subtle electrical fields in the body and the earth, and that if you clear your mind, it is possible to tune in to them. Water underground, in particular, does in fact subtly change the nearby electrical fields in measurable ways--which may explain why some people are more adept at dowsing than others. Or, it may just well be that better dowsers have a better intuitive understanding of geology and hydrology.

    There may well be electrical flows along accupuncture meridians (I haven稚 studied it so I can稚 say), but that痴 the theory, and there seems to be some empirical validity to accupuncture points having definite electrical "hot" spots on the skin, and to the treatment itself. It is probably not a "new" or "separate" form of energy, so much as the condition of existing flows and rhythms of the body, of which there are many. And even if it only mobilizes some sort of placebo effect, that may be a worthwhile mechanism to investigate.

    As for "proof" I知 not sure that is possible with such a subjective metaphysical perspective. Probably, the better question to ask is whether it works for you--or better yet, if it works for those who are into it. In this, it may be helpful to adopt a more sympathetic frame of mind, since adopting a hostile skepticism (i.e., that it is rubbish until proven otherwise) is apt to negate the cooperation of people you will need to observe in order to tell if it "works" for them. As with many things, it may "work" but not for the reasons they think it does. The asian sensibility which came up with ch段, does not see things in terms of neatly linear chains of cause and effect, but rather as a tangled web of sanguine human connections (affinities and antipathies) which generate their own complex webs of causation, and their own unique perceptions.

    Sources: Shan-

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by CptBork View Post
    Hey I'll confess, when I was a kid I used to believe in a lot of this stuff too. But if most of these things are being regularly performed as carnival tricks for entertainment, ought we not to be at least somewhat suspicious when someone does the same thing and tells us it's real?
    A friend of mine is a Kung Fu instructor. He bought a book about 'Vagabond moves', and learned to pull off a fair few. They are designed to make it look like the practitioner can do something almost superhuman, but of course, it's a trick.

    It helped impress people at demonstrations, and drum up trade for his school. :-)

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by 420Joey View Post
    I'm completely taken away by some comments that Im reading.
    Gullible people believe in Chi? No you are if you believe this article.

    "Scientific proof" Chi is fake!!?? What the fuck, "chi" or "life force" is a Fact.
    Wow, stoner boy thinks 'Chi' is real. You have fried your brains, you really have.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by phlogistician View Post
    Wow, stoner boy thinks 'Chi' is real. You have fried your brains, you really have.
    you think a life force or energy does not exist?

    wow, that's quite a feat there. i can 'feel' different people's unique energy all the time being in their presence. everyone gives off what is called a 'vibe'. some people even have a very strong energy or vibe too. either way, it's easily detected just being around people and it varies. your whole body is embodied of energy due to something called being ALIVE.

    this is not woowoo, it's just common sense reality.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by birch View Post
    you think a life force or energy does not exist?
    Exactly no, it does not exist as a distinct entity.

    i can 'feel' different people's unique energy all the time being in their presence.
    That's a cumulative effect derived from many things. Not Chi. Chi does not exist.

    everyone gives off what is called a 'vibe'. some people even have a very strong energy or vibe too.
    I think you'll find a lot of what you feel is pheromone based.

    either way, it's easily detected just being around people and it varies.
    OK, please devise a double blind scientific test to prove your theory.

  16. #16
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    this is an issue of labels. we're not talking about a periodic table of exact elements.

    we don't call anger a process of chemical reactions in the brain when in action. we know what anger looks like and feels like. when people feel love or express love, they don't call it a chemical reaction though that it what it is.

    when people say water is wet, they know it's h20.

    chi is just energy the body produces.

    btw, i've stared at the back of someone's head in class for a minute and they turn around to look at me directly. evidently they could 'feel' someone was looking at them. explain that one.

  17. #17
    plagued by infinities Raithere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by birch View Post
    chi is just energy the body produces
    Vitalism has been rather resoundingly disproved. There is no such force, it is imaginary.


    "If living systems required an unknown force or energy to exist, this would be such a Grand Canyon gaping hole in our understanding that biochemists would probably talk about little else. There are no experiments, observations or even viable hypotheses that require the fundamental change in our conceptions that chi or the HEF would demand. No proponents of acupuncture, chiropractic, therapeutic touch or any of the others have ever produced the proper double blind, placebo controlled, reproducible scientific evidence to support their energy claims."

    http://www.theness.com/index.php/ene...pseudoscience/


    "Ancient observers guessed that because these tubes appeared empty and deflated, that some form of air or special gas must inflate them, hence the name qi (air). They believed that our bodies were inflated and nourished by this special air and that the arteries and veins were simply part of the respiratory system. According to the ancient medical text Ling Shu Jing Shui, this is where the idea of qi began."

    http://www.csicop.org/sb/show/roots_of_qi/

    ~Raithere

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithere View Post
    Vitalism has been rather resoundingly disproved. There is no such force, it is imaginary.

    ~Raithere
    really? the body produces no energy?

    lol

  19. #19
    plagued by infinities Raithere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by birch View Post
    really? the body produces no energy?
    Well no, the body doesn't actually produce any energy. It uses energy and like any machine it is not 100% efficient so it leaks a bit of it.

    But as to whether life has or is some mysterious energy force that can be used or manipulated to heal, harm, or otherwise affect objects or people at a distance there is no supporting evidence.

    ~Raithere

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