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Thread: New Book: The Hidden Origins of Islam

  1. #321
    It'll be very interesting to see where the field is in 10 years

  2. #322
    The only road i've ever known Light Travelling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    Light Travelling,
    What are your ideas on the morality of women to have multiple husbands? And do you think it is moral for men to have 5 wives in a polygamous marriage?
    Just wondering,
    Michael
    Hi,

    If all were consenting adults either case would be cool.

    Take the religion out of it and see is that makes a difference. What if an areligious female and her two areligious male lovers decided to shack up together, or an areligious male and his two lovers decided this was a lifestyle that suited them and moved in together. Now is that still as abhorrent, or is that now cool cos the religions gone??

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    Given that women and men are born at about statistically equal levels. 5o men for every 5o women. Though, as you said, one man can impregnate many woman. So what? Where does that leave the other men? Killing one another for the right to reproduce?

    Large apes and chimpanzees have tribes centered are polygamous alpha males. They're still at that level of social organization I suppose. The great alpha male in the sky and his alpha male prophet, Jim Jones, here on earth
    Yea I agree, its the alpha male scenario. The richest most powerful man picks the best / most wives and secures his bloodline (natural selection). I believe the Koran says something about the condition on multiple wives is that the husband has to be able to provide for all of them financially.

    Hey, have you never heard of a non muslim man or woman marrying for money and security rather than love….

    And yes in China there is a shortage of women and not every man get to have one, is that the evil of the atheist communist regime? No its just the way life pans out, its not always fair and not always how we (the west) would like it, but that’s just the way life is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    I can't remember, was Buddha polygamous? And yet, south East Asia and China are so full of people
    I don’t remember anyone claiming Buddha had propagated south east asia?
    But polygamy was practiced in India around that time, if not in the form of marriage then certainly with a concubine arrangement. Again only for the rich and powerful.. alpha male

  3. #323
    Grand Ayatollah of SciForums Ja'far at-Tahir's Avatar
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    I will answer more properly later today, I just wanted to point this out for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    I looked for a link to a Journal. It's simply not there. I mean, I actually posted a book as well as a I posted a Journal citation for YOUR coin.
    Michael, you have tried this crap before. I already noted that one of my evidences (the tombstone of 'Abbasa bint Juraij) was cited by an academic journal and I even posted this on this forum. Here is the citations for said artifact:

    1. H. M. El-Hawary, "The Second Oldest Islamic Monument Known Dated AH 71 (AD 691) From The Time Of The Omayyad Calif ‘Abd el-Malik Ibn Marwan", Journal Of The Royal Asiatic Society, 1932, p. 289.

    2. A. Grohmann, Arabische Paläographie II: Das Schriftwesen. Die Lapidarschrift, 1971, Österreichische Akademie der Wissenschaften Philosophisch - Historische Klasse: Denkschriften 94/2. Hermann Böhlaus Nachf.: Wein, p. 72, Plate 10:2.

    Another example, the drachm of caliph 'Abd al-Malik ibn 'Abd Allah, here is the citations for that including an academic journal citation as well:

    1. J. Walker, A Catalogue Of The Muhammadan Coins In The British Museum, 1941, Volume I - Arab-Sassanian Coins, British Museum: London, p. 97.

    2. H. Gaube, Arabosasanidische Numismatik, 1973, Handbücher Der Mittelasiatischen Numismatik - Volume 2, Klinkhardt & Biermann: Braunschweig, p. 62.

    3. 3. J. Johns, "Archaeology And The History Of Early Islam: The First Seventy Years", Journal Of The Economic And Social History Of The Orient, 2003, Volume 46, No. 4, pp. 426-427.

    This was in post 116 of this thread, funny how you forgot about this. I would also like to point out again, that this book is highly controversial and is by no means accepted by the academic community at large in any real sense at this given time. It's a hypothesis, not an established fact, stop asserting it as such like all of us "poor," Muslims got bamboozled in the 7th century. Also, it was believed that the city of Troy was a myth up until the 19th century however we now know that it was a factual city that did infact actually exist in history.

  4. #324
    Encephaloid Martini (Q)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Light Travelling View Post
    The historic reason for this is that one man can make a number of women pregnant, thereby producing numerous offspring and increasing the tribe / family.

    Whereas the other way round however many men are present in a relationship with one woman, the end result is still only one child.

    This is not evil just outdated..
    Yet, I seriously doubt that has anything to do with Islamic beliefs. Of course, your premise must first account for the fact that the population is overwhelmed with women. Is it?

  5. #325
    The only road i've ever known Light Travelling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q) View Post
    Yet, I seriously doubt that has anything to do with Islamic beliefs. Of course, your premise must first account for the fact that the population is overwhelmed with women. Is it?
    Noit isnt, but as said above its based on alpha male scenario, some men have lots, others have none..

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Ja'far at-Tahir View Post
    I will answer more properly later today, I just wanted to point this out for now.



    Michael, you have tried this crap before. I already noted that one of my evidences (the tombstone of 'Abbasa bint Juraij) was cited by an academic journal and I even posted this on this forum. Here is the citations for said artifact:

    1. H. M. El-Hawary, "The Second Oldest Islamic Monument Known Dated AH 71 (AD 691) From The Time Of The Omayyad Calif ‘Abd el-Malik Ibn Marwan", Journal Of The Royal Asiatic Society, 1932, p. 289.

    2. A. Grohmann, Arabische Paläographie II: Das Schriftwesen. Die Lapidarschrift, 1971, Österreichische Akademie der Wissenschaften Philosophisch - Historische Klasse: Denkschriften 94/2. Hermann Böhlaus Nachf.: Wein, p. 72, Plate 10:2.

    Another example, the drachm of caliph 'Abd al-Malik ibn 'Abd Allah, here is the citations for that including an academic journal citation as well:

    1. J. Walker, A Catalogue Of The Muhammadan Coins In The British Museum, 1941, Volume I - Arab-Sassanian Coins, British Museum: London, p. 97.

    2. H. Gaube, Arabosasanidische Numismatik, 1973, Handbücher Der Mittelasiatischen Numismatik - Volume 2, Klinkhardt & Biermann: Braunschweig, p. 62.

    3. 3. J. Johns, "Archaeology And The History Of Early Islam: The First Seventy Years", Journal Of The Economic And Social History Of The Orient, 2003, Volume 46, No. 4, pp. 426-427.

    This was in post 116 of this thread, funny how you forgot about this. I would also like to point out again, that this book is highly controversial and is by no means accepted by the academic community at large in any real sense at this given time. It's a hypothesis, not an established fact, stop asserting it as such like all of us "poor," Muslims got bamboozled in the 7th century. Also, it was believed that the city of Troy was a myth up until the 19th century however we now know that it was a factual city that did infact actually exist in history.
    I think again, we're discussing two different things. I know there are books about the orient.

    1) I said there is no contemporary evidence for Mohammad's existence. As it stands the closest bit of evidence is a Greek manuscript from a Christian Patriarch complaining about a Christian heretic sewing discord in and around Syria published AFTER Mohammad's supposed death.

    That's pretty good evidence of a person fitting Mohammad's description. It may BE Mohammad. I'm open to that possibility. Even it's not contemporary.

    Then I said, if you have some contemporary evidence post a reference. I'm not asking you to post a book. Just a peace of pottery, a coin, a carving, a manuscript... something from the lifetime of Mohammad.


    2) Yes, I agree, we're still learning a lot about that time period and that place. It may well be there was a particular person. It wouldn't "shock" me either way.

    - Bahai' Faith has a historical founder/Prophet.
    - Mormonism has a historical founder/Prophet.
    - Scientology has a historical founder/Prophet.

    - I do not think Mosses existed. Because there's no good evidence.
    - I do not think Jesus existed. Simply because, like Mosses, there's no good contemporary evidence.
    - I'm fairly confident Hercules didn't exist. Maybe, but I doubt it.
    - I sometimes wonder if Socrates wasn't a literary creation of Plato. Maybe.

    - Did Mohammad exist? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

    What are the implications if he was a real person? Was he a Christian heretic? Was his message lost and later replaced with Arab friendly "Islam" in the 8th century? Was he a complete literary creation? Was he a product of a dispute over unitarianism?

    Well, that's why these are exciting times THAT was why I posted the thread. These coins go a long ways in answering this riddle. Because, one way or another we have a Christian based religion called Islam and we have a literary tradition of a person called Mohammad.

    New peaces of evidence come from the sands of Syria like every single day. There's so much stuff there aren't enough experts to analyze all of it. We may have a different answer in another 10 years.


    --
    --
    You should heed your own example of Troy
    Troy wasn't the massive fortress as described in the Iliad by the Greeks. If the Greeks did fight a battle there it was they who probably were the aggressors and they blew the whole story completely out of proportion and kitted it out with all sorts of Gods and Goddesses. DO you think that those Gods were real? No, of course not. Well, this is the way I think of Christianity, Buddhism, Shinto and Islam. Myths that effect our life and worth researching - but, certainly not based on "real" Gods.
    Last edited by Michael; 08-01-10 at 08:24 PM.

  7. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    Troy wasn't the massive fortress as described in the Iliad by the Greeks. If the Greeks did fight a battle there it was they who probably were the aggressors and they blew the whole story completely out of proportion and kitted it out with all sorts of Gods and Goddesses. DO you think that those Gods were real? No, of course not.

    Yeah I so do!!!



    yeah! bet you didn't know that im actually a follower of the ancient greek religion! you bag it out one more time and watch what happens...



    ...

  8. #328
    Grand Ayatollah of SciForums Ja'far at-Tahir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bert View Post
    yeah! bet you didn't know that im actually a follower of the ancient greek religion!
    Really?

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Bert View Post
    Yeah I so do!!!



    yeah! bet you didn't know that im actually a follower of the ancient greek religion! you bag it out one more time and watch what happens...
    Well in all fairness I was referring to Ja'far's take on the mater.

    That said, yes, those Gods and Goddesses may have been real. They were certainly more interesting. However, it was the Greeks more than anyone who developed the ideas behind Christianity. What Christianity is based on. I sometimes wonder if it wasn't in reaction to urbanization. I mean, highly packed cities of people. Maybe, maybe not.

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