Electric cars are a pipe dream

**Billy T** · 06-10-12, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Michael

Let me make sure I have you correct. In terms of weight, a battery can carry more energy than pure hydrocarbon?

Not that I know of. I replied to question on efficiency and in my reply even put "efficiency" in all caps. Yes most batteries can have twice the EFFICIENCY of an IC fossil fuel engine.

**billvon** · 06-11-12, 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by Aman shah

That's an intelligent solution indeed!Why not all governments of the world do collaborative effort to make this happen?

Money. For the cost of doing that you could build high speed trains to every major city in the US.

I think we have solutions.The cleanest example is Model S.

So is the Roadster. But both are priced far beyond the reach of 99.9% of the world.

**universaldistress** · 06-16-12, 09:45 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18409830

**Trippy** · 06-28-12, 10:36 PM

I thought this might be of interest, given the discussion here:
Spray on battery invented

Wouldn't that represent a significant saving in both weight and space for an electric car?

**billvon** · 06-29-12, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by Trippy

I thought this might be of interest, given the discussion here:
Spray on battery invented

Wouldn't that represent a significant saving in both weight and space for an electric car?

Probably not. From the article:

"When they were charged, the batteries powered a set of light-emitting diodes for six hours, providing a steady 2.4 volts."

That's about 240 milliwatt-hours, or about .001% of the capacity you'd need for an EV battery. To put it another way you'd need 100,000 coffee mug batteries to replace the battery in a Leaf.

**Billy T** · 06-29-12, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by Trippy

I thought this might be of interest, given the discussion here:
Spray on battery invented

Wouldn't that represent a significant saving in both weight and space for an electric car?

Speaking of strange batteries (of low energy) in a Brazilian University report they tell of a living bacteria, that easily reproduces, and is piezo-electic. So when placed between two flexible thin electrodes, for example on bottom of your shoe, will make enough power to light an LED when you step down.

The report did not tell what battery bugs eat, or how long they live. Possible as long as the shoes, if electrodes have micro-holes.

**Trippy** · 06-29-12, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by billvon

Probably not. From the article:

"When they were charged, the batteries powered a set of light-emitting diodes for six hours, providing a steady 2.4 volts."

That's about 240 milliwatt-hours, or about .001% of the capacity you'd need for an EV battery. To put it another way you'd need 100,000 coffee mug batteries to replace the battery in a Leaf.

Yeah, but they used what... One layer? Unfortunately I don't see a great basis for comparison.

**Aman shah** · 07-05-12, 05:04 AM

Ah!Now the discussion is becoming interesting.be it bacteria based battery or Paint based batty,what we need is efficiency.

**Aman shah** · 07-05-12, 05:08 AM

Originally Posted by sigurdV

But my point is that the electric car on an inductive road is not fixed in the same way as a train or tolley is!

It can maneuver as it wish, if it leaves the inductive road for a non inductive road then it runs on its own battery as long as it lasts!

It cannot (yet) drive as long on its battery/batteries as a petrol car can on its full tank...
But the electric car on an inductive road need not stop for filling an empty tank.

I accept that keeping the battery on full charge in the electric car, by magnetic induction while driving,
may be a costly idea, but the car can still go anywhere a petrol car can: Its freedom is no less!

SigurdV,the point is that all vehicles do not travel at same speed.So if a vehicle travels faster it should recharge faster,whereas a cable carries a slow current.In that case you would need high capacity many parallel cables and maintaining such an infrastructure on a large scale could be more difficult than that of a similar infrastructure for trains powered through electrical cables, because of continuous shifting of cables and continuous loads on cables.Something similar to fatique.
I am not saying its impossible,but we have to pay attention to many problems and design a robust system for such transportation.

**DaS Energy** · 07-24-12, 07:12 AM

Having much researched the electric vehicle I am unable to find any claim to wattage draw from the batteries.

A modern one litre turbine generator spinning at 60 RPM produces 720 watts when ambient heat is at minus 10* Celsius. This wattage increases at higher temperature or greater volume of turbine flow each second.

This method does away with need for batteries however the turbine volume and heat need would need be set at a point to ensure enough electricity can be generated to the ambient heat temperature setting minimum.

Would much like to hear from any who may know of the wattage draw needed to propell a vehicle on flat surface at 100Ks per hour.

Peter

**billvon** · 07-24-12, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by DaS Energy

Would much like to hear from any who may know of the wattage draw needed to propell a vehicle on flat surface at 100Ks per hour.

My Leaf takes about 13kW to maintain 50mph. (or 80kph.)

**DaS Energy** · 07-24-12, 12:03 PM

Hello billvon,

I do much appreciate your reply and send my genuine thank you.

13kW equates to a one litre CO2 turbine receiving liquid or gas at minus 10* Celsius and rotating at 1,100 RPM.

This by some may not define an electric vehicle per se, however a battery electric vehicle requires a recharge source, and Open Technology does provide such as part of the vehicle. It does not take away the from being Clean and Green and many a fuel can provide minus 10* Celsius heat and further so, if ambient temperature not used as the boiler heater.

Cheers Peter

**billvon** · 07-24-12, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by DaS Energy

13kW equates to a one litre CO2 turbine receiving liquid or gas at minus 10* Celsius and rotating at 1,100 RPM. This by some may not define an electric vehicle per se, however a battery electric vehicle requires a recharge source, and Open Technology does provide such as part of the vehicle. It does not take away the from being Clean and Green and many a fuel can provide minus 10* Celsius heat and further so, if ambient temperature not used as the boiler heater.

Well, you always need a temperature differential to give you the energy potential to begin with, so you have to maintain that somehow. If you burn oil to create the differential it's not much different than a combustion engine. (Or you can use ambient temperature on the hot side - but then you need to refrigerate the cold side and that takes even more energy.)

**DaS Energy** · 07-24-12, 01:45 PM

Hello billvon,

My appologies for any confusion. The temperaturers quoted are for the hot side of the boiler.

I agree that any use of a fossil fuel will emitt Carbon Dioxide, however there are more fuels that dont emitt Carbon Dioxide than there are fossil fuels.

Should the hot side of boiler be greater than ambient temperature is sufficient, however cooling is altready built in (CO2 being the Refrigerant R74. This you may experince by putting your hand in front of a CO2 fire extinguisher and squeezing the trigger) and oddly enough requires no energy other than falling from a turbine to result in flash cooling.

The entire technology has only four moving part, two bearings, the turbine runner and its shaft, so its cheaper and longer lasting than any engine currently known to man.

Cheers Peter

**billvon** · 07-24-12, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by DaS Energy

Should the hot side of boiler be greater than ambient temperature is sufficient, however cooling is altready built in (CO2 being the Refrigerant R74. This you may experince by putting your hand in front of a CO2 fire extinguisher and squeezing the trigger) and oddly enough requires no energy other than falling from a turbine to result in flash cooling.

If you are relying on exhausting CO2 to provide your cold sink that can work, but your engine will be limited in energy by the amount of CO2 it has available to exhaust. (Also of questionable superiority to fossil fuel engines since both exhaust CO2.)

The entire technology has only four moving part, two bearings, the turbine runner and its shaft, so its cheaper and longer lasting than any engine currently known to man.

Cheers Peter

Many engines are that simple, but again, you need a temperature differential to make them work (or need to exhaust something, which means you run out of "fuel.")

**quadraphonics** · 07-24-12, 03:47 PM

So, I'm curious: exactly how many electric cars need to be on the road, and for how long, before a thread named "Electric cars are a pipe dream" is put to rest?

**Syzygys** · 07-24-12, 03:50 PM

Production needs to be in the millions, to take it seriously. Or at least 20% of the running automobiles should be electric...

In other words, not in the next 2 decades...

**DaS Energy** · 07-24-12, 04:37 PM

Hello billvon,

I agree to work there need be a temperature differential.

However there be no exhaust from the turbine/generator but there be so from the boiler if fuel is burnt for heating.

Although the exhaust plays no part in the cooling mechanism.

The device in fact is a cross converted gas and electric electric fridge. See web How things work) The boiler of a gas fridge brings the liquid to temperature of high pressure gas. However instead of heat putting high pressure against a restrictor plate, which is the same thing the compressor in your electric fridge does, it puts that pressure against a turbine. Cooling is completed in same manner as enjoyed by both fridge type, in that after the gas/liquid is forced through the tiny hole of the restrictor plate it enters an expansion chamber held at vacuum in compressor models. In turbine case the restrictor plate of the fridge is replaced by a turbine.

This diagram shows the device layout for both Critical and Supercritcal Co2. For Critical CO2 follow the cooling loop to heat collector not boiler. http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...Energy/DAS.png

This scale of temperature to presure goes only as high as to Supercritical. Minus
40* Celsius to plus 31.2* Celsius. A lower temperature is needed of the CO2 entering the boiler and higher temperature of the CO2 entering the turbine is needed, so providing the minimum 9 bar pressure differential needed for operation.

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...O2Critical.png

I also have the chart for supercritical if of assistance to you.

Cheers Peter

**quadraphonics** · 07-24-12, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by Syzygys

Production needs to be in the millions, to take it seriously. Or at least 20% of the running automobiles should be electric...

Well, okay, that's an answer.

**spidergoat** · 07-24-12, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by quadraphonics

So, I'm curious: exactly how many electric cars need to be on the road, and for how long, before a thread named "Electric cars are a pipe dream" is put to rest?

They could all be electric and it would still be a pipe dream that they will solve our energy problems. No one has ever denied that electric cars are possible, indeed they were among the first cars.