Rationality versus religion

**Kennyc** · 11-26-10, 03:20 PM

The silence is deafening.

**Skeptical** · 11-26-10, 03:24 PM

I think Lori has been honest, and has presented her evidence. The problem is that a subjective and personal religious experience/sensation is not sufficient evidence for those of us who are more scientific about it. As I keep saying, drugs can give you the same experience - which explains why drugs are so much a part of many religions.

And no, Lori, I have no interest in becoming theist. My interest is in what is true. If the existence of a deity was true, I would want to know about it, and I would want to see the evidence. In the absence of good rational, non-subjective evidence, I have to assume that no deity exists.

**birch** · 11-26-10, 03:50 PM

I think Lori has been honest, and has presented her evidence.

are you even awake? it's pathetic what they can get away with. no evidence, even of a subjective nature has even been described or shared.

all that has been stated is that they have had an experience. that is all.

**Lori_7** · 11-26-10, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by Kennyc

So, god is everything.

god communicates with you personally. Is this by projecting thoughts into your mind or do you hear the words. Do you write down what it says? What has it said to you?

i don't hear god with my ears unless god is communicating to me through someone or something that is physically audible, like music, or like another person, which god has. but sometimes it is like an implanted thought or notion; that is exactly how i've described it. god has told and taught me lots of things, in lots of ways; i would hardly know where to start. i would start with "i love you". god also said once "there is no time here".

Why do you believe it is not constrained by time or knowledge (what's knowledge got to do with it anyway?).

because there's meaning and intellect and accomplishment behind what god has done to me, and all of that logically points directly to what could only be defined as god. the capabilities and the resources that are required to accomplish these things is far beyond anything else.

If god is everything then god is me, why would I be asking you these questions if I already know?

you're a product of law, but that doesn't mean you should know what that law is, or where it comes from, or why. right?

**Lori_7** · 11-26-10, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptical

And no, Lori, I have no interest in becoming theist.

My interest is in what is true.

if the truth is that there is a god, do you see how these statements would oppose one another?

If the existence of a deity was true, I would want to know about it, and I would want to see the evidence.

why?

**Lori_7** · 11-26-10, 09:37 PM

skeptical,

is it ok to assume, based on what you've said, that you don't trust your own perception, or god?

**Lori_7** · 11-26-10, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by birch

are you even awake? it's pathetic what they can get away with. no evidence, even of a subjective nature has even been described or shared.

all that has been stated is that they have had an experience. that is all.

experience = life. yeah, that's all.

**Skeptical** · 11-26-10, 09:54 PM

Lori

As my nom de plume shows, I am sceptical. The opposite of sceptical is gullible. I am not prepared to accept any belief unless there is adequate credible evidence. This is my way of avoiding being gullible.

So what is credible evidence? As I said before it is the type of evidence that is acceptable in a scientific paper. It must be objective, and empirical, and strong.

You are happy to accept tenuous and subjective evidence. That does not work for anyone who follows the path of good science.

**Lori_7** · 11-26-10, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptical

Lori

As my nom de plume shows, I am sceptical. The opposite of sceptical is gullible. I am not prepared to accept any belief unless there is adequate credible evidence. This is my way of avoiding being gullible.

So what is credible evidence? As I said before it is the type of evidence that is acceptable in a scientific paper. It must be objective, and empirical, and strong.

You are happy to accept tenuous and subjective evidence. That does not work for anyone who follows the path of good science.

surely you don't require this of anything and anyone you experience, right?

**glaucon** · 11-26-10, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptical

You are happy to accept tenuous and subjective evidence. That does not work for anyone who follows the path of good science.

Indeed.
Or rationality.

Thus, thread concluded.

:-)

**Adstar** · 11-27-10, 01:47 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptical

I find this a bit sad. People disagree, and then get hot under the collar.

Hey guys. It's just a debate. If you disagree, that is fine. No need to call each other names.

Lori,

As you might surmise, I have a strong interest in proper evidence. I appreciate that you find your own subjective experiences convincing, but most on this forum, including me, require evidence that could be published in a science journal.

Do you have evidence of this kind to quote?

You seek measurable scientific evidence for Someone who exists independent of the Universe?

All science can do is attempt to measure the universe. Scientific method was only and is only a tool for measuring the universe. To Seek to use it to prove of disprove God is a waste of time because it was never intended as a tool to measure God.

So demanding scientific evidence of God is unreasonable and illogical at the same time.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

**CptBork** · 11-27-10, 02:46 AM

Originally Posted by Adstar

You seek measurable scientific evidence for Someone who exists independent of the Universe?

All science can do is attempt to measure the universe. Scientific method was only and is only a tool for measuring the universe. To Seek to use it to prove of disprove God is a waste of time because it was never intended as a tool to measure God.

So demanding scientific evidence of God is unreasonable and illogical at the same time.

In that case, God has no measurable impact of any sort on the universe, thus we have no means of telling whether God's actually there- for all you know, she's just a figment of your imagination, along with any untestable effects you attribute to her.

**Kennyc** · 11-27-10, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by Adstar

You seek measurable scientific evidence for Someone who exists independent of the Universe?

All science can do is attempt to measure the universe. Scientific method was only and is only a tool for measuring the universe. To Seek to use it to prove of disprove God is a waste of time because it was never intended as a tool to measure God.

So demanding scientific evidence of God is unreasonable and illogical at the same time.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

No, it's a reasonable and rational thing to do (see title of this thread).

**Kennyc** · 11-27-10, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by Lori_7

i don't hear god with my ears unless god is communicating to me through someone or something that is physically audible, like music, or like another person, which god has. but sometimes it is like an implanted thought or notion; that is exactly how i've described it. god has told and taught me lots of things, in lots of ways; i would hardly know where to start. i would start with "i love you". god also said once "there is no time here".

because there's meaning and intellect and accomplishment behind what god has done to me, and all of that logically points directly to what could only be defined as god. the capabilities and the resources that are required to accomplish these things is far beyond anything else.

you're a product of law, but that doesn't mean you should know what that law is, or where it comes from, or why. right?

You've still pretty much sidestepped the issue. I see no answer here to what happened that converted you other than you think you have thoughts being placed in you head saying I Love You. and There is no Time. You once more say "what god has done to me" but you don't say what it is.

Not very objectively convincing, but it does fit right in with the mental illness theory of religion and or the "god lobe" of the brain theory. I believe that YOU believe, but I also feel you should seek professional help because you are hallucinating.

**JuNie** · 11-27-10, 06:18 AM

Maybe the rational minds are the ones being irrational here. To debate rationally the rationality of what is completely irrational is itself not rational.

-JuNie

**Kennyc** · 11-27-10, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by JuNie

Maybe the rational minds are the ones being irrational here. To debate rationally the rationality of what is completely irrational is itself not rational.

-JuNie

Ah but to point it out to those who think otherwise is a good and rational thing.

**JuNie** · 11-27-10, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by Kennyc

Ah but to point it out to those who think otherwise is a good and rational thing.

Yes. Because I am an asshole.

**Kennyc** · 11-27-10, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by JuNie

Yes. Because I am an asshole.

Sorry, that was not directed at you specifically, but just at the concept of refuting beliefs in the supernatural.

But your response gives me a great idea for a poem. Thanks!

**birch** · 11-27-10, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by JuNie

Maybe the rational minds are the ones being irrational here. To debate rationally the rationality of what is completely irrational is itself not rational.

-JuNie

you miss the point. then "THEY" as in theists, shouldn't demand or expect it be to be taken rationally or seriously now, would they? they pretend it is rational. that is not rational

"my god is real, it's real, how can you not believe? it's real, it's real!!!" the 'how can you not believe in what i believe' is what the problem is. that's really what these theists are actually on about, no matter the pretense.

for cripes sake.

**JuNie** · 11-27-10, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by birch

you miss the point. then "THEY" as in theists, shouldn't demand or expect it be to be taken rationally or seriously now, would they? they pretend it is rational. that is not rational

"my god is real, it's real, how can you not believe? it's real, it's real!!!"

for cripes sake.

Yes, but I've just been reading all these posts on multiple forums and it just goes on...and on, and on, and on. I don't understand how you all can withstand so much woo woo and not go clinically insane.