Zionist piracy

[GeoffP]

What I'd like to see is an Israeli video in which I can see the faces of the IDF, since the Turks published the pictures, we can see how authentic the video is if we can recognise the same faces there.

First it was that the protesters were unarmed, then it was that there was no premeditation, then it was machine-guns blazing, then it was how there were no paintguns.

Sorry, but it's exceedingly likely that this is another one of those. Don't feed the troll, they say.

[GeoffP]

Is this evidence of some more hysterical hand wringing from you?

Ad hom again: and I don't think you know what that phrase means.

You are a hypocrite because you feel no qualms about personally attacking others while complaining about attacks upon yourself.

I give what's given to me. Funny that way, I guess. Actually, that's not true: I don't engage in unsubstantiated attacks and name-calling, as you do.

Actually, no it does not.

So you admit that the journalists who were on that ship, impartial journalists only there to cover a story, may have captured the IDF in an unsavoury light because of the way the IDF acted and stormed those ships?

No: I say that there is the possibility of the above. However, the personal accounts (as by Ms. Lee, I think her name was) coupled with the videos support the Israel version of events, insofar as that goes.

Guilt and premeditation?

Okay. You keep harping on and on about this.

The facts, as they are, had the IDF shadowing that flotilla for hours prior to their storming it. The ships were in international waters. I would imagine that if the activists were intent on causing harm, and it was premeditated, they would have gone down to the kitchens to arm themselves better than with poles that hold up the railing from the deck.

Again: how? They weren't carrying guns, remember? By "gone down to the kitchens" I assume you mean knives: which they did use. So again, your facts support the interpretation you don't want.

Really?

Now, you want to talk about anti-Israeli singing and show premeditation? The evidence, as is plainly evident in their having to resort to using support poles for the deck railing and plastic chairs

Yes, the "iron-ish sticks" of legend. Tell me, do you think an "iron-ish stick" is a useful weapon? Basically a big metal club. Do you think you could kill someone with it?

So where you go paintballing, the paintballs themselves have shards of glass embedded in them? You paintball with the IDF for fun?

Non sequitur. Not the point and you know it.

Oh really? So tell me, what "care and intent" and their premeditation (since you know, they admitted to planning their actions in storming that flotilla for weeks) do you see when they have pieces of glass embedded in the paintballs they use?

Riot control weapon. But several of you on the "other side" been implying that the Israelis came to kill. Did they think the paintball guns were lethal weapons? Why didn't they bring machineguns and real grenades? You see, this is what I don't get or believe about you: the argument was about whether the kind of arms the Israelis were packing were mostly lethal (they weren't), not whether they were nasty. They are nasty: but not lethal. This should be kind of obvious to you, and yet it isn't. So, like Tiassa says, either you're actually ignorant of this distinction or you're faking. Genuine is genuine, and you're not.

Also, on that note, why don't we have a single image of the activists with any paint on them? What we have are dozens of people injured having been shot. Now, either their paintballs had very little paint and more glass to cause damage or they fired very few and switched to live rounds straight away, which is what the passengers on those ships have claimed.

Of that, we cannot say. Perhaps the rounds were loaded with pepper, as EF has said. Perhaps there was no paint and only the glass. But if you expect me to believe you at this point, you'd have to try very hard.

So tell me, are you going to use the "care and intent" line with me about the IDF?

Oh, absolutely (see above): you claim they were there for a slaughter, but they clearly weren't. Thus, it's a very salient point.

And you do yourself a disservice in finding what was sung at a hate rally more important than what actually happened on that boat.

Premeditation, councillor. We've been through this.

You do yourself a disservice when you attempt to justify shooting people in the head and executing them while harping on and on about the "rally".

Interesting: where have I justified shooting people in the head?

Really? So when you question my abilities as a lawyer, when you question my intelligence by calling me stupid, dumb and not to mention my ability to read and comprehend, you're doing what exactly?

Using Sam's model of dissertation?

Bells, I question you because it seems incredible that you don't follow my points and distinctions despite purportedly being a trained argumenter. It is a disservice to the argument. ("Stupid" and "dumb" are redundant, anyway.) My points are at least arguable: but your recourse has often been to simply blanket those who don't agree with you on this issue "racist" and leave it at that; this is patently false. I think you'll find my handling of you a lot more equanimous than most posters around here.

How about when you kept making fun of my attempted rape? What disservice does that do to me or others?

You also fundamentally misunderstand that: first, I've already apologized for it, and now you use this solely as a means to attack me. Second: the point of the joke was the way in which you won. It was, in fact, triumphal, and a stirring scorn on your attacker. But you may take this as you will.

as if trying to goad me into doing something you know I would never stoop to

Well, as I said, you've stooped to a lot else thus far. I merely wanted to give you the chance to express yourself.

I also do not go onto other websites and stab you in the back.

Yes: the poor untouchable moderator must have felt incredibly betrayed to discover that evil Geoff had been griping about him on someone else's site, after she'd been blasting him with the same nonsense as above. How that must have hurt her, being complained about while holding a near-absolute upper hand.

/Sneer

You are pathetic.

Very fair and balanced. I can see you have your "dignity hat" on.

[noodler]

Israel has apparently just announced the blockade will be lifted, allowing UN aid in by land (I assume the port will stay blockaded).

Perhaps the government has realized that maintaining the illusion of humanitarian ethics was looking a little unsustainable. I don't expect it will make a great deal of difference to the daily lives of Palestinians who will remain under occupation. The security of Israel shouldn't, but it does, depend on starving people and forcing them to live in conditions which can't by any stretch of Jewish or European imagination, be humanitarian.

Allowing UN aid will therefore restore some credibility to Israel's claims to humanitarianism. There is however, a helluva way to go. It would be nice if they apologized for their behaviour, but don't wait up...

Oh yeah, to all the Zionists here, after defending the aid ship raid and the extrajudicial killing (by armed soldiers) of several protesters, how did the whole thing work out for you, now that the protesters have won?

[GeoffP]

Israel has apparently just announced the blockade will be lifted, allowing UN aid in by land (I assume the port will stay blockaded).

Excellent news! Finally, for crying out loud. What a stupid, miscreant idea.

[ElectricFetus]

Yes its the boring long unedited version, one hour long, which looks nothing like the "behind the scenes" of the Titanic, as the Israeli videos do. You can see all the faces, hear what they are saying and see what they are doing. No one is walking through iron bars on the ship. They have nothing to hide.

And not much to show, but here are some highlights:

37:21: protesters throw/shoot something at ship, about the size of a small can.
37:33: Another chimp throwing something.
37:41: Protester wearing mask (but only the Israelis can't be seen eh SAM?).
41:58: Protester with whacking stick.
42:08: 2 Protester shooting slingshots at helicopter.
42:55: 2 protesters with whacking sticks and masks (not gas-mask).
50:47: Knife.
50:57: lots of protesters with whacking sticks.
52:12: Protester parading Israeli helmet.

So basically this video shows all the things the Israeli video shows, its just the Israeli videos on show what is most damning to the Protesters. So this video validates most of what israeli has shown, do you still claim israeli videos are fake?

The only undisputed part of the flotilla raid is that nine activists are dead [we don't know what happened to the missing people yet]

Certainly the whacking sticks, and bomblits, sling shots, knives can't be disputed now. Why those protesters died is the biggest thing disputed though: if they were whacking with those whacking sticks or stabbing with knives, they had it coming.

Its a failed flotilla that succeeded. Israelis killed Turks on the ship alienating their only ally in the ME. You should see the broadcast of the funeral procession in Istanbul.

Which was the plan all along as they wanted to become martyrs.

And Egypt opened the border at Rafah. Iara Lee and the other activists are putting together a bigger flotilla with more secular/religious, multinational, multireligious, multiethnic group bound for the Gaza blockade.

What will Israel do?

Probably develop the technology Billy hinting at. Maybe two speed boats with a metal netting between them pass around the blockade running ship and jam its props followed by tug boats that weld or magnetically clamp drag lines to the haul then tow them to Israel.

[ElectricFetus]

Excellent news! Finally, for crying out loud. What a stupid, miscreant idea.

aaaaah but I wanted to see the Israeli prop jaming device, oh well about time, I think Israel should simply pretend gaza is dead to them, simply wall off the boarders to Israel and shot down the missiles and return fire with artillery.

[noodler]

Ye gods. They're still here defending Israel's ill-conceived armed raid in open waters on a civilian ship.

Get over it. The protest worked. Defending Israeli tactics, in this case, is already a waste of time -- nobody actually cares about Israelis using some right to defend themselves as a pretext, geddit?

[Bells]

Israel has apparently just announced the blockade will be lifted, allowing UN aid in by land (I assume the port will stay blockaded).

Lifted?

No.

Eased.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/mid...t/10338199.stm

The new list of what can be allowed in is yet to be released.

[noodler]

Lifted?

No.

Eased.

Dammit. I knew I should have had my skeptical hat on when I heard the news. But it doesn't detract from the fairly obvious cause celebre, which message seems to have gotten through to the Israeli cabinet.

[GeoffP]

Ye gods. They're still here defending Israel's ill-conceived armed raid in open waters on a civilian ship.

Get over it. The protest worked. Defending Israeli tactics, in this case, is already a waste of time -- nobody actually cares about Israelis using some right to defend themselves as a pretext, geddit?

Noodler: truth is truth, fact is fact. You don't understand what's being discussed here. The facts are relevant to the case.

Geddit?

[S.A.M.]

Turkey has frozen billions of dollars worth of defense deals with Israel in the wake of the Israel Navy's deadly raid on a humanitarian bound flotilla to the Gaza Strip, according to Turkish media.

Some of the 16 scrapped projects include a $5 billion deal in which Ankara was to receive 1,000 Merkava Mark III tanks from Israel, a $50 million plan to upgrade Turkish M-60 tanks, and a $800 million agreement to buy two Israeli patrol aircrafts and an Airborne Warning and Control System aircraft.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...-raid-1.296733

I guess now, more than ever, Israel must blockade dried fruit and cinnamon for the Gazans. They may even shut down the grocery stores in self defense.

[Billy T]

I wish there was some kind of technology that did that! One of the problems with fowling up the propellers is the chance of blowing the bearings and causing flooding from where the shaft protrudes from the ship.

wire guided torpedoes were very common back in WWII. I.e. the technology exists, especially if the run from the launching ship to the stern of the target is only half a kilometer or so.

As far as the risk of sinking the ship is concerned, that is zero. One does not need a charge large enough to bend the main shaft only the hinges of the rudder and/ or its much weaker shaft. Even if this impossible leaking were produced there are water tight doors to close.

I don't see a problem with a night attack. there goal was to take control of the ship, ... Attacking at night provides greater chances to take over the ship.

Not true. Nor the normal way a coast guard takes over a ship. It is much safer for all to ask to inspect, with a lightly armed boarding party, in day light, but with obviously ability to disable or even sink the ship if the reply is NO and bullets are fired to make that emphatically plain.

I don't think its possible to protect every single citizen.

Probably not. But from crude unguided Gaza rockets it is, with even first generation CIWS bullets fired at only 1% of max rate. Creating peace is the only way to protect all, but that will take, IMHO, about two generations of those "blinded by hate" on both sides dying of old age in their beds first.

What Israel (and most posting here), do not seem to realize that in a decade or so with continuation of the High Kill Ratio policy instead of trying for perfect defense in a "live & let live" policy the advance of biological capacity within the Arab world will make it feasible for black balloons, filled with lethal and contagious / infectious spores, to drift across Israel's borders on moonless nights and kill 10 of thousands of Israelis. (Launches from Jordan and Syria being common too.)

There will be of course many Palestinians dying from them too, but Israel has already make many wish for death. - They have nothing to live for and expect that is true for their children too. (So no reason why their children cannot get shot just for throwing stones at Israeli occupiers - etc.) They already for a 1000 years have a cultural / religious "death wish" if their death is caused by following Allah's will.

Hundreds of Muslims already hope for the chance to die getting even with Israel - even with Ebola or anthrax they contracted by tossing spores of it from a small boat up wind of Tel Avivi, Haifa etc. or out of a high-rise building window in a city where they normally clean floors, take out the trash, etc. for etc.

Making peace, not the high kill ratio, is Israelis ONLY hope for a secure future, but given what they have done for 60 years it will take 40 years of both sides living securely but separately to achieve. That is possible as I have described five years ago but this 2006 revision is more clearly stated:
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=115

[Bells]

Dammit. I knew I should have had my skeptical hat on when I heard the news. But it doesn't detract from the fairly obvious cause celebre, which message seems to have gotten through to the Israeli cabinet.

Read the article.

This was not an easy decision.

The blockade remains in place. It has merely eased and Israel still has control over that list and will do with it as they so choose. In other words, they can change their minds tomorrow.

[ElectricFetus]

wire guided torpedoes were very common back in WWII. I.e. the technology exists, especially if the run from the launching ship to the stern of the target is only half a kilometer or so. As far as the risk of sinking the ship is concerned, that is zero. One does not need a charge large enough to bend the main shaft only the hinges of the rudder and/ or its much weaker shaft. Even if this impossible leaking were produced there are water tight doors to close.

I was not arguing about the propulsion system I was arguing about how the hell do you disable as ship safely. The technology does not exist to get a torpedo that fowls the props or rudder only, it would require a totally new warhead of some kind, need to be built and tested, take month if not years to develop. And there is always risk, more so with activist on board that would love to blame any damage what so ever on their opponent. If a leak was to form by israeli action it possible the activist would abandon ship on the spot to blame the sinking of a whole ship on the Israelis, that includes not closing bulkhead doors!

Not true. Nor the normal way a coast guard takes over a ship.

This was not a coast guard, and abnormal does not mean wrong.

It is much safer for all to ask to inspect, with a lightly armed boarding party, in day light, but with obviously ability to disable or even sink the ship if the reply is NO and bullets are fired to make that emphatically plain.

It would have been physically impossible to inspect and remove all counterbane on those ships at sea. More so we don't know if they proposed an inspection and the ships rejected it. Certainly though I do see an advantage to lying that they are only inspecting, getting on the ship safely and then taking over, and doing so at day time to add weight to the inspection rues.

Probably not. But from crude unguided Gaza rockets it is, with even first generation CIWS bullets fired at only 1% of max rate.

CIWS was/is not that capable, I'm sure 40-60 rounds a minute (at or less then 1 round a second) would be useless no matter the threat. More so if the Gazians save up and shoot off several thousand rockets at once no missile defense would be able to stop them all.

Creating peace is the only way to protect all, but that will take, IMHO, about two generations of those "blinded by hate" on both sides dying of old age in their beds first.

Oh totally agree that why I advocate as complete as possible of a dissociation between the Palestinians and Israelis. This is possible with gaza and at the rate Israeli settlements are growing impossible with the west bank, I would think absorption of the remaining west bank Palestinians as full Israeli citizens would become and inevitable at some point as those settlements grow.

What Israel (and most posting here), do not seem to realize that in a decade or so with continuation of the High Kill Ratio policy instead of trying for perfect defense in a "live & let live" policy the advance of biological capacity within the Arab world will make it feasible for black balloons, filled with lethal and contagious / infectious spores, to drift across Israel's borders on moonless nights and kill 10 of thousands of Israelis. (Launches from Jordan and Syria being common too.)

Sure, but a live & let live could actually lead that to happen quicker if the Arabs don't come to agree to "let live" fast enough.

There will be of course many Palestinians dying from them too, but Israel has already make many wish for death. - They have nothing to live for and expect that is true for their children too. (So no reason why their children cannot get shot just for throwing stones at Israeli occupiers - etc.) They already for a 1000 years have a cultural / religious "death wish" if their death is caused by following Allah's will.

Hundreds of Muslims already hope for the chance to die getting even with Israel - even with Ebola or anthrax they contracted by tossing spores of it from a small boat up wind of Tel Avivi, Haifa etc. or out of a high-rise building window in a city where they normally clean floors, take out the trash, etc. for etc.

ture, ture, but this issue is to big picture for this thread, this is for the "One Thread To Rule Them All: Israel, Palestine and the Arab/Israel Conflict" thread.

[spidergoat]

Taking out the propulsion system in a ship puts it in grave danger of sinking, haven't you ever seen "Deadliest Catch"?

[Billy T]

... I wanted to see the Israeli prop jaming device, oh well about time, I think Israel should simply pretend gaza is dead to them, simply wall off the boarders to Israel and shot down the missiles and return fire with artillery.

Good to have your support for something like my 5 year old ideas.

[ElectricFetus]

Good to have your support for something like my 5 year old ideas.

Your not the first to come up with that idea, I'm sure others have been proposing similar ideas for decades.

As for the ship disabling weapon thats actually trolling my mind! At first I was thinking of just running steal rope netting under the ship, trolled along by two speedboats on the side of the target ship. This would be susceptible to catching on something other then the props on the underside of the ship or could be countered with a metal frame in front of the props, but it would be extremely simple to make and test and could be readied in weeks. A much more advanced system would be a dragging torpedo that a speed boat in from to the target ship trails down below the ship and it attachs it self to the propeller shaft and cuts it or injects molten burning thermite like metal into the propeller blades or the water jet intakes.

Once the ship is disabled a means of attaching to the ship to forcibly drag it to port is required. I would guess speedboats could come up and weld drag lines on or plaster on magnetic clamps then tow boats will finish the job.

Certainly Israel is going to need to consider such systems if they want to keep up the blockade, as much as I find the blockade draconian I would love to see a new gadget work.

[pjdude1219]

This was not a coast guard, and abnormal does not mean wrong.

functionally the Israeli navy is more of a coast guard than a blue water navy. out side of the dolphin and Saar 4,4.5, and 5 it has nothing that could truly function as a blue water navy vessel except maybe as a really small escort vessel. the US coast guard operates armed ships far larger than the Israeli corvettes.

[Billy T]

... I was arguing about how the hell do you disable as ship safely. The technology does not exist to get a torpedo that fowls the props or rudder only, it would require a totally new warhead of some kind, need to be built and tested, take month if not years to develop. ...

Nonsense! Israel could have disabled (and only disabled) the ship with technology that is older than Israel!

“ In 1941, Italian frogmen disabled two of the most powerful ships in the British Fleet by navigating the torpedoes through mine fields outside Alexandria harbour in Egypt.” From: http://www.culture24.org.uk/history+...story/art53415

Here is the type of 1930s “boat” they rode:

The two man crew sat behind the bump. In the earliest uses, they did not have adequate snorkel breathing systems so rode with their heads out of the water. If BP can cut the thick drill pipe off with robots a mile below the surface I don't think much technology development is needed to disable a defenseless civilian ship. Perhaps the Brits will lend their 1930 maned torpedo? - They made this mess to start with after Ben Gurion blew up the King David Hotel and killed some Brits - I.e. turned the land over to Jewish forces that would soon become Israel and went back to England.

Original photo caption: "The National Maritime Museum in Cornwall has taken delivery of a replica 1930s Italian Mark 1 human torpedo - an underwater craft used for covert operations to attach explosives to warships during World War Two."

The frogmen would not even need explosives - just ram their torpedo into the prop or rudder, but much cheaper to sick a small magnetic charge on the rudder with 5 minute fuse for them to get clear. In WWII torpedoes chasing a ship often disabled it in the stern - Then it was "sitting duck" for surface warship to sink later.

Acoustic homing torpedoes have been used for decades and usually take out the prop and or rudder. The Russians made a wake homer (swam up the bubble trail) that could do about 50 mph so their sub could safely fire it at the Carrier from outside the battle group and it would catch the carrier a couple of hours later before it ran out of fuel but it was big as a small submarine and designed to self explode about 50 meters below the carrier - only way it could sink a big warship is to make huge void below ships middle for ship to structurally buckle and fall into. (Long ships are not strong enough if supported only at their ends.)

[pjdude1219]

Taking out the propulsion system in a ship puts it in grave danger of sinking, haven't you ever seen "Deadliest Catch"?

big difference between the north atlantic and the mediterrainian