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Thread: New Book: The Hidden Origins of Islam

  1. #141
    Encephaloid Martini (Q)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    Not really, you cannot change a man's mind by decapitating him.
    But, you can change the minds of an entire village or town by making examples. Whoever didn't want to convert could step up to the chopping block.

    Simple, yet very effective.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ja'far at-Tahir View Post
    A shining example of Western-Atheist enlightenment, tolerance and open-mindedness. But you really can't blame us; us brown people are just naturally barbaric.
    We don't cut off heads to convert to atheism.

    You're racist, too? How very sad.

  3. #143
    Grand Ayatollah of SciForums Ja'far at-Tahir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q) View Post
    We don't cut off heads to convert to atheism.
    Truly hilarious, Albania doesn't ring any bells? Cambodia?

    You're racist, too? How very sad.
    No, but you might as well have said it. Just admit it, you're full of shit and don't know what you're talking about.
    Last edited by Ja'far at-Tahir; 07-16-10 at 01:01 PM.

  4. #144
    Encephaloid Martini (Q)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ja'far at-Tahir View Post
    Truly hilarious, Albania doesn't ring any bells? Cambodia?
    Not at all. The bells you hear may just be your eardrums damaged.

    Just admit it, you're full of shit and don't know what you're talking about.
    OK, "you're full of shit and don't know what you're talking about."

    Happy now?

  5. #145
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q) View Post
    But, you can change the minds of an entire village or town by making examples. Whoever didn't want to convert could step up to the chopping block.

    Simple, yet very effective.
    No you can't actually. Forced conversions never work - can you think why?

  6. #146
    Grand Ayatollah of SciForums Ja'far at-Tahir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q) View Post
    Not at all. The bells you hear may just be your eardrums damaged.
    You're a joke. Really? You can't deny that Atheists have also used force and execution to spread and rid X state of religion. It's happened, sorry it puts a big dent in your anti-Islamic babble. Also, you're not being witty, so you might as well give it up, "it must be the bells because you're ears are damaged," hardy, har har. You're so fucking hilarious and insightfull.

    "Muslims deh kill people and ummmm, if you cough they'll cut of your ears, if they don't like your face they'lll cut it off and sometimes I heard they eat unborn Christian babies to assume their powers and ummm."

    Same basic bullshit your spewing, just as idiotic.
    Last edited by Ja'far at-Tahir; 07-16-10 at 01:27 PM.

  7. #147
    Registered Senior Member soullust's Avatar
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    Was the Book writen By satan?

    Oh I am so going to Get shit on for that one. (maybe)

  8. #148
    Encephaloid Martini (Q)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    No you can't actually. Forced conversions never work - can you think why?
    Ah, more stubborn and obtuse believers. Hilarious.

  9. #149
    Encephaloid Martini (Q)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ja'far at-Tahir View Post
    You're a joke.
    More insults. What is it with you believers and your personal insults when you can't form an argument? You call your religion the religion of peace but all you ever do is cause conflict. It's one of main reasons why I don't buy into your garbage beliefs.

    Really? You can't deny that Atheists have also used force and execution to spread and rid X state of religion.
    Can you provide that evidence? Or, is this going to another one of those pointless, tired assertions about communism?

    It's happened, sorry it puts a big dent in your anti-Islamic babble. Also, you're not being witty, so you might as well give it up, "it must be the bells because you're ears are damaged," hardy, har har. You're so fucking hilarious and insightfull.

    "Muslims deh kill people and ummmm, if you cough they'll cut of your ears, if they don't like your face they'lll cut it off and sometimes I heard they eat unborn Christian babies to assume their powers and ummm."

    Same basic bullshit your spewing, just as idiotic.
    Wow! You really don't get good examples of just how bad Muslims act in contradiction to their "religion of peace" until they do act.

  10. #150
    Grand Ayatollah of SciForums Ja'far at-Tahir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q) View Post
    More insults. What is it with you believers and your personal insults when you can't form an argument? You call your religion the religion of peace but all you ever do is cause conflict. It's one of main reasons why I don't buy into your garbage beliefs.
    To think that insults on an internet forum is "causing conflict," is absurd. Not only this but it's in response to a stupid and offensive post, by you. Don't bitch about people insulting you if you write something stupid. If you are talking in terms of Muslims in general "always causing conflict," and so on then, again, you're blinded by your own Western bias and cultural/religious ignorance, case in point, calling Islam "garbage beliefs."

    Can you provide that evidence? Or, is this going to another one of those pointless, tired assertions about communism?
    It isn't about Communism, it's about Atheism and Atheists killing and persecuting the religious. Am I saying that this, is inherent within Atheism? No, but it has been done. It's more a comment on extremist currents, in general. In regards to Cambodia, the Cham people, whom were Muslim, were persecuted and killed for being so. Are you unaware of the genocide of the Cham people under the Khmer Rouge?

    "...genocide [was] committed by the Khmer Rouge against Cambodia's small Muslim Cham population."-Andrew Perrin.

    "Perhaps as many as 500,000 died. They were considered the Khmer Rouge's No. 1 enemy. The plan was to exterminate them all" because "they stood out. They worshiped their own god. Their diet was different. Their names and language were different. They lived by different rules. The Khmer Rouge wanted everyone to be equal, and when the Chams practiced Islam they did not appear to be equal. So they were punished."-Ysa Osman.

    "However, in 1999, UN experts concluded that Khmer Rouge leaders should face charges for genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes on strong evidence -- including Khmer Rouge statements, eyewitness accounts and the nature and number of victims of each group -- pointing to genocide against the Cham and Vietnamese as ethnic groups and against the Buddhist monkhood as a religious group."

    http://jonestream.blogspot.com/2010/...ietnamese.html

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio...itarian_regime
    http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-186.html

  11. #151
    Encephaloid Martini (Q)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ja'far at-Tahir View Post
    To think that insults on an internet forum is "causing conflict," is absurd.
    Then, by all means, keep insulting people and see how much weight it offers in light of an argument.

    Not only this but it's in response to a stupid and offensive post, by you. Don't bitch about people insulting you if you write something stupid. If you are talking in terms of Muslims in general "always causing conflict," and so on then, again, you're blinded by your own Western bias and cultural/religious ignorance, case in point, calling Islam "garbage beliefs."
    There aren't any gods around to cause the conflict, so it must be the humans who follow the gods.

    Islam is garbage. Too bad you're insulted by that. Islam is a cult that is causing more grief in the world than anything else.


    It isn't about Communism, it's about Atheism and Atheists killing and persecuting the religious.
    Really? How utterly fascinating this fantasy is of yours.

    Are you unaware of the genocide of the Cham people under the Khmer Rouge?

    "...genocide [was] committed by the Khmer Rouge against Cambodia's small Muslim Cham population."-Andrew Perrin.

    "Perhaps as many as 500,000 died. They were considered the Khmer Rouge's No. 1 enemy. The plan was to exterminate them all" because "they stood out. They worshiped their own god. Their diet was different. Their names and language were different. They lived by different rules. The Khmer Rouge wanted everyone to be equal, and when the Chams practiced Islam they did not appear to be equal. So they were punished."-Ysa Osman.

    "However, in 1999, UN experts concluded that Khmer Rouge leaders should face charges for genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes on strong evidence -- including Khmer Rouge statements, eyewitness accounts and the nature and number of victims of each group -- pointing to genocide against the Cham and Vietnamese as ethnic groups and against the Buddhist monkhood as a religious group."

    http://jonestream.blogspot.com/2010/...ietnamese.html

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio...itarian_regime
    http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-186.html
    *Yawn* - yup, communism again. Communism was built on Christianity.

    What you fail to grasp is that I don't follow Communism, Christianity or any other extremely bad ideology. We could list the atrocities Islam has caused these past many centuries as well. The difference is that YOU do follow a very bad ideology all the while complaining about others following a very bad ideology, like Communism.

  12. #152
    Grand Ayatollah of SciForums Ja'far at-Tahir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q) View Post
    Then, by all means, keep insulting people and see how much weight it offers in light of an argument.
    Is this going to be the eternal mantra of the Atheists here? I offer insults and arguments nor do I think my insults towards you offer anything in terms of argument. This is ridiculous and absurd.

    *Yawn* - yup, communism again. Communism was built on Christianity.
    What a hilarious and colorful view of history and reality you have. It's also hilarious that try to claim that what I am saying is fantasy, when it most clearly is not. Like it or not, this is history.

    What you fail to grasp is that I don't follow Communism, Christianity or any other extremely bad ideology. We could list the atrocities Islam has caused these past many centuries as well. The difference is that YOU do follow a very bad ideology all the while complaining about others following a very bad ideology, like Communism.
    In other words, you don't even get what the fuck I'm saying. Regardless of whether or not it was Communists who did this, they were Atheists instituting state-Atheism. It was an example of Atheists forcing Atheism upon the religious by the barrel of a gun. Like or not, this is history and if you're going go on to claim that Islam the root cause of X violent acts then you must also admit Atheism is the root cause of these acts. Or you could admit that X violent acts had there root cause in extremism and are the result of ideology, politics and so on that do not necessarily have anything to do with X.

    Regardless of whether one is Atheist or Muslim, it's moronic to go around saying "Islam is garbage." Seriously. Not only that, to claim I follow a "very bad ideology," is equally as mornoic considering my posts within this forum. It illustrates that you don't know much about Islam, Muslims, or me, personally and my opinions and ideaology. In short, it appears you don't know jack shit about anything. You're just another pretentious Atheist convinced of their own superiority. Not only that, but this a thread specifically about the Hidden Origins books and the claims thereof. Thus all your posts are not only stupid but totally off topic. So what is the point? There is none other than insulting Muslims and Islam with your bullshitery.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    And now they don't.
    just like the Bahai.

    Argumentum ad persistentum.... haha... sounds like you are trying to cast a Harry Potter spell *poof* logic disappears

    Not only is appealing to popular belief illogical, most people didn't and don't believe Mohammad was a Prophet! Not only is your own argument illogical, but by using it you disprove your own claim!

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    No you can't actually. Forced conversions never work - can you think why?
    I agree now-a-days you (probably) can't forcibly convert (most) people to believe - because our religious paradigms are different.

    Back in the day people originally believed that the Gods supported Champions, so, when one person won a war or battle - it was because The Gods favored him. Usually he was a descendant of a God in one way or another (not always). Sometimes The Gods chose someone simply because he lived a just life (or whatever).

    Monotheists simply tweaked this paradigm a tiny bit, they believed that the One God favored a person, so, when this person won a battle - he did so because he was favored by the One God. Usually he was a descendant of a family that was blessed by God (not always). Sometimes the One God chose someone because he lived a just life - he was called a Prophet.

    It's all very much the same IMO.

    Did you see how many people blamed the octopus for Germany losing?!

    We evolved to make this type of error. The only way out is education (for some people, other people it's too genetic, for example see: Mirror . The information used to educate is best gathered scientifically. This then leads to a better more informed society. Less people will blame the octopus because they now understand that it's illogical and superstitious to do so. Most Chinese no longer worship Mao because they are better educated and better informed. So, it seems, education based on secular science leads to less superstitious type-I errors.

    That said, I'm sure that if the Iranian State had supported Baha'i Faith, Iran would now be majority Baha'i. Instead they used force to harass Baha'i and in that way they restricted the information most Iranians received and thus most remained Muslim. In this way you can see that force can be used to dictate religious belief. It's the same reason why Iran went from being Sunni to being Shia.
    Last edited by Michael; 07-16-10 at 06:17 PM.

  15. #155
    RE: Coins

    No one caught this?
    The fire altar is a clear Zoroastrian icon. Fire-altars play in an important role in the Zoroastrian faith and they were also refered to by Muslim authors as "fire-worshippers," so the reference is obvious.
    Yes, I agree that the Fire-Alters are clearly Zoroastrian AS WELL AS the Crescent and Star sitting between the Fire Alters - they are ALSO a Zoroastrian symbol. THAT much is clearly evident on the pre-Islamic Sassanid Persia King Khostau II coin. see below.

    See, we BOTH made the assumption that the Star and Crescent was "Islamic" (because it appears above Mosques).

    In light of this new evidence, to continue to do so would be making the mistake of Argumentum ad Antiquitatem.

    Because it clearly appears on a pre-Islamic coin next to a fire-alter - - the Crescent and Star are Persian Zoroastrian symbols.

    This is more evidence that "Islam" (the belief system) evolved from and incorporated much of it's traditions, myths and symbolism from earlier faiths in and around the area where it arose. Possibly from the Zoroastrian-Christian faiths in Syria. As I said, Christianity is clearly modeled on Persian Mythraism so we know there was a LOT of exchange in ideas through trade and commerce as well as war - we can find Persian Mthranic remains as far away as England.


    You can find Zoroastrian Star and Crescents to be the highest symbol on Mosques as well as on flags and all sorts of "Islamic" imagery (not to mention Mosque architecture is itself pre-Islamic Persian).

    http://islamiccoins.ancients.info/um...rabjird_AS.JPG
    Last edited by Michael; 07-16-10 at 06:51 PM.

  16. #156
    Encephaloid Martini (Q)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ja'far at-Tahir View Post
    I offer insults and arguments nor do I think my insults towards you offer anything in terms of argument. This is ridiculous and absurd.
    Offering insults in light of an argument is most certainly ridiculous and absurd, but it's what you do best.


    Like it or not, this is history.
    It's your deluded version of history.

    ...you must also admit Atheism is the root cause of these acts.
    How can I admit that when it's pure rubbish? Try learning what communism is about before spouting off.


    Regardless of whether one is Atheist or Muslim, it's moronic to go around saying "Islam is garbage."
    Ok, Islam is dangerous garbage. Some clarification was needed there.

    Seriously. Not only that, to claim I follow a "very bad ideology," is equally as mornoic considering my posts within this forum. It illustrates that you don't know much about Islam, Muslims, or me, personally and my opinions and ideaology.
    You are presenting Islam as expected. The fact that it is a very dangerous ideology is well seeded within your posts.

    In short, it appears you don't know jack shit about anything. You're just another pretentious Atheist convinced of their own superiority.
    If by 'pretentious' you mean not being indoctrinated into a vicious cult based on conversion by murder, then I would have to agree.

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAM
    True, but it takes a lot more than a story to capture the faith of a billion people and keep it, a thousand and some years on.
    The story is the key, of course, but you are correct: it's going on 600 years of Catholicism in the Caribbean islands, now, and it took more than a story there, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by SAM
    Mohammed is easily the most influential man in the world today, 1400 years after he died.
    Second fiddle to "Abraham", if we really must take the characters in these stories literally as people.

    Most of the Quran, for example, would be from Abraham, and the Quran is a very influential book.

    I remember a debate over who was the stronger hero, Superman or Mighty Mouse.

  18. #158
    Registered Senior Member Big Chiller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceaura View Post
    Second fiddle to "Abraham", if we really must take the characters in these stories literally as people.

    Most of the Quran, for example, would be from Abraham, and the Quran is a very influential book.
    Now what's this about why is most of the Quran from Abraham (pbuh) now and all of it not from God?

    And how exactly is Muhammad (pbuh) seccond fiddle to Abraham (pbuh) the Quran was bestowed upon him wasn't it?
    Last edited by Big Chiller; 07-17-10 at 01:47 PM.

  19. #159
    Registered Senior Member Big Chiller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q) View Post
    Offering insults in light of an argument is most certainly ridiculous and absurd, but it's what you do best.




    It's your deluded version of history.



    How can I admit that when it's pure rubbish? Try learning what communism is about before spouting off.




    Ok, Islam is dangerous garbage. Some clarification was needed there.



    You are presenting Islam as expected. The fact that it is a very dangerous ideology is well seeded within your posts.



    If by 'pretentious' you mean not being indoctrinated into a vicious cult based on conversion by murder, then I would have to agree.

    I see you bask in your ignorance and hatred and continue to change the topic.

  20. #160
    Valued Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by big
    And how exactly is Muhammad (pbuh) seccond fiddle to Abraham (pbuh) the Quran was bestowed upon him wasn't it?
    Most of it predates him by a thousand years - starting with the One God, the central matter of the book.
    Quote Originally Posted by chiller
    Now what's this about why is most of the Quran from Abraham (pbuh) now and all of it not from God?
    I'm already granting you, for the sake of the argument, the existence of Muhammed and Abraham as real people resembling their characters as appearing in the various books. That's enough.

    It's a book. Books are written by people. Certainly the Quran was not written by Muhammed - I don't think anyone claims that - but somebody wrote it.

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