Jesus' Lost Years

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by evolove, Aug 15, 2002.

  1. evolove Registered Senior Member

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    64
    I posted this somewhere else, theres two posts here, in one, so it's pretty long, any comments would be great

    "My yoke is easy, my burden is light" Math.11'30 KJV

    There have been three western travelers to the Northern Idian/Kashmir regins, they never knew each other amd had around fifty year intervals between them they were each shown scrolls by Buddhist Monks that say Jesus, or a man called Issa (his name in Hebrew) came from Isreal and traveled around Kashmir, Northern India and Nepal, to learn from the Hindu and Buddhist Masters, he arrived when he was 14 and left when he was 28 with the idea of going back to Isreal to free his people, they mention specificaly that amoungst other thngs he learnt how to heal, caste out evil spirits and raise the dead, for centuries around this region there has been stories told about a Saint Issa and are still told today, and whats more is that on one of the trade routes through the Middle East to India there is a spring that was supposedly blessed by Jesus that is still caled Issa's Spring, so I suppose it hasn't gone dry,
    Considering that Jesus would have been very willing to learn about the Soul, God etc. and the fact that he was payed a vistit by three "wise men from the East" at his birth, well you get the idea, but when you couple this with the fact that there never was a "Trinity" in the Jewish doctorine until Jesus showed up, but the Hindus had the Sat, Chitta, Ananda for at least 1,000 years prior, and the Buddhist the Saymbokaya, Nimanyakaya and Dharmakaya scince Saykumini Buddha (SP.ahh), 500 years prior, the Jews already had the Holy Spirit and The Father, all that was needed was the only begotten son and to put them in order, the Hindus also preach that the the only way to God(The Ultimate Reality ie. God) is through the Chitta, their is also evidence to sujest that the very word Christ was taken from the language of Indian/Kashmir region and put into Greek language when Alexander the Great ventured there, he also had a great interest in Vedic philosophy,
    Their are many paralles in the Christian and Vedic philosophies(and it's progressors) but one that I find startling is Jesus proclaimed relationship with The Father,
    "I am in my Father and my Father is in me"
    "I do not know all that my Father knows"
    Now these to statemants taken together fit in exactly with the Eastern deffinitions of God union (Samadhi and Nirvana) Krishna in the Bagavad Gita speaking from God, or God through him, says "I am in all men and all men are in me" implying exactly as Jesus does, union, at oneness, but still with a degree of seperation, as both Jesus and the Eastern sages do, if their wasn't a degree of seperation, however small, the second statement is made void,

    but I came across the quote from Mathew,

    "My yoke is easy, my burden is light" Math.11'30 KJV

    Yoga means union, union with the ultimate reality, the cosmic self, God, the root word for yoga and yoke, is thought to be the same, a Sanskrit word,
    Prayer, fasting and surreder to God are integeral parts of Eastern Yoga, the same in Jewish and Christian yoga, but I think that there was something more that has scince be lost in time, but why and how I don''t know, one thing is that higher Yogic meathods of both East and West were only be passed on to worthy people, and were kept very secret, right up until the 19th century, in both erea's, so maybe this is why, can anybody tell me where I might find a lit of the sucessors of the 12 apostles

    If anybody can offer any evidence for or against any of this I would be very greatful,

    2nd. Part
    Many people made the journey from the Dead Sea area into Kashmir and India, there were many who used the one od the old trade routes that went past the Spring that Jesus reputedly blessed,
    This is what I come to know about Jesus going there, in more detial,

    Their was a religious explorer, named Norwitch, who had great interest in Eastern Philosophies, this was in the 19th. century, he came across a very isolated monastary hidden in the ruged terrain some where around Kasmir, Pakistan, I've forgetten exactly where, when talking to the Monks, (he stayed there with them for a while and gained their trust) one of the older more imporant monks told him that they had a scroll that they would like him to see, it was dictated to him through a translator, the scroll said that at the time Jesus was on the Earth, their was a great saint that came to this area, Issa - Jesus, he walkied all around this region with soem Brahmin Priests who wrote the scolls, he preformed many miracles, healings ect. And stories have been told about him ever scince, the scrolls say that he arived from Isreal at the age of 14, then left at the age of 28 with the intention of going back to Isreal to "free his people," this is the story that has been told scince, along with his miracle actions, by the people seperate from the knowledge of the scolls,
    After Norwith got back he wrote a book about what he found, and was basicaly disowned by every one who new about it, One of his greatest critics went to the region, to the monastry, but was told that the scrolls didn't exist, but in his book (Norwitch) writes that the only reason he was shown them was be cause he initaily learnt all of the customs of the local people and spent enough time with the monks, I think that he was ill which is why they let him stay with them at all, to, as I said, gain their respect and trust,
    Then a number of decades latter their was another guy, strictly an explorer, with no interest in the religions at all, he had heard of Norwitch and what he claimed at an earlier period, but nothing of details, maybe he was the one who got sick, I can't remember but he saw the same scrolls, but only devoted a paragraph of his book, written about what he saw, so there is no reason to sujest that he lied about what he saw, as he didn't expect that he would get any recognition for it, and his book wasn't widely read in the first place as it was a travel journel, but basicaly confermed what Norwitch had said,
    Then their was a third lady who, in the 60's or 70's, went to saty in a Buddhist monastry in India, she no idea of the scrolls existance, but was one day shown a copy that these monks had in there possesion, once agin conferming the existance, and actualy took photographs of them,

    So either the scrolls are the invention of a monk, who had heard of Jesus, or they are true historical documents
    If the first were true their would be no stories being told about Saint Issa by the lower castes as they has no knowledge of the scrolls either, and as archiological digs have proven, not only are the stories of these people true renditions of real events, they sometimes are even less spectacular than the true facts,

    I'm sure I'm missing some things, my memories not the greatest, but thats about the jist of it
     
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  3. Ekimklaw Believer in God Registered Senior Member

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    This is all very interesting. It is true that there is no written record of Jesus' activities from around age 12 until around age 30. Stories of him traveling to India or "the East", have been promulgated by a lady named Elizabeth Claire Prophet, in her books "The Lost Teachings of Jesus", but there is no evidence supporting this claim.

    She teaches a heretical view of Christ, and is generally shunned by all but the most "out there" new age type.

    Some even claim Jesus had a family there in "the east".

    Most non-Christians will tend to believe, agree with, or support these "Jesus Went To India" stories, which have very little, or no evidence to support them, while at the same time they reject the Biblical gospels which have far more credablility. Strange...

    -Mike
     
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  5. evolove Registered Senior Member

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    Do mean no evidence out side of the things she sites, or none at all? There are supposed to be monastic records that, like a guest book, show that an Issa stayed their, in this erea at that time, which she doesn't mention, but if Elizibeth Claire Prophet is a False Porphet could somebody tell me, please!
     
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  7. Increan Sage Registered Senior Member

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    Re: Re: Jesus' Lost Years

    So, what if there is no or little evidence to support it. There is no or little evidence to support even jesus existing, yet you still believe in him.

    Christians think weird.
    :bugeye:
     
  8. evolove Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    64
    Acctualy there is a bit of evidence that supports Jesus' existance, and I believe that Jesus going to India perfectly fits with the Gosples, It makes a hell of a lot more sense acctualy, and I'm along way from New Age, so please don't try and define me yet,
     
  9. Increan Sage Registered Senior Member

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    358
    You talk about this bit of evidence, but don't say what it is and the bible is not credible evidence.
     
  10. tony1 Jesus is Lord Registered Senior Member

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    2,279
    Re: Re: Jesus' Lost Years

    *Originally posted by Ekimklaw
    This is all very interesting. It is true that there is no written record of Jesus' activities from around age 12 until around age 30. Stories of him traveling to India or "the East", have been promulgated by a lady named Elizabeth Claire Prophet, in her books "The Lost Teachings of Jesus", but there is no evidence supporting this claim.
    *

    There is some evidence here...

    And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
    Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
    And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
    And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

    (Matthew 13:54-57, KJV).

    The people listening to him wouldn't have acted like that if he'd gone to India.
    They'd have said that's what you get for going to India.

    *Originally posted by Increan
    You talk about this bit of evidence, but don't say what it is and the bible is not credible evidence.
    *

    It's a lot more credible than anything else that's written down.
     
  11. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    10,943
    Increan:

    A: There is some mention of Jesus outside the Gospels.
    B: The existance of a Jewish rabble-rouser in that period of time seems easy enough to accept.
    C: There's really no convincing evidence that he did not exist.
    D: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, as Carl Sagan said.
    E: The accounts in the Gospels mesh well enough to be accounts of the same person, but not well enough (i.e the different accounts of Jesus' last words, the accounts of his riding into Jerusalum on a donkey and a colt, etc) to be later forgeries - at least forgeries by the same person.

    Many courtroom lawyers consider it a good sign when eyewitness accounts differ slightly - they say it makes conspiricy between witnesses seem less likely. I think this applies here.

    *Shrugs*
    Faith is a powerful thing.

    Tony1:

    I don't think that is evidence.

    Mat 13:1
    The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
    13:2
    And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.

    And then there are various likenings of the kingdom of heaven onto various things. And then there is

    Mat 13:51
    Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
    13:52
    Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of
    heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
    13:53
    And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed thence.

    I think it's much simpler to say that the passage you highlighted is referring to Jesus' teaching by the sea side, where His listeners listen well, and then returning to his own country where his listeners were "offended in him". Thus the remark "A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house."

    Which is quite wise, but never mind this.
     
  12. evolove Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    64
    That still doen't discount Jesus going to India, as I said the evidence is pretty strong, if it's reliable, and if you know about India culture it extremlily (to the nth. degree) that they would make these stories up based on travelers tales, fused with their own,

    I did fing this though, from a Christian site:

    "Well, the ancient world was not quite as benighted or as fragmented as we sometimes think. Ideas have a way of spreading out. Remember that Jesus' Israel was part, albeit reluctantly, of the great Roman Empire. The Empire maintained trading and cultural relations with the East and in particular India. India had been the goal of Alexander the Great's last aborted campaign. Cleopatra may have considered fleeing to India after Actiun. In short, India was far from an unknown place in Jesus' world. Some two and a half centuries before Jesus, a remarkable Emperor reigned in India. His name was Ashoka and he converted to Buddhism. Ashoka sent out missionaries to carry the Buddha's message far and wide. We know some of those missionaries made it as far west as Syria.

    There is also a tradition that holds that Jesus traveled to the East in the years not discussed in the Bible. There are local traditions of Jesus' presence in Afghanistan, Iran, and even Pakistan and India. However there is no way to know when these traditions arose. "

    As I said very, very, very, very, unlikely that the stories were made up, but not an impossiblity,
    And what this doesn't mention is that India was a spiritual Mecca for any relgion in this time, and would have been well know to the Jews for their Saints, and I not sure if I noted this, but the Three Wise Men from the East is pretty important, they may have only come from futher East than Isreal, but maybe further than that, he could have in any case realised their wisdom, or been told of it, and went to see them latter on in life, and a Child becomes an adult at around the time Jesus disapeared (In Jewish culture, I think anyway) so he would have been free to travel, especialy being the Son of God and all,
    But just thoughts at this stage
     
  13. Sorry, That's Arabic, not Hebrew, (in which His name is Y'shua, (Joshua in English)).

    I think that there are at least 3 theories that are equally valid:
    1) Since Arabs call Jesus 'Issa', it wouldn't be too hard to guess why there is this legend of Jesus living in India. When they came through that area, they talked about the Good Muslim "Issa" to the local Hindu population. ( the Koran teaches that Jesus was a muslim).
    2) There is an ancient Christian sect in southern India, that traces it's origin to Saint Thomas, called the Mar Toma Church. Those that dealt with them would have passed on the knowledge of Jesus to others passing by, (sorry, don't know Jesus's name in any s. Indian language).
    and
    3) modern people just can't believe that a simple Jewish carpenter could expound on such deep philosophies, ideals, morals & do miracles without the aid of some esoteric training or outside force. And since most of His early life is not really spoken of much in the Gospels, we now have the so-called "Lost Years" for people to add conjecture to. People, He was the manifestation of the part of the Godhead called the Son of God. Now if he really was that, do you think that He really needed the help of some gurus???? Me thinks, that its the gurus that should be the ones that needed Jesus's help, not the other way around!!!!
     
  14. tony1 Jesus is Lord Registered Senior Member

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    2,279
    *Originally posted by Xev
    I don't think that is evidence.
    *

    Granted, it isn't much evidence.
    However, there is even less for his going to India.

    The point of my quote wasn't so much the "own" thing, as it was the fact that the people listening to him, who knew him, seemed unaware of his supposed travels.

    *I think it's much simpler to say that the passage you highlighted is referring to Jesus' teaching by the sea side, where His listeners listen well, and then returning to his own country where his listeners were "offended in him". Thus the remark "A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house."

    Which is quite wise, but never mind this.
    *

    Listening at the seaside works better?

    In any case, since Christianity spread to India, it wouldn't be surprising to find references to Jesus in India.
    As far as is known, Jesus didn't visit the US, since there was no US 2000 years ago, yet is quite common to find his name mentioned all over the US.

    It is highly unlikely that India has been Hindu for 5000 years as the Hindus might claim, given their persistent application of the oft-used principle of "divine deception" i.e. lying.
     
  15. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    10,943
    Tony1:
    Well come now Tony, it sounds New-Agey and isn't it just so bloody "tolerent" that Jesus learned from the Ascended Grand High Poo-Bah Yoga Masters of the Orient or whatever.

    Isn't that enough for you? Who needs evidence, it's the New Age!

    Okay, sarcasm overload.

    Oh, okay I see now. I had misread your argument.
    In this case, I agree completely with you.
     
  16. evolove Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    64
    No evidence, are you kidding?
    There is the best eviedence of anything else that I have come across, these scroll that the Buddhists have shouldn't be discounted, they are very into detailed stories of any saints, and history in general, and because culture that the scrolls come from, it's very unlikely that they're ficitious, very, very unlikely,

    And I'm a hell of a long way from New Age, God damn that an insult,

    I agree completely with Jesus being an Incarnation of the Christ part of the Godhead, but that doesn't discount that he had any sort of spiritual training, he had to go through tests just like everyone else did, plus isn't that the whole point that God made his son human to go through the same ordeals that we have to, even if he did have a slight advantage, and it still doesn't discount his going to to India anyway, just because the desiples don't mention it doesn't mean much, because they don't claim anything for this period, but they do say that there is much about Christ that they hadn't writen, "all the books in all the world couldn't contain" and they would have little use of recording any time spent in India (if any) in fact it would be detrimental to peaching to the people of that area for the simple fact of cultural differences,

    It's not just that there are references to Christ, that would mean nothing, there are references to Christ from China, they say that he actual went there, I realy have to read the book again,

    But I came across this the other day:
    "Both Jesus and Siddartha deserted their families to seek their truths. Both spent time in the wilderness. Both had teachers who they followed for a while and who eventually came to follow them. Both were tempted by evil supernatural beings. Even some sayings of each bear similarities. These are interesting of themselves. Perhaps the stories are similar because one story influenced the other? More likely they are similar because they grow out of similar needs and questions. Perhaps as Joseph Campbell would point out they reflect the common mythic threads that run through the human unconscious.

    Could the teaching of the Buddha have touched the life of Jesus? Actually yes, they could have, which is not the same as saying that they did. Jesus lived about five hundred years after Guatama and in an area thousands of miles removed. Jesus lived in a very different culture from Gautama and was of a different social standing. Yet he shared, it would seem, a thirst for truth with Gautama. Moreover, despite our image of Jesus as a poor man, that was not necessarily the case. In his time and place the term "carpenter" could refer to any skilled artisan including some fairly well compensated ones. Further we are given to understand from the Gospels that Mary was related to the temple priesthood Jesus could thus have grown up in an intellectually enriched atmosphere, one in which the deep questions were seriously explored. Far from being a simple peasant Jesus may well have been a well-educated theologically bent young man. What however does this have to do with Buddhism?

    Well, the ancient world was not quite as benighted or as fragmented as we sometimes think. Ideas have a way of spreading out. Remember that Jesus' Israel was part, albeit reluctantly, of the great Roman Empire. The Empire maintained trading and cultural relations with the East and in particular India. India had been the goal of Alexander the Great's last aborted campaign. Cleopatra may have considered fleeing to India after Actiun. In short, India was far from an unknown place in Jesus' world. Some two and a half centuries before Jesus, a remarkable Emperor reigned in India. His name was Ashoka and he converted to Buddhism. Ashoka sent out missionaries to carry the Buddha's message far and wide. We know some of those missionaries made it as far west as Syria.

    There is also a tradition that holds that Jesus traveled to the East in the years not discussed in the Bible. There are local traditions of Jesus' presence in Afghanistan, Iran, and even Pakistan and India. However there is no way to know when these traditions arose. "
     
  17. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    13,968
    Re: Re: Jesus' Lost Years


    Is there any evidence to support Jesus' life, as written in the Bible?

    Love

    Jan Ardena.
     
  18. Ekimklaw Believer in God Registered Senior Member

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    332
    Re: Re: Re: Jesus' Lost Years

    ==============================================
    Jan Ardena wrote:
    Is there any evidence to support Jesus' life, as written in the Bible?
    ==============================================


    A common mistake that some people make is that they view the Bible as if it were a novel. It is a collection of books. This is one reason it has enjoyed such a lasting influence.

    The Bible supports itself.

    Some of Paul's writings were only 20-30 years after Jesus' death and resurrection. They are in fact the oldest written documentation that Jesus lived. Because they were so clear and precise about Jesus and his teachings, Paul's letters as well as letters by other followers of Christ like John, Peter and Jude, were revered by early Christians, those who had seen Jesus with their own eyes, and those who had not. Eventually, these documents were collected together and eventually canonized as scripture by the church. Collectively they are the part of the Bible known as "The Epistles" or "The Letters".

    Taken independently, they are the earliest documentary evidence of the life and teachings of Christ.

    In addition to the Letters, there are various mentions in old historical documents and accounts. (http://www.carm.org/bible/extrabiblical_accounts.htm)

    To figure out the reason that people far removed did not mention or record the acts of Jesus, one must imagine an underwater nuclear explosion. On the surface at the time of the event, there is barely a ripple. Soon though, evidence of the event is seen as millions of gallons of water are thrust skyward. Likewise, in Judea when this strange rabbi (just another of many who claimed to be Messiah) came forth and did miracles (using Satanic power they said), taught as one who had authority, and forgave sins, he set of a "nuclear explosion" too. Because He rose up from the dead three days after being tortured and killed. This had the emotional effect of a nuclear bomb going off in history. It split time in half (B.C. and A.D.). This event manifested itself in the lives of those touched directly by the miracles.

    How else can one explain the martyrdom of the 12 desciples, who gladly gave their lives for Christ? Would a person die for something they knew was a lie? This also accounts for the amazing spread of Christianity throughout the world. By the time the world at large heard of Jesus, it was through the testimonies of people who had been effected by the explosion at ground zero in Jerusalem. Specifically... when a man who claimed to be God, rose up from the dead.

    -Mike
     
  19. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    19,083
    they were killed
    don't think the word "gladly" suits here

    and if today smone rises from the dead it isn't considered a miracle.

    Yeshua just might have fainted on the cross and later came back to himself

    or fell unsconscious from pain

    or short

    there are many possibilities

    (it is know that there have been cases , when those after the hanging by the cross have lived
    so I've heard)
     
  20. evolove Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    64
    You can be sure that they did gladly give up their lifes, it was considered a privelage, much the way suicide bombers are today, but very different, I don't want to offend anybody,

    With the resurection you forget that Jesus predicted he would do this, which he had no way of doing, unless he faked it, which would be pretty hard with people sticking spears into you, but not only that, it was predicted centuries before aswell, along with his Birth in Bethlahem, and some other things I think,
    And a part form the Gosples there is other evidence of his existance, and also his claims I think, in short a bit of detail

    But can anybody refute these scrolls that are in custody of the Buddhist? Because I wouldn't be suprised if the other author(s) made them up, especialy today, but I'd be very suprised if the Monks made them up,
     
  21. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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  22. evolove Registered Senior Member

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    64
    Jesus had only meet the disicples when he started to preach his message latter on in life, they might have dug up this information from others, Mary or his family, anybody that knew him, which brings us back to the piont, why wouldn't have the disicples written about India, if indeed Jesus did go there, or did they not know about it, you'd expect that it would have some up at some piont, one reason is that they might not have mentioned it because it could have created tension, or a hard rift to cross for the converts of this region, I realy have no idea's, if I knew a bit more about the Buddhist Scrolls themselves it would make it a lot easier,
    But one thing that might make this hard for people to believe is that if Jeus learnt from others, then it takes away from his own divinity, at least a bit, I see no reason why he would have to go to others to learn the things that he did, there are many traditions in the East that also claim their founders came to realise their teachings on their own, then agian some great masters didn't,
    It's just because of those damn scrolls, if they are factual accounts it changes the whole face of Christianity, and it goes a long way to explaining the paralells in the Christian and Buddhist/Hindu teachings,
     
  23. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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