Does God make mistakes?

[Doreen]

sure
a soul that isn't under the duress of illusion

So then Jesus did not really suffer for our sins.

Their ability to appear in this world by choice (and not force or implication by material desire) is what makes them especially unique, even amongst droves of spiritually perfected persons.

And more and more you move away from the Abrahamic religions. Which is fine, but I may not address your objections here because I think it is, really, a whole other topic.

All it suggests is that god is sorry to see the living entity in this world.
If one is working out of the notion that man is inherently of this world (IOW the corporeal world is our "real" home), perhaps there would be a problem

It would seem like God's sorrow is also of the opinion there is a problem.

[Doreen]

So how did people here become so certain that God cannot be fallible?

[lightgigantic]

So then Jesus did not really suffer for our sins.

If one is not free from illusion one can barely suffer the sins of one's own .... what to speak of others

And more and more you move away from the Abrahamic religions. Which is fine, but I may not address your objections here because I think it is, really, a whole other topic.

The Abrahamic religions relegate Jesus to sainthood?

It would seem like God's sorrow is also of the opinion there is a problem.

sure ... a problem of misplaced identity.
If one thinks that the material world is our "real" home, this gives rise to the problem of "Does god make mistakes?"

[lightgigantic]

So how did people here become so certain that God cannot be fallible?

If an entity is omnipotent, technically they don't have a sword to fall on

[Doreen]

If one is not free from illusion one can barely suffer the sins of one's own .... what to speak of others

I'll take that as a 'yes'.

The Abrahamic religions relegate Jesus to sainthood?

No, not what I meant. Christians would be put off by the use of the plural, right off the bat in your quote. Jews would be put off since the messiah has not come and you seem to think some of these beings have come. Muslims in general, I don't think, refer to things this way, except perhaps Sufis.

sure ... a problem of misplaced identity.
If one thinks that the material world is our "real" home, this gives rise to the problem of "Does god make mistakes?"

Like making a fake home, for example. But I dare say I feel like we are talking about maya or samsara and not something that quite fits with the Abrahamic traditions. I would try to take this up with you elsewhere if you wish.

[Doreen]

If an entity is omnipotent, technically they don't have a sword to fall on

There are things I can do, but haven't done in error. There are things I can do, but haven't done because of confusion or even not quite knowing what I was dealing with in myself.

Ah, I shouldn't even go here. I will mull over if I want to engage you here in what seems like a discussion not simply parallel to the other one here, but one that is a skewed line from the one here.

[Alan McDougall]

Mind boggling nonsense. The believer is happy to shift the burden of responsibility to a third (imaginary) party when it suits their purposes. Yet, they are the ones talking, no one else, just them.



This would be cute and funny if it was coming from an infant.

Mind boggling nonsense to you only mighty all knowing one.

May the fleas of ten thousand camels be lodged in your beard

[lightgigantic]

There are things I can do, but haven't done in error. There are things I can do, but haven't done because of confusion or even not quite knowing what I was dealing with in myself.

are we talking about a proposal of god's fallibility or ours?

Ah, I shouldn't even go here. I will mull over if I want to engage you here in what seems like a discussion not simply parallel to the other one here, but one that is a skewed line from the one here.

ok

[Alan McDougall]

If you don't think a baby deserves to get raped, then I don't see what raising the issue of its innocence is. It is innocent enough not to be placed in harm's way like that.

I chose a baby because often taking most clear examples can highlight problems with philosophical, religious or moral stances that are harder to see with other examples. I do not think it is OK for adults to get raped, but I don't want to get distracted by some of the issues that can get raised around adults. With babies most of these are immediately eliminated. We have someone utterly dependent on the adults in the home God has placed them in. Regardless of the choices the baby makes it cannot defend itself. It has not been bad so one cannot see the rape as something it has brought on itself, somehow, morally.

Since we are dealing with God, all examples must be covered.

To give a kind of opposite example to babies can perhaps show why I chose babies:

Why does God allow prison inmates to get raped?

You can imagine how the discussion might go all over the place to issues that do not apply in the situation with babies. I could have also used an everyday non-criminal adult. An example 'in the middle' so to speak. But even there it is muddier.

I chose the one where the issues I want to highlight are most clear.

I dont know if you are aware of it, but baby rape has really happened here in South Africa, where I live

[lightgigantic]

I'll take that as a 'yes'.

actually it was of a question why you think lodging the claim that jesus appeared in this world untainted by illusion prohibits him from having suffered fro our sins ... especially when being materially untainted would be a prerequisite for the act

No, not what I meant. Christians would be put off by the use of the plural, right off the bat in your quote. Jews would be put off since the messiah has not come and you seem to think some of these beings have come. Muslims in general, I don't think, refer to things this way, except perhaps Sufis.

hence the bone of contentions within the abrahamic religions is what puts the "s" on the end of it .... but even then, its still not clear how distinguishing jesus from a saint places one outside the category

Like making a fake home, for example. But I dare say I feel like we are talking about maya or samsara and not something that quite fits with the Abrahamic traditions. I would try to take this up with you elsewhere if you wish.

If you want, but there are plenty of biblical references to the value of things of this world and living in such a way to prepare one's self for the next

[Alan McDougall]

The god of the bible makes many mistakes if one considers him as the agent of creation

Likewise if we dismiss god in the equation then the evolution of the earth and the universe is just one huge mistake as well

[lightgigantic]

The god of the bible makes many mistakes if one considers him as the agent of creation

Likewise if we dismiss god in the equation then the evolution of the earth and the universe is just one huge mistake as well

If you want a response I think you have to pad out your conclusion with a few premises

[Doreen]

actually it was of a question why you think lodging the claim that jesus appeared in this world untainted by illusion prohibits him from having suffered fro our sins ... especially when being materially untainted would be a prerequisite for the act

So you do think he necessarily suffered for our sins despite being who he was.

hence the bone of contentions within the abrahamic religions is what puts the "s" on the end of it .... but even then, its still not clear how distinguishing jesus from a saint places one outside the category

I don't think Jesus as Bodhisattva sits too well with Judaism or Christianity. I would say Islam comes the closest, actually. But still he was a prophet and not God himself to them. And not even the best prophet at that.

If you want, but there are plenty of biblical references to the value of things of this world and living in such a way to prepare one's self for the next

But it's not quite the same. The next being where you go after you die if you are good and have accepted Christ in your heart. Which comes close to bhakti traditions, but even there one need not wait for death. The veil between is not individual temporal. I still think its apples and oranges. Both fruits, albeit.

[Doreen]

I dont know if you are aware of it, but baby rape has really happened here in South Africa, where I live

Oh, I'm aware of it. And it's not limited to South Africa, though there is a specific spin on sex with babies curing AIDs. I could have added that to my scenario. God placing a baby in the home of a man with AIDs who thinks that sex with babies will cure him and is willing to perform this act. Adds a little more quesiness and long term effects to the example.

[Doreen]

are we talking about a proposal of god's fallibility or ours?

I actually misunderstood your nice paradoxical sentence's context. Are you saying I am not God, lightgigantic?

[Big Chiller]

I don't think Jesus as Bodhisattva sits too well with Judaism or Christianity. I would say Islam comes the closest, actually. But still he was a prophet and not God himself to them. And not even the best prophet at that.

Jesus is one of the top five prophets in terms of status so no worries there.

[Doreen]

Jesus is one of the top five prophets in terms of status so no worries there.

But not God on earth. Bodhisattva or avatar of Visnu etc. does not fit with Islam I do not think.

[Big Chiller]

By the way being a prophet is no ordinary matter one is born a prophet and is protected by God from immoralities since birth.

[lightgigantic]

So you do think he necessarily suffered for our sins despite being who he was.

I'm saying that suffering for another's sins requires an element of being materially untainted

I don't think Jesus as Bodhisattva sits too well with Judaism or Christianity. I would say Islam comes the closest, actually. But still he was a prophet and not God himself to them. And not even the best prophet at that.

There are some elements of dichotomy even within christianity - for instance jesus isn't credited with universal creation or playing some role during adam and eve's time

But it's not quite the same. The next being where you go after you die if you are good and have accepted Christ in your heart. Which comes close to bhakti traditions, but even there one need not wait for death. The veil between is not individual temporal. I still think its apples and oranges. Both fruits, albeit.

Details of the after life are not christianity's strong suit ... although christian missionaries to india noted that the bhakti traditions posed the greatest challenges to their proselyting due to the remarkable similarity

[lightgigantic]

I actually misunderstood your nice paradoxical sentence's context. Are you saying I am not God, lightgigantic?

If one cites an experience that is a far cry away from omnipotence, it should be clear one is not. The very act of fallibility occurs at the hands of circumstances that are beyond our control.