06-06-10, 03:54 PM #1201
The frustrated attempts by activists to sail boats like the Rachel Corrie to Gaza has thrown the spotlight on life inside the territory under Israel's blockade, as the BBC's Jon Donnison reports from Gaza City:
“… At the Gaza City port, dotted with small fishing boats, a young Hamas policeman dressed in black and with a Kalashnikov tucked under his arm, lent over and smiled. … I asked whether he supported Hamas claims that this week's events had been a victory for the Islamist movement.
"I just work for them," he replied. "I am not political, but they pay well." The teenage officer told me his salary was about $500 (£345) a month, a good wage in Gaza. It is more than he used to get working on a farm, before it was destroyed by Israel. Hamas is now one of the biggest employers in Gaza. … People here, including Hamas politicians, believe the Free Gaza flotilla achieved its aim. It focussed the world's attention on Israel's blockade.
People in Gaza depend largely on humanitarian aid
But the number of rockets has greatly reduced since Israel's major offensive in Gaza 18 months ago. There is still sporadic fire. But on the whole it is ineffectual, with the rockets usually landing in open fields and sometime failing to clear the border. In the past 18 months one Thai farm worker has been killed in Israel by a rocket fired by militants in Gaza. …
After Monday's deaths aboard the Free Gaza flotilla, the Egyptian government opened up the Rafah crossing into Gaza for an indefinite period. Egypt occasionally does this, but usually it is only for a limited number of days. The Egyptian government is also no friend of Hamas, which is an offshoot of the main outlawed opposition party in Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood. … Buses and lorries laden with fridges, cookers and food swept in through the crossing.
People and goods have been using the newly-reopened Rafah crossing
Many Gazans cross the border, if they are allowed, for medical treatment in Egypt. … "The blockade has made everything so expensive," he says. "In Brighton you pay 50 pence (£0.5, $0.7) for a can of Coke. Here in Gaza you pay 5 shekels, almost a pound." Does he support Hamas? "I am not political but the fact is Hamas are the reality for the moment." Muhammad says he lost his cousin in last year's major Israeli offensive in which the United Nations says 1,300 Palestinians and 13 Israelis were killed. But everyone is being punished by Israel, he says. "Life is too hard. People are just waiting for death." …”
Condensed from: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/mid...t/10248969.stm
Billy T comment: Some are not waiting. They prefer to die attacking Israel, but the west bank wall and the border control at Gaza are making that harder, however, “Where there is a will, there is a way.’ It may take time to discover it but it is only a matter of years before the black anthrax filled balloons start drifting over the Israeli border on moonless nights. They probably will first come from Lebanon, not Jordan, but I don’t know much about the prevailing winds. Also it is unlikely that the will be made in Gaza or the Palestinian west bank. In a more advanced Muslim country is more likely.. Israel is really pissing them (>500 million people) off now with its continuation of the high kill ratio policy and blocking aid like fishing rods and cloth, etc.
BTW my earlier post, by memory, falsely stated the December 2008 invasion of Gaza had a kill ratio of >1000 to 13. The UN data given above says Kill Ratio was 100 to 1, not the 77 to1 I had posted.
(Images placed where they were in original article, with original captions now at the side.)
Last edited by Billy T; 06-06-10 at 04:06 PM.
06-06-10, 04:02 PM #1202
Originally Posted by lucy
Your turn. Show me another country that has expanded by military conquest and acquisition in any degree comparable to Israel's, since WWII.
Originally Posted by lucy
Why does Palestine need to "prove" aggression on the part of Israel? Is there some large population of informed people who have doubts on the subject?
Originally Posted by lucy
06-06-10, 04:54 PM #1203
No Iceaura those are not examples of a similar legal situation. Where has there been a precedence where an established nation that occupied a people and their land, like the US or Aussie land for example gave back land that they are actively inhabiting? There is none. The Israeli's have built their state on land that was allocated to them. The international community GAVE them land. The land they were given wasn't even the best land and yet still the Palestinians waged war and lost more land to the newcomers. The neighboring muslim nations then went and waged war with the 'newly established state' and lost! The claims to land is not based on the whether some other country gave them the piece of land its based on what they have done with it since then. From a legal point of view their historical religious claims and ethnic claims to the area is not what legitimizes the State but what they have been able to do with it since then. In that sense it is all theirs.
Where is the cut off? How long do you have to occupy land and build on it and live on it before it is actually yours? What if you can argue that the land you were given is so completely changed due to your own people's efforts, that actually you were the one who CREATED all that is upon the land that the other claims? In other words its no longer the land that 'was'. Answer that first.
Iceaura: Your turn. Show me another country that has expanded by military conquest and acquisition in any degree comparable to Israel's, since WWII.
China's takeover of Tibet. They just took it. They can't even claim to have won it from warfare AFTER they were attacked by the people in question.
Tibet is a historical plateau region that is currently provincial-level autonomous region of People's Republic of China, known as the The Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR). In 1950, following the rise to power of the Communist Party of China under General Mao Zedong, Chinese troops invaded Tibet. China has controlled Tibet ever since. While disputed, Tibet was effectively independent between 1912 and 1950 and for much its long history. China also claims periods in the last thousand years where Tibet was part of its region.
'Ever since 1950, an international debate has existed over Tibet's status as a region within the People's Republic of China and over the legitimacy of movements for Tibetan independence. After the end of the Cold War, international public became increasingly interested in this debate. In 2008, the debate became particularly heated on the international stage. With the 2008 summer Olympics set to occur in China, human rights advocates began shinning light on China's poor human rights record, with some proposing a boycott of the Olympics in protest. Human rights abuses in Tibet were seen simply as a part of this larger story of Chinese government abuses. In early 2008, pro-independence Tibetans staged a large protest against Chinese rule and for independence. The protests were brutally suppressed by the Chinese government. The Dalai Lama's government in exile counted the death toll at around 80 Tibetans. This caused an uproar internationally, and was a main focus of massive protests as the Olympic torch began making its way around the world in March and April of 2008. In response, pro-China, anti-Tibetan-independence protests occurred around the world, composed mainly of Chinese people, who are mostly opposed to an independent Tibet. Both camps bring to bear an impressive array of arguments to support their positions.'
Iceaura: Why does Palestine need to "prove" aggression on the part of Israel? Is there some large population of informed people who have doubts on the subject? Why does Palestine need to "prove" aggression on the part of Israel? Is there some large population of informed people who have doubts on the subject?
No. Iceaura when I say you cannot prove aggression with aggression is that you cannot say the Palestinians are victims when they have used suicide bombings and rocket launches. That is aggressive action and for all your claims of 'you did this first', the other side can show the same. Sure there are entire nations that have doubts about the subject. You have already taken a side and so that blinds you to some extent to a broader picture. Ironically that would be true even if you took the opposing side. So for example, it can be proven that the Israeli's were attacked by palestinians right after the UN treaty and then again by their neighbors.
You fool! The people of N. Korea and Myanmar are much worse off than the people of Gaza and the West Bank! You stupid stupid fool!
This is why I believe its simply a matter of 'fashionable causes' not causes by need.
Why Iceaura if the need is so great in Gaza did Hamas refuse their aid package? N. Korea never refuses aid even from their enemies...
06-06-10, 05:01 PM #1204
Billy T doesn't that picture of the old woman sitting by large aid supplies strike you as strange?
What could it be? Rice maybe? Did you know Billy that Hamas of Gaza REFUSED the aid that was allotted? Yes! That's how desperate the population is! Hamas said they would take 'all or nothing' because they didn't want the necessities without the items not permitted by the blockade. In short they were in a position to say 'no' to aid. DO NOT TALK TO ME ABOUT THEIR STRIFE IF THEY ARE IN A POSITION TO REFUSE AID!!! Especially after people died to bring it to them!! They are full of shit!!!
Never have I ever seen such large supplies of aid lying around willy nilly with local people napping in its midst. NEVER!
LOL! Yeah right they are really really desperate:
26 May 2010 13:11:00 GMT
Written by: Frank Nyakairu
NAIROBI, (AlertNet) - Almost 1 million displaced Somalis in need of aid cannot be reached by
United Nations refugee and food agencies because of growing insecurity and the threat of kidnappings to staff.
Fighting between government troops and Islamic rebel groups in the failed Horn of Africa nation has killed at least 21,000 people since the start of 2007 and driven another 1.5 million from their homes, triggering one of the world's worst humanitarian emergencies.
"The U.N. is trying very hard to deliver aid to many Somalis by constantly balancing the need for aid and the risk of having our staff kidnapped," Bruno Geddo, UNHCR's country representative for Somalia, told AlertNet in a telephone interview.
Geddo said around 900,000 people in south and central Somalia are beyond reach because of the insecurity. Kidnappings are common, with militia groups and gangs seeking to extract ransoms.
According to Geddo, 42 aid workers have been killed in Somalia since 2008 and 33 have been kidnapped, with ten still in captivity.
Your all full of shit! ALL OF YOU!!!
06-06-10, 05:09 PM #1205
06-06-10, 05:12 PM #1206
06-06-10, 05:48 PM #1207
Originally Posted by lucy
so have various States of the Union in the US, now and again - the latest "stimulus package" say - .
The US refused aid after a couple of hurricanes, including Katrina, from several countries, despite obvious need.
There are many reasons, some good some bad, for Hamas to refuse certain aid given under Israeli terms. There are no defensible reasons I know of for Israel to blockade Gaza as it has - to create misery in a penned up and defenseless people.
Originally Posted by lucy
Last edited by iceaura; 06-06-10 at 06:06 PM.
06-06-10, 05:54 PM #1208
Show me evidence that those nations refused aid when they were cut off, desperate and starving? Show me evidence of that! N. Korea teaches its people on a regular basis that the US is the source of all their problems and yet they will take any aid that comes from the US. They have medical equipment and bags of rice with the US flag branded right on front and they still accept it!! This I know for a fact!
You compare 'states' and their aid packages in the US with that of aid need nations? Really?
Are you that privileged that a state in the US is somehow like Darfur? Or some other nation that is thoroughly dependent on aid?
Then you are an ignorant git and have no business discussing the topic!
06-06-10, 06:05 PM #1209
"...Tel Aviv University professor and noted military analyst Reuven Pedatzur believes that Iron Dome "is all a scam ... The flight-time of a Kassam rocket to Sderot is 14 seconds, while the time the Iron Dome needs to identify a target and fire is something like 15 seconds. This means it can't defend against anything fired from fewer than five kilometers; but it probably couldn't defend against anything fired from 15 km., either." He concludes that due to the massive disparity in the cost of the Iron Dome missiles ($100,000) and the typical Kassam rocket ($5) means that the Iron Dome "issue has no logic to it whatsoever. ..."
Billy T comment:
Much worse cost ratio than I guessed in post 1183 !
Many advanced military projects are basically "scams" to transfer huge amounts of taxpayer money to large companies - As president Eisenhower warned in his farewell address: - The "military industrial complex" (his phrase) is a real threat to the US security and democracy.
Too bad there is no profit in taking decade old CIWS from warehouses and actually saving Israeli lives by installing them near Sderot and other small towns the Gaza rockets can reach.
Perhaps Iron dome is Palestinian plot to bankrupt the already shaky Israeli finances?
Last edited by Billy T; 06-06-10 at 06:37 PM.
06-06-10, 06:09 PM #1210
Someone should inform the best minds of TAU that they only need a defense from weapons fired in anger; remove the anger, remove the threat. Look at the missiles Israel is rattling down in silos and submarines- more anger isn't helping Einstein.
06-06-10, 06:09 PM #1211
Originally Posted by lucy
The desperation cuts both ways - increasing the motive for refusal, in step with the need for the supplies themselves.
06-06-10, 06:09 PM #1212
06-06-10, 06:22 PM #1213
It seems international calls for lifting (or easing) the blockade are being sustained, as well as call for an inquiry into the assault on the flotilla. Israel is resisting all attempts at this, as they did in regard to Cast Lead.
Former British Foreign Secretary David Miliband strongly urged Israel Sunday to lift its sea blockade of Gaza. Miliband, who is the current favorite to head Britain's recently defeated Labor Party, was interviewed on British television.Israel's prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, today dismissed a UN proposal for an international commission to investigate last week's assault on a flotilla of aid ships.
IDF releases names of flotilla 'terrorists'
Army claims terror activists among passengers of Marmara, some aiding Iran, al-Qaeda, HamasTurkey's Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu denied that the IHH, which was behind the flotilla to Gaza, is a terror group.
"If Israel has the name of a terrorist who was on the flotilla, it should give it to us and we will check it," he said.
06-06-10, 06:43 PM #1214
Have you never read: http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=115
I would hope you do as at times you are quite logical and, I think, not so filled with hate that you want a few Israelis killed to justify the high kill ratio policy.
Last edited by Billy T; 06-06-10 at 06:55 PM.
06-06-10, 06:49 PM #1215
06-06-10, 06:53 PM #1216
06-06-10, 07:08 PM #1217
In general...it would be effective at shooting down larger missiles fired from longer distances. I think it is the Fajr-5 missile which Iran keeps trying to get to Gaza...that is a larger payload of weaponry and much more significant damage would be the result.
06-06-10, 07:14 PM #1218
As targeted, operation Iran Dome is most effective at spending as many of the last biggest US military-welfare checks in Israel as can be spent there.
06-06-10, 07:26 PM #1219
Why do Americans think they fund everything with their little bit of aid? As if the rest of the world is without the capability to maintain themselves. If you consider that their total AID to Israel is less than 2% of GDP...the US is not as big to Israel as they are to numerous other countries.
06-06-10, 07:32 PM #1220
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