New Book: The Hidden Origins of Islam

[S.A.M.]

Can you explain the significance of this symbol?

There is no real significance as such. The crescent was a symbol of the Turkic tribes and when the Seljuk Turks came down from Asia minor, they brought it with them, the Arabs adopted it possibly because they follow the lunar calendar and with the spread of Arab culture it became recognised as a symbol of Muslim identity

[IamJoseph]

What I have found from research, is that the Arab race is only 2,500 years old. Namely, there was no such thing as an identifiable ethnic group called Arabs before this time. Arab is not the same as Arabian.

I also found that Arabic writings emerged recently - in 400 CE.

[S.A.M.]

There is no such thing as "the Arab race" - its a linguistic and cultural group - the language is a derivative of Aramaic. Yemen is probably one of the oldest Arab cultures in history.

[IamJoseph]

There is no real significance as such. The crescent was a symbol of the Turkic tribes and when the Seljuk Turks came down from Asia minor, they brought it with them, the Arabs adopted it possibly because they follow the lunar calendar and with the spread of Arab culture it became recognised as a symbol of Muslim identity

Ok. Because some suggest that the pre-Islamic peoples followed a moon deity, and I saw maybe some connection here.

[Big Chiller]

The pre-Islamic belief in a moon deity was pagan and verses from the Quran exonerate Islam from being derived from the pagan worshipping of a moon god.

[S.A.M.]

Arab traders have been trading with Egyptians and Indians for thousands of years. Westerners are limited by all the history they do not know.

[IamJoseph]

There is no such thing as "the Arab race" - its a linguistic and cultural group - the language is a derivative of Aramaic. Yemen is probably one of the oldest Arab cultures in history.

Yes, Yemen is a very old kingdom - some of the oldest Jewish Arabs are seen there. However, the Arab race emerged after the Greeks conquered Persia, as security groups offering protection from foreign invaders [Greeks]. They first offered this paid protection to the Coptics, then eventually took over Egypt. Before 500 BCE, we see no Arab groups, no Arab kings, cities, wars, monuments, coins, writings, etc. The Arabic language is not from Aramaic - rather, it is an admix of many languages, including Hebrew and Latin, thus they spell Abraham with a B [Latin], as opposed the original Hebrew which uses the V [AVraham].

[IamJoseph]

Arab traders have been trading with Egyptians and Indians for thousands of years. Westerners are limited by all the history they do not know.

Egypt traded with India 5000 years ago - the red ink used in the pyramids came from India. But there were no Jews [Hebrews] or Arabs at this time. The Hebrews emerged 4000 years ago, the Arabs 2,500 years ago.

[S.A.M.]

There is no such thing as "the Arab race" - its a linguistic and cultural group - the language is a derivative of Aramaic. Yemen is probably one of the oldest Arab cultures in history.

Yes, Yemen is a very old kingdom - some of the oldest Jewish Arabs are seen there. However, the Arab race emerged after the Greeks conquered Persia, as security groups offering protection from foreign invaders [Greeks]. They first offered this paid protection to the Coptics, then eventually took over Egypt. Before 500 BCE, we see no Arab groups, no Arab kings, cities, wars, monuments, coins, writings, etc. The Arabic language is not from Aramaic - rather, it is an admix of many languages, including Hebrew and Latin, thus they spell Abraham with a B [Latin], as opposed the original Hebrew which uses the V [AVraham].

You can take a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink. You go, girl

/slaps rump of horse

[Big Chiller]

I have always heard that Jews emerged 5,000 years ago.

[IamJoseph]

The pre-Islamic belief in a moon deity was pagan and verses from the Quran exonerate Islam from being derived from the pagan worshipping of a moon god.

I see the pre-islamic ascention to Islamic monotheism as one of the great phenomenons in human history. It is nigh impossible for a pagan to change to monotheism. The Israelites failed this attempt, and were given divine assistance.

[S.A.M.]

I have always heard that Jews emerged 5,000 years ago.

Modern Jews emerged with the Talmud, 2000 years ago in the "diaspora" i.e. outside Palestine. All prior history is fictional or borrowed. It is possible that the original locations of the Bible were around Yemen rather than around Palestine. People tend to take the names of their home locations with them when they immigrate. If you go to Yemen you can see the locations have Biblical names - they probably predate the ones in Palestine.

[IamJoseph]

I have always heard that Jews emerged 5,000 years ago.

Abraham was the first Jew [4000 years], and the Jewish tribal community emerged with Jacob [3,800 years ago], the nation of Israel emerged with Moses some 3,500 years ago. Jerusalem was established 3,200 years ago by King David. The pyramids predate Abraham by 1200 years. This makes the Hebrews a late comer in the ancient world.

[Big Chiller]

In reference to Abraham (pbuh) I would say he and Nimrod lived around 5,000 years ago.

[S.A.M.]

In reference to Abraham (pbuh) I would say he and Nimrod existed around 5,000 years ago.

Possible, but records about Abraham only exist from around 400 years after the assumed date for Moses, and we have no evidence for the existence of Moses except that his name possibly Ra-moses, declares him to be Egyptian. Apparently Exodus 2:19 specifically refers to Moses as "an Egyptian".

[IamJoseph]

Modern Jews emerged with the Talmud, 2000 years ago in the "diaspora" i.e. outside Palestine. All prior history is fictional or borrowed. It is possible that the original locations of the Bible were around Yemen rather than around Palestine. People tend to take the names of their home locations with them when they immigrate. If you go to Yemen you can see the locations have Biblical names

So you deny that Palestine was the sovereign homeland of the Jews, as well as the temple in Jerusalem - as well as hstorically proven figures like David, Solomon, Isaiah and Jeremiah? You deny both the destruction by Babylon and Rome of Jerusalem and their wars with the Jews?

FYI, we have a historical document from Josephus, which says the pre-Islamic Arabs were paid mecenaries in the Roman army destroying the Temple. We also have the dead sea scrolls, dated as between 200 BCE and 150 CE - which means these were written centuries earlier. We also ave the Septuagint Bible, translated into Greek, dated 300 BCE. We also have 1000's of coins, relics and bits of Hebrew writings dated 1000 BCE, and an Egyptian stelle dated more than 3000 years old which mentions a war with Israel.

The Talmud is an explanation of the Hebrew bible - written not that long ago, one in Babylon [after the exile in 586 BCE], and another version in Jerusalem.


Which planet's history are you referring to?

[S.A.M.]

There is no evidence of any temple in Jerusalem. The Israelis have dug through the Romans right down to the Canaanites. Zilch, nada, nothing at all but the ravings and rants of Josephus. Its probably in Yemen somewhere. The Torah doesn't even mention Jerusalem [Urshalim, city of the Ugaritic deity Shalem]

[IamJoseph]

Possible, but records about Abraham only exist from around 400 years after the assumed date for Moses,

Moses emerged 400 years after Abraham - this is in the text, given with year to year descriptive events and geneologies.

and we have no evidence for the existence of Moses

Wrong. We have no proof - but loads of evidences. The text also warrants that Moses is the only figure which will never be proven.

except that his name possibly Ra-moses, declares him to be Egyptian. Apparently Exodus 2:19 specifically refers to Moses as "an Egyptian".

The name of Moses is Egyptian - this is what the Hebrew bible says. But any other similairty with Egypt ceases - Monotheism and the Egyptian beliefs are totally opposed to each other. The first Egytian writings, aside from stone ethchings, is in the opening two words of the 10 Commandments, transcribed in the Hebrew. Namely, ANO CHI ['I AM']. This was directed at the Pharoah who declared himself divine but did not speak Hebrew.

Moses is the most believed and revered human, by period of time, impact and by cencus.

[S.A.M.]

Moses is the most believed and revered human, by period of time, impact and by cencus.

Still, no evidence of his existence. And his beliefs were derived from Egyptians.

[IamJoseph]

There is no evidence of any temple in Jerusalem. The Israelis have dug through the Romans right down to the Canaanites. Zilch, nada, nothing at all but the ravings and rants of Josephus. Its probably in Yemen somewhere. The Torah doesn't even mention Jerusalem [Urshalim, city of the Ugaritic deity Shalem]

This is a clear proof how Muslims have a totally distorted view of the world. One can easily fill 100 pages in this forum of scientifically verified historical proofs of Israel's history - but it would not make any difference to Muslims. Not only do they deny Moses, but present him as a Muslim. Then they deny the Holocaust, while also saying why should they suffer for Europe's crimes. But the Protocols of Zion and the Blood libels are presented as real history in Islamic countries - even after Europe long ago declared these as fictional stories.