09-22-10, 09:13 AM #321
Early adopters will buy up these EVs bring down the price as infrastructure grows to allow for higher and higher production rates.
See, the comparison to CDs is telling. For most people, CD was an improvement of quality, and it didn't degrade like vinyl records do through scratching, and offered seamless, sideless play, and playlists across auto-changers. IE, it was worth paying the extra for. Electric vehicles cost more, don't go as fast, or as far, and take an age to recharge.
Other Car companies are starting out with hybrids, now plug in hybrids as the batteries get larger for the same price.
09-22-10, 09:24 AM #322
HAhhahahaha, OK according to this web site:
There is just ONE Electric charging place in my city, inside a multi-storey car park. 13A sockets are available to charge electric vehicles, although I've never noticed one.
I just wish the pro camp would wake up to the real life limitations. Must be all that Patchouli overpowering the smell of coffee.
09-22-10, 09:50 AM #323
09-22-10, 09:54 AM #324
The insult was that hippies are associated with electric vehicle technology, which is ridiculous.
09-22-10, 02:05 PM #325
Originally Posted by syg
and at half the fuel cost, possibly less,
without a single cold start problem, overheating concern, air cleaner question,
your standards of usefulness and convenience may modify themselves a bit.
You may just rent that vacation car - heck, make it a camper.
Not with the Tesla. Try mass producing Porsche and see how much its price comes down
And the currently handbuilt Tesla would benefit much, much more - at a marginal cost in performance, possibly, but little loss of comparative advantage.
Last edited by iceaura; 09-22-10 at 02:10 PM.
09-22-10, 02:17 PM #326
I read from users that anytime when they hit a hill, their gauge went down like the Titanic. Also for some reason the tires wore off quite frequently...
Anyhow, don't preach, just show me the advancement...
09-22-10, 02:20 PM #327
The best electric vehicles that exist today are bicycles (or trikes). The best gas-powered vehicles that exist today in terms of mileage are motorized bicycles.
09-22-10, 02:24 PM #328
Spidergoat is right, once peakoil can not be denied, there will be major changes to people's lifestyles. Also let's mention that trucking is still going to be done by petrol based trucks >> increases the price of everything...
09-22-10, 02:26 PM #329
Here is a solution from the McLaren team, it is still a gas car, but costs around 9K:
600kg, 80 mph speed and 450 miles range
It has no doors, it opens up the top goingforward. 3 people (not Americans) can sit in it...
09-22-10, 03:07 PM #330
09-22-10, 03:17 PM #331
A) In town commuter trips aren't on the freeway.
B) Repairs to electric cars are much less simply because there are less moving parts.
C) Goalposts that are movable make lousy targets.
Now, on to the rest of the thread.
Thanks for starting it btw.
09-22-10, 04:27 PM #332
£28.990 is not a reasonable price. In fact, it sucks. A car of similar performance could be had for less than a third of the price. That means it's got to make £20,000 of savings over it's life AND do everything the petrol car could do. Oh, sorry, it can't, 'cos it's got limited range, crap performance, and takes an age to recharge.
Also lets check that performance you say is so bad. An equivalent to the Nissan Leaf is the Nissan Sentra ($16,270 to $20,830), the Sentra can do 0-60 mph in 7-9.5 sec depending on model, the Leaf can do 0-60 in 9 sec.
That maybe surprising for a 80 kw motor, compared to the 102-152 kw sentra engines could put out, but not surprising when considering the difference between electric motor and internal combustion engines. The leaf's motor puts out 233 Nm of torque, while the sentra engines can only put out 199-244 Nm at near max rpms. Electrics motors put out full torque at 0 rpm and maintain that torque roughly steady up to certain max rpm before degrading. ICE puts no torque at 0 rpm and has no steady torque profile, that why it needs multiple gear speed transmissions to try to average the torque and keep the rpms low as it accelerates, losing time in switching gears and grinding clutch. An electric car only needs one set gear and no clutch, its acceleration is constant and uninterrupted from 0-60.
As for range, the average driver only drives ~30 miles a day, 100 miles range will satisfy 98% of your driving needs, and if you need longer just get a PHEV. Considering charge times the Leaf can be rapidly charged at a charging station in 30 minutes. Slow charging has it advantages, you can charge at home, using off-peak power at night, assuming you do your daily commutes of less then 100 miles you will never need to see a gas station again! With the Leaf you will be paying less then 2 cents per mile, compared with 10 cents per mile minimum with the Sentra (at $3 per gallon, 34 mpg). Assuming 15000 miles per year that <$250 per year on the Leaf, >$1,324 with the Sentra. Considering the final price difference between the Leaf and Sentra (with all rebates) is -$550, you already made a profit from day one and will save $1074 per year on fueling. Add in that the Leaf has no motor oil, oil filter, fuel filters, clutch, spark plugs, fuel injector, air filters, etc, the maintenance costs will be much lower as well.
Hybrids aren't the solution either. OK around town, on short journeys, but over long journeys, on fast motorways, the benefits are lost.
09-22-10, 04:31 PM #333
Last edited by ElectricFetus; 09-22-10 at 07:04 PM.
09-22-10, 05:22 PM #334
09-22-10, 09:36 PM #335
Originally Posted by syg
Superior performance, fuel cost, and low hassle/cost convenience of ownership of the vehicles have been shown. Lack of range and deficient variety of models is acknowledged.
Reduction of reliance on intercontinentally imported fuel has been shown, along with lower pollution burdens and lower quantities of emitted hazardous waste. The societal disadvantages - lack of charging facilities, lack of mass production efficiencies, and the like - are acknowledged.
Alternatives act to exclude. The entire society has been set up to handle the problems with the cars we have (from a huge investment in facilities and training for the continual minor repairs and maintenance, to widespread piping and manufacture and transport and storage of the huge quantities of toxic fuel needed everywhere, to costly building codes for safe parking etc - we even have detached garages, which lower one's house insurance rates due to their isolation of the family gas engines from the expensive living quarters). This overhead cost is largely sunk, and seems to be the major obstacle to an otherwise timely and beneficial transition.
09-22-10, 11:05 PM #336
If we allow for a 20 year time frame to get the technology and the number of electric vehicles up to speed, the picture becomes very different.
For example : the whole issue of range limitation becomes moot if we can recharge the batteries fast enough. An electric vehicle can be designed and built with a simple electric cord and plug that pulls out and plugs into a simple socket. If recharge took only minutes, then no problem.
Researchers already are chasing that one down.
An electric vehicle that recharges in less than 10 minutes is almost a certainty given time.
So, in 20 years, you are off on vacation in your electric camper van. You know that, for safety reasons, you the driver, should stop for a break at least every two hours. You drive for two hours and the batteries are getting low. No problem. It is time for a safety break anyway. Pull in to a suitable recharge site, and plug in. Use your credit card to pay, at a cost ridiculously cheap compared to petrol. Have a cup of coffee and visit the toilet. In 10 minutes, both car and driver are fully recharged and ready to go.
The coffee you bought cost more than the recharge.
Allowing 20 years to develop, and $$$ to be made, you can guarantee that lots of recharge places, with attached cafe, will be available.
09-22-10, 11:22 PM #337
The HUGE new market in motorized personal vehicles is in China and India...neither they or other large markets....Brazil, indonesia, Japan, Germany, Russia, etc. are 'going electric'.
Electric car technology has fizzled... a dead end side show. A billion invested in a more efficicient carbon burning engine is a billion far better spent.
This is a science forum. There is no 'magic ' solution with batteries. The physics just doesn't work to make a battery operated vehicle do the job of an internal combustion engine.
Only about 3% of the North American car market is made up of the most efficient carbon based automobiles. 97% of buyers don't choose the most efficiency NOW given the choice of internal combustion engines....they are certinly not going to choose an battery operated vehicle when it is even less practical.
More expensive, less practical....ain't going to happen.
09-23-10, 03:27 AM #338
Lets see a Nissan Leaf will cost $32,780 here in the states, but you get a $7,500 federal rebate, so that is $25,280, then depending on the state you can get another $5,000 off, so that's $20,280 in the end.
Also lets check that performance you say is so bad. (pointless numbers deleted)
As for range, the average driver only drives ~30 miles a day, 100 miles range will satisfy 98% of your driving needs, and if you need longer just get a PHEV.
Can a PHEV pull a1000kg caravan?
Considering charge times the Leaf can be rapidly charged at a charging station in 30 minutes.
Slow charging has it advantages, you can charge at home, using off-peak power at night,
With the Leaf you will be paying less then 2 cents per mile, compared with 10 cents per mile minimum with the Sentra (at $3 per gallon, 34 mpg). Assuming 15000 miles per year that <$250 per year on the Leaf, >$1,324 with the Sentra.
So, let's recap. I can't recharge an EV at my current residence because we have on street parking. EVs work for short commutes, and I don't commute. EVs can't pull loads, and I need that capability several times per year. EVs cost three times more than the last vehicle we bought (admittedly 2nd hand, but it's a customised Japanese import) and only hit the price/performance figures quoted _if the batteries last as stated_ Given that it can get pretty cold here in winter, and pretty warm in summer, that is yet to be seen. Oh, and the Leaf is slow. Most people in the UK drive at about 80mph on the motorway, and the top speed is 87, and I presume that is unloaded. Add a family, and top box full of the kid's stuff, it's going to be a long tedious journey to the seaside.
You know what, ... I think biofuel is better alternative. I'll put my money on that.
09-23-10, 03:51 AM #339
As I read the objections to electric vehicles, it seems to me they are all based on the assumption that ev's will not improve. That is like looking at a 1960's 12 inch TV and saying it will never get any better!
I have said that it will take 20 years before ev's make a big impact on the private motor vehicle market. I stick to that. Over that 20 year period, prices will tumble. All the arguments about expensive Tesla's and the like will be about as valid as saying that you cannot buy a flat screen TV because it costs $20,000! Which the first ones did.
Lithium battery technology is improving all the time. I pointed out a new approach which will permit recharging a car in 10 minutes or less. Not much longer than refilling a petrol car. Capacity is also improving. In 20 years, the range will not be 150 kms, but 500 kms.
Sure, today's electric cars have drawbacks. In 20 years, the average ev will be seen as far more desirable than a petrol car. No emissions. Minimal maintenance and repair. Very low running cost.
How about being a bit more forward looking, guys? The whole history of technology over the past 100 years shows continuous and massive improvement for consumer goods.
09-23-10, 05:39 AM #340
Your 'assumption' is a false logic that doesn't apply to science. One that links two unrelated events to give support to the second one. The improvement in 1960's TVs has zilch to do with the potential of EVs or not. It neither adds or subtracts from the potential.
'We can do it if we put our mind to it' is not based on the properties of physics and, even when possible, often not based in the reality of choosing rationally between alternatives.
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