# Thread: The Relativity of Simultaneity

1. Originally Posted by Emil
@....
The difference is how we understand the properties of light.
If the speed of light relative to an object is constant, regardless of the speed of the object, then Pete is right.
If the speed of light relative to an object depends on the speed of the object then Motor Daddy is right.

I agree with Motor Daddy.
For me it's a big difference between the meaning of the sentences:
"The speed of light is constant regardless of the speed of the source." and
"The speed of light relative to an object is constant, regardless of the speed of the object."
This I have demonstrated here.
Except that both you and MD are wrong. Experiment says so:

1.Alvaeger F.J.M. Farley, J. Kjellman and I Wallin, Physics Letters 12, 260 (1964). Arkiv foer Fysik, Vol 31, pg 145 (1965).

Measured the speed of gamma rays from the decay of fast π0 (~0.99975 c) to be c with a resolution of 400 parts per million. Optical extinction is not a problem for such high-energy gamma rays. The speed of the π0 is not measured, but is assumed to be similar to that measured for π+ and π−.

2. Babcock and Bergmann, Journal Opt. Soc. Amer. Vol. 54, pg 147 (1964).

This repeat of Kantor's experiment in vacuum shows no significant variation in the speed of light affected by moving glass plates. Optical Extinction is not a problem. k < 0.02.

3.Filipas and Fox, Phys. Rev. 135 no. 4B (1964), pg B1071.

Measured the speed of gamma rays from the decay of fast π0 (~0.2 c) in an experiment specifically designed to avoid extinction effects. Their results are in complete disagreement with the assumption c+v, and are consistent with SR. k < 0.5 with a confidence level of 99.9%.

4. Beckmann and Mandics, “Test of the Constancy of the Velocity of Electromagnetic Radiation in High Vacuum”, Radio Science, 69D, no. 4, pg 623 (1965).

A direct experiment with coherent light reflected from a moving mirror was performed in vacuum better than 10−6 torr. Its result is consistent with the constant velocity of light. This experiment is notable because Beckmann was a perennial critic of SR. Optical Extinction is not a problem.

5. Operation of FLASH, a free-electron laser, http://vuv-fel.desy.de/.

A free-electron laser generates highly collimated X-rays parallel to the relativistic electron beam that is their source. If the region that generates the X-rays is L meters long, and the speed of light emitted from the moving electrons is c+kv (here v is essentially c), then at the downstream end of that region the minimum pulse width is k(L/c)/(1+k), because light emitted at the beginning arrives before light emitted at the downstream end. For FLASH, L=30 meters, v=0.9999997 c (700 MeV), and the observed X-ray pulse width is as short as 25 fs. This puts an upper limit on k of 2.5×10−7. Optical extinction is not present, as the entire process occurs in very high vacuum

2. Originally Posted by Tach
Except that both you and MD are wrong. Experiment says so:

1.Alvaeger F.J.M. Farley, J. Kjellman and I Wallin, Physics Letters 12, 260 (1964). Arkiv foer Fysik, Vol 31, pg 145 (1965).

Measured the speed of gamma rays from the decay of fast π0 (~0.99975 c) to be c with a resolution of 400 parts per million. Optical extinction is not a problem for such high-energy gamma rays. The speed of the π0 is not measured, but is assumed to be similar to that measured for π+ and π−.

2. Babcock and Bergmann, Journal Opt. Soc. Amer. Vol. 54, pg 147 (1964).

This repeat of Kantor's experiment in vacuum shows no significant variation in the speed of light affected by moving glass plates. Optical Extinction is not a problem. k < 0.02.

3.Filipas and Fox, Phys. Rev. 135 no. 4B (1964), pg B1071.

Measured the speed of gamma rays from the decay of fast π0 (~0.2 c) in an experiment specifically designed to avoid extinction effects. Their results are in complete disagreement with the assumption c+v, and are consistent with SR. k < 0.5 with a confidence level of 99.9%.

4. Beckmann and Mandics, “Test of the Constancy of the Velocity of Electromagnetic Radiation in High Vacuum”, Radio Science, 69D, no. 4, pg 623 (1965).

A direct experiment with coherent light reflected from a moving mirror was performed in vacuum better than 10−6 torr. Its result is consistent with the constant velocity of light. This experiment is notable because Beckmann was a perennial critic of SR. Optical Extinction is not a problem.

5. Operation of FLASH, a free-electron laser, http://vuv-fel.desy.de/.

A free-electron laser generates highly collimated X-rays parallel to the relativistic electron beam that is their source. If the region that generates the X-rays is L meters long, and the speed of light emitted from the moving electrons is c+kv (here v is essentially c), then at the downstream end of that region the minimum pulse width is k(L/c)/(1+k), because light emitted at the beginning arrives before light emitted at the downstream end. For FLASH, L=30 meters, v=0.9999997 c (700 MeV), and the observed X-ray pulse width is as short as 25 fs. This puts an upper limit on k of 2.5×10−7. Optical extinction is not present, as the entire process occurs in very high vacuum
Are you saying that these experiments resolve the question at hand? I don't see the reference to how given light rays, no matter what their source, are being measured from two different frames of reference and found to be traveling at c in both frames at the same time.

3. Originally Posted by quantum_wave
Are you saying that these experiments resolve the question at hand?
Yes.

4. Originally Posted by Tach
Except that both you and MD are wrong. Experiment says so:

1.Alvaeger F.J.M. Farley, J. Kjellman and I Wallin, Physics Letters 12, 260 (1964). Arkiv foer Fysik, Vol 31, pg 145 (1965).

Measured the speed of gamma rays from the decay of fast π0 (~0.99975 c) to be c with a resolution of 400 parts per million. Optical extinction is not a problem for such high-energy gamma rays. The speed of the π0 is not measured, but is assumed to be similar to that measured for π+ and π−.

2. Babcock and Bergmann, Journal Opt. Soc. Amer. Vol. 54, pg 147 (1964).

This repeat of Kantor's experiment in vacuum shows no significant variation in the speed of light affected by moving glass plates. Optical Extinction is not a problem. k < 0.02.

3.Filipas and Fox, Phys. Rev. 135 no. 4B (1964), pg B1071.

Measured the speed of gamma rays from the decay of fast π0 (~0.2 c) in an experiment specifically designed to avoid extinction effects. Their results are in complete disagreement with the assumption c+v, and are consistent with SR. k < 0.5 with a confidence level of 99.9%.

4. Beckmann and Mandics, “Test of the Constancy of the Velocity of Electromagnetic Radiation in High Vacuum”, Radio Science, 69D, no. 4, pg 623 (1965).

A direct experiment with coherent light reflected from a moving mirror was performed in vacuum better than 10−6 torr. Its result is consistent with the constant velocity of light. This experiment is notable because Beckmann was a perennial critic of SR. Optical Extinction is not a problem.

5. Operation of FLASH, a free-electron laser, http://vuv-fel.desy.de/.

A free-electron laser generates highly collimated X-rays parallel to the relativistic electron beam that is their source. If the region that generates the X-rays is L meters long, and the speed of light emitted from the moving electrons is c+kv (here v is essentially c), then at the downstream end of that region the minimum pulse width is k(L/c)/(1+k), because light emitted at the beginning arrives before light emitted at the downstream end. For FLASH, L=30 meters, v=0.9999997 c (700 MeV), and the observed X-ray pulse width is as short as 25 fs. This puts an upper limit on k of 2.5×10−7. Optical extinction is not present, as the entire process occurs in very high vacuum
O.K. How about these?

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Progress in space-time physics / ed.: James Paul Wesley. - Blumberg: B. Wesley 1987. 280 p.
Contributions by: T. G. Barnes, S. Marinov, F. J. Müller, W. Schmidt, J. P. Wesley, C. A. Zapffe u.a.
* 1987 ff Apeiron
Apeiron: journal of inquiry into infinite nature (later: studies in infinite nature) / [Ed., 1987:] Henrik Broberg, Toivo Jaakkola,
C. Roy Keys, David Roscoe. - Montreal, Quebec: C. Roy Keys Inc. 1987 ff.
1987-92 with current numbering all fascicles, afterwards yearly volumes. - The articles of all volumes are available on the internet. -
Contributions by the authors: P. F. Browne, R. L. Carroll, G. Galeczki, P. Graneau, P. Marquard, A. Martin, P. Marmet, C. I. Mocanu, C.
Monstein, H. A. Munera, T. E. Phipps, C. Renshaw, J.-P. Vigier, J. P. Wesley, H. E. Wilhelm, R. G. Zaripov. - Since 1990: “Apeiron is
indexed in PHYSICS ABSTRACTS.”
Introductory reading2006 G. O. Muelle 49 r: 95 years criticism SRT
1987 Beckmann, Petr
Einstein plus two / by Petr Beckmann. - Boulder, Colo.: Golem Pr. 1987. 212 p.
1988 ff. Physics essays
Physics essays: an international journal dedicated to fundamental questions in physics. - Ottawa: Dollco 1988 ff..
Contributions by the authors: J. D. Edmunds jr., G. Galeczki, H. C. Hayden, A. Heyrovsky, D. J. Larson, W. X. Li, S. Marinov, J. D.
Mitsopoulos, M. Molski, J. N. Perceval, T. E. Phipps jr., B. W. Schumacher, E. W. Silvertooth, H. E. Wilhelm.
1988 McCausland, Ian
The relativity question / Department of Electrical Engineering, Univ. of Toronto. - Toronto: Univ. of Toronto 1988. 75 p.
1989 Cohen, Michael
Simultaneity and Einstein’s “Gedankenexperiment” / Michael Cohen.
In: Philosophy. Journal of the Royal Inst. of Philosophy. 64. 1989, pp. 391-396.
1989 Rodrigues, Waldyr Alves, jr.
A comment on the twin paradox and the Hafele-Keating experiment / W. A. Rodrigues Jr., E. C. de Oliveira.
In: Physics letters. A. 140. 1989, No. 9, pp. 479-484.
* 1990 ff. Galilean electrodynamics
Galilean electrodynamics: experience, reason and simplicity above authority / [Hrsg.: Petr Beckmann (u.a.)]. - Boulder, Colo.:
Gal. Electrodyn. 1990 ff.
Web-site with Cumulative index: www.eternalchaos.com/galicont.htm - Contribtions by the authors: P. Beckmann, J. P. Claybourne, H. C.
Hayden, P. F. Parshin, Th. E. Phipps jun., L. H. Pobedonostsev (u.a.).
1990 Proceedings of the Conference on “Foundations of mathematics and physics”
Proceedings of the Conference on “Foundations of mathematics and physics”, 1989: Perugia, Italy, 1989, 27.-29. Sept. / ed.:
U. Bartocci, J. P. Wesley. - Blumberg, (Germany): B. Wesley 1990. 383 p.
11 papers with criticism on relativity.
1990 Hayden, Howard C.
If Sagnac and Michelson-Gale, why not Michelson-Morley? / Howard C. Hayden, Cynthia K. Whitney.
In: Galilean electrodynamics. 1. 1990, No. 6 (Nov.-Dec.), pp. 71-75.
1990 Moon, Parry
The Michelson-Gale experiment and its effects on the postulates on the velocity of light / Parry Moon, Domina Eberle Spencer,
Euclid Eberle Moon. - In: Physics essays. 3. 1990, No. 4, pp. 421-428.
1990 Müller, Francisco J.
Unipolar induction experiments and relativistic electrodynamics / Francisco J. Müller.
In: Galilean electrodynamics. 1. 1990, No. 3, pp. 27-31.
1990 Podlaha, M. F.
Notes about relativity and about liberty in science / M. F. Podlaha.
In: Physical interpretations of relativity theory. 2. 1990, London, 3.-8.9.90. Proceedings. British Society for Philosophy of
Science. Sunderland, UK, 1990, Vol. 2, pp. 222-230.
1992 What physics for the next century?
What physics for the next century?: prospects for renewal, open problems, “heretical” truths; proceedings of the International
Conference, Ischia, Italy, 29.5.-1.6.1991 / Ed.: G. Arcidiacono, U. Bartocci, M. Mamone Capria.
Bologna: Andromeda 1992. 410 p. - (Inediti.)
Italian title: Quale fisica per il 2000?
1992 Hatch, Ronald R.
Escape from Einstein / Ronald R. Hatch. - Wilminton, CA: Kneat Kompany 1992. 232 p.
1992 Janich, Peter
Euclid’s heritage: is space three-dimensional? / Peter Janich. - Dordrecht: Kluwer 1992. 227 p.
(University of Western Ontario series in philo-sophy of science. 52.)
Introductory reading G. O. Mueller: 95 years criticism SRT 50 2006
1992 Wilhelm, Horst E.
Explanation of anomalous unipolar induction in corotating conductor-magnet arrangements by Galilean electrodynamics / H.
E. Wilhelm. - In: Apeiron. Montreal. No. 13. 1992 , June, pp. 17-23.
1993 Fundamental questions in quantum physics and relativity
Fundamental questions in quantum physics and relativity: collected papers in honor of Louis de Broglie / ed.: Franco Selleri.
- Palm Harbor, FL.: Hadronic Pr. 1993. 184 p. - (Hadronic Press collection of original articles.)
4 contributions with criticsm on relativity.
* 1993 Collins, Harry M. / Pinch, Trevor
The Golem: what everyone should know about science / Harry Collins, Trevor Pinch.
Cambridge: Univ. Pr. 1993. 164 p. - Second edition, with important appendix:
The Golem: what you should know about science / Harry Collins, Trevor Pinch. 2.ed.
Cambridge: Univ. Pr. 1998. 192 p.
1993 Graneau, Peter
Newton versus Einstein: how matter interacts with matter / Peter Graneau and Neal Graneau.
New York: Carlton Pr. 1993. 219 p. - (Hearthstone book (A).)
1993 Sachs, Mendel
Relativity in our time: from physics to human relations / Mendel Sachs. - London (usw.): Taylor & Francis 1993. 162 p.
1993 Stephenson, Lawrence
A review of Einstein’s relativity / Lawrence Ste-phenson; forew.: C. W. Kilmister. - Bexhill-on-Sea, East Sussex: Bucke
Acad. Publ. 1993. 80 p.
1993 Tolchelnikova-Murri, Svetlana A.
The Doppler observations of Venus contradict the SRT / Svetlana A. Tochelnikova-Murri; transl. from Russian
by Petr Beckmann. - In: Galilean electrodynamics. 4. 1993, No. 1 (Jan.-Feb.), pp. 3-6.
On the motion of the solar system with respect to the ether / Svetlana A. Tolchelnikova-Murri; transl. from
Russian by Petr Beckmann. - In: Galilean electrodynamics. 4. 1993, No. 6, pp. 109-112.
1993 Xu, Shaozhi
Systematical scrutiny into special relativity / Xu Shaozhi and Xu Xiangqun.
In: Chinese journal of systems engineering and electronics. 4. 1993, No. 2, pp. 75-85.
* 1994 Frontiers of fundamental physics
Frontiers of fundamental physics: proceedings of an International Conference on Frontiers of Fundamental Physics, Olympia,
Greece, 27. - 30. Sept. 1993 / ed. by Michele Barone, Franco Selleri.
New York (usw.): Plenum Pr. 1994. 601 p.
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1994 Galeczki, Georg
The incompatibility between Lorentz transformations and the inertial frame of reference / G. Galeczki.
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1995 Advances in fundamental physics
Advances in fundamental physics / ed. by Michele Barone and Franco Selleri.
Palm Harbor, Florida: Hadronic Pr. 1995. ca. 480 p.
1995 Hatch, Ronald R.
Relativity and GPS [Part 1-2] / Ronald R. Hatch.
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Introductory reading2006 G. O. Muelle 51 r: 95 years criticism SRT
1996 New frontiers in relativities
New frontiers in relativities: Proceedings of the International Workshop on New Frontiers in Theoretical Physics,
Monteroduni, Molise, Italy, August 9-12, 1995 / Ed.: Tepper G. Gill. - Palm Harbor, FL, USA: Hadronic Pr. 1996. 450 p. -
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1997 Jefimenko, Oleg D.
Electromagnetic retardation and theory of relativity: new chapters in the classical theory of fields / Oleg D. Jefimenko.
Star City, West Virginia, USA: Electret Scientific 1997. 306 p.
1997 Marmet, Paul
Einstein’s theory of relativity versus classical mechanics / Paul Marmet.
Gloucester, Ontario: Newton Physics Books 1997. 200 p.
1997 Whitney, Cynthia Kolb
The twins, the mesons, and the paradox / Cynthia Kolb Whitney.
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* 1998 Open questions in relativistic physics
Open questions in relativistic physics: [Proceedings of an International Conference on Relativistic Physics and Some of its
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Review by Assis: Apeiron. 6. 1999, No. 1/2, p. 122. - 38 contributions by some 40 authors.
1998 Múnera, Héctor A.
Michelson-Morley experiments revisited: syste-matic errors, consistency among different experiments, and compatibility
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2000 Guala Valverde, Jorge A.
More on time-keeping and GPS Satellites / Jo. Guala-Valverde, J. Tramaglia.
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2000 Pavlovic, Milan R.
Einstein’s dilatation of time and contraction of space - reality or illusion? / Milan R. Pavlovic. 4., rev. and suppl. ed.
Belgrade: B-print 2000. 233 p.
2002 Bjerknes, Christopher Jon
Albert Einstein - the incorrigible plagiarist / Christopher Jon Bjerknes. - Downers Grove, Ill.: XTX 2002. 408 p.
Contents: 1. The priority myth. - 2. Space-time, or is it “time-space”? - 3. “Theory of relativity” or “pseudorelativism”?- 4. Hero worship. -
5. E=mc² - 6. Einstein’s modus operandi. - 7. History. - 8. Mileva Einstein-Marity. - 9. Politics and anecdotes.
2002 Magueijo, João
Faster than the speed of light: the story of a scientific speculation / João Magueijo.
Cambridge, Mass.: Perseus Publ. 2002. 279 p.
2002 Wesley, James Paul
Selected topics in scientific physics / James Paul Wesley. - Blumberg, BR: Wesley 2002. 402 p.
2003 Marmet, Paul
GPS and the illusion of constant light speed / Paul Marmet. - In: Galilean electrodynamics. 14. 2003, No. 2, pp. 23-30.
2003 Van Flandern, Tom
What the Global Positioning System tells us about the twin’s paradox / Tom Van Flandern.
In: Apeiron. Montreal. [Internet-Datei.] 10. 2003, No. 1, Jan., pp. 69-86.
2004 Galeczki, Georg
SRT’s Achilles’ heel: units of measurements / George Galeczki. - In: Galilean electrodynamics. 15. 2004, No. 1, pp. 16-19

5. How about them? Christopher Bjerknes? Galilean Electrodynamics? Apeiron? Van Flandern? Dingle? The kook's "who's who" gallery.

Did you understand that one experiment is sufficient to falsify your kook ideas?

6. Originally Posted by Tach
Yes.
Cute.

I don't see the reference to how given light rays, no matter what their source, are being measured from two different frames of reference and found to be traveling at c, or at c in one frame and not at c in the other. You have not resolved the issue as I see it. Please state the issue that was resolved in your examples, and if you can do that, then explain for us laymen how it is resolved.

7. Originally Posted by quantum_wave
Cute.

I don't see the reference to how given light rays, no matter what their source, are being measured from two different frames of reference and found to be traveling at c, or at c in one frame and not at c in the other.
Tough

8. Ouch.

9. Originally Posted by Tach
You are assuming that transporting the clocks at identical speeds wrt M will maintain synchronization (slow clock transport). In "MD's world", this is not the case since the "absolute speeds" of the two clocks wrt some "absolute" frame are not the same. you need to study MD's world for a while. Then, you will understand why Pete gave up.
Actually, I am curious as to how both gentlemen will respond to this. It is true that the clocks could be transported slowly, although I'm not sure this matters, as long as the movement is symmetrical. My rationale was simply that MD considers M to be at absolute rest, while Pete says that M has the right to consider himself to be at rest.

Maybe one or both won't agree to this setup. I'd rather not at this point say what I expect their answers to be.

But from reading this thread, I'm pretty sure they would argue their points without resorting to personal attacks, and without spamming this forum with quotations. That is really not helpful guys.

DonQuixote

10. Hi DonQuixote, thank you for the encouragement.

I think it's not so much that the train observer has the right to consider himself at rest, but that his measurements are consistent with him being at rest, and that he is frustrated by the rules of the universe that prevent him from measuring his absolute velocity, and also that the embankment observer similarly can not prove that the embankment is at rest.

Yes, in this exercise I'm starting with the assumptions of time dilation and length contraction, without explanation. They're fundamental features of this model. I find it an interesting contrast to the historical approach, where Einstein started from the assumption of the frame independence of the speed of light, and derived time dilation and length contraction.

The synchronizing of clocks by slow separation was examined in post #393. The result was that the train observer's clocks were not actually synchronized according to embankment clocks. In fact, it gave him the same result as Einstein's synchronization method would have.

I have exams coming up in a few weeks, so I can't afford to dedicate any more time to this at the moment. I might arrange a more formal discussion with MD in the debates forums afterward.

11. Originally Posted by Pete
Hi DonQuixote, thank you for the encouragement.

I think it's not so much that the train observer has the right to consider himself at rest, but that his measurements are consistent with him being at rest, and that he is frustrated by the rules of the universe that prevent him from measuring his absolute velocity, and also that the embankment observer similarly can not prove that the embankment is at rest.

Yes, in this exercise I'm starting with the assumptions of time dilation and length contraction, without explanation. They're fundamental features of this model. I find it an interesting contrast to the historical approach, where Einstein started from the assumption of the frame independence of the speed of light, and derived time dilation and length contraction.

The synchronizing of clocks by slow separation was examined in post #393. The result was that the train observer's clocks were not actually synchronized according to embankment clocks. In fact, it gave him the same result as Einstein's synchronization method would have.

I have exams coming up in a few weeks, so I can't afford to dedicate any more time to this at the moment. I might arrange a more formal discussion with MD in the debates forums afterward.
Given Einstein's postulates, MD cannot prove Einstein is wrong and no one can prove Einstein's postulates, not even Tach. Postulates are assumed to be self-evident or necessary truths from which other theory dependant truths are derived; truths like time dilation and length contraction as you point out. There is supporting evidence as Tack points out (I think) but no way to prove the postulates themselves. That is why this debate has been going on for so long.

Given MD's postulates, you are taking on the mission to prove he is wrong and he is claiming to be able to prove himself right. Sorry if other members have derailed you and there is the exams. Good luck.

Somebody always comes along to try to prove Einstein wrong which cannot be done, and there always is a someone at hand who is convinced Einstein is right and so it doesn't matter to them that he cannot be proven right.

I guess the debate is worth waiting for Pete, but do you disagree with my summation?

12. 1. Light travels at a constant speed in space during a duration of time.
2. Objects can travel in space during the same duration of time.

Does everyone agree?

13. Originally Posted by quantum_wave
Given Einstein's postulates, MD cannot prove Einstein is wrong and no one can prove Einstein's postulates, not even Tach. Postulates are assumed to be self-evident or necessary truths from which other theory dependant truths are derived; truths like time dilation and length contraction as you point out. There is supporting evidence as Tack points out (I think) but no way to prove the postulates themselves. That is why this debate has been going on for so long.
Postulates cannot be proven. They can only be disproved. Experimentally. In 106 years no one has managed to disprove the SR postulates.

14. Originally Posted by Motor Daddy
1. Light travels at a constant speed in space during a duration of time.
2. Object's can travel in space during the same duration of time.

Does everyone agree?
I agree, and not to nit pic but I am sure you agree that the speed of light depends on the medium so you are correct if you say that light travels at a constant speed in an unchanging medium. Sorry, I guess it is a nit pic. I agree with you.

15. Originally Posted by Tach
Postulates cannot be proven. They can only be disproved. Experimentally. In 106 years no one has managed to disprove the SR postulates.
You represented your "evidence" as if it proved Emil and MD are wrong. I couldn't see how it did and you waved off the challenge. Now you make an obvious statement and I am getting the impression that you challenge one of the strengths of science, that of tentativeness. Do you yearn to say that the postulates are true because they cannot be falsified .

16. Originally Posted by quantum_wave
You represented your "evidence" as if it proved Emil and MD are wrong. I couldn't see how it did and you waved off the challenge. Now you make an obvious statement and I am getting the impression that you challenge one of the strengths of science, that of tentativeness. Do you yearn to say that the postulates are true because they cannot be falsified .
No, what I'm saying is that you don't have a clue what I'm saying.

17. Originally Posted by Motor Daddy
1. Light travels at a constant speed in space during a duration of time.
2. Objects can travel in space during the same duration of time.
What if: 1. light travels at infinite speed instead? And 2. Objects don't?
Does it make any difference? (Einstein states that, no, it doesn't change the outcome of synchronous measurements).

And: So What?

18. Originally Posted by Tach
No, what I'm saying is that you don't have a clue what I'm saying.
Your quite wrong, and I suspect that is a trait.

19. quantum_wave:

Originally Posted by quantum_wave
From chapter 9: “Events which are simultaneous with reference to the embankment are not simultaneous with respect to the train, and vice versa (relativity of simultaneity). Every reference-body (co-ordinate system) has its own particular time; unless we are told the reference-body to which the statement of time refers, there is no meaning in a statement of the time of an event.”

Suggested rewording:
Events which are simultaneous with reference to the embankment do not appear to be simultaneous with respect to the train, and vice versa (relativity of simultaneity).
Einstein's derivation (summarised above by me) has nothing to do with appearances. It concerned what actually happens. Thus, your re-wording would be to misunderstand and to misrepresent Einstein's reasoning.

Every reference-body (co-ordinate system) has its own time delay relative to events in every other frame of reference (co-ordinate system). Time delay is defined as the length of time it takes light to travel the distance equal to the relative motion that has taken place.
The relativity of simultaneity has nothing to do with delays due to light travel time from one place to another.

Unless we are told the reference-body to which the statement of time refers, no time delay can be calculated. If we know the reference-body (co-ordinate system) that marks the operative time, an event in that system can be assumed to have a time delay in every other reference-body (co-ordinate system). Estimates of that time delay can be made but there is no method yet to perform actual measurements to prove the exact time delay.
If you want to time how long light takes to go from one place to another, just get yourself a clock. That's a good method.

A reference "body" is not the same as a reference frame. It is important that you understand the difference.

Originally Posted by quantum_wave
Given Einstein's postulates, MD cannot prove Einstein is wrong and no one can prove Einstein's postulates, not even Tach.
Technically this is true, but 100 years of solid experimental evidence supports Einstein's postulates and completely refutes Motor Daddy's posulates. So, while Einstein has not been "proved" correct, Motor Daddy has certainly been proved wrong, over and over again. And there's not a single experiment that suggests Einstein was wrong.

Postulates are assumed to be self-evident or necessary truths from which other theory dependant truths are derived; truths like time dilation and length contraction as you point out. There is supporting evidence as Tack points out (I think) but no way to prove the postulates themselves. That is why this debate has been going on for so long.
There is no debate about this among scientists. The only debate is from amateurs on internet forums. And the reason for that is not lack of evidence. The reason is that the amateurs who believe Einstein was wrong don't understand Einstein's theory 99.7% of the time. About 78% of those never bother to take time to actually learn about it. (And 56% of all statistics are made up on the spot.)

Somebody always comes along to try to prove Einstein wrong which cannot be done, and there always is a someone at hand who is convinced Einstein is right and so it doesn't matter to them that he cannot be proven right.
Einstein can't be proven right in the same way that it can't be proven that the Sun will rise tomorrow.

Originally Posted by quantum_wave to Tach
You represented your "evidence" as if it proved Emil and MD are wrong. I couldn't see how it did and you waved off the challenge.
Tach's evidence is sound, but Tach is lousy at presenting this kind of thing. He didn't bother to give the source of his evidence list, and he didn't explain what values like "k" mean in the brief descriptions he listed. He expects people to somehow magically know what he means. He's a bad explainer. Frankly, I don't know why he bothers if he doesn't actually want to communicate anything.

20. Originally Posted by quantum_wave
Given Einstein's postulates, MD cannot prove Einstein is wrong and no one can prove Einstein's postulates, not even Tach. Postulates are assumed to be self-evident or necessary truths from which other theory dependant truths are derived; truths like time dilation and length contraction as you point out. There is supporting evidence as Tack points out (I think) but no way to prove the postulates themselves. That is why this debate has been going on for so long.

Given MD's postulates, you are taking on the mission to prove he is wrong and he is claiming to be able to prove himself right. Sorry if other members have derailed you and there is the exams. Good luck.

Somebody always comes along to try to prove Einstein wrong which cannot be done, and there always is a someone at hand who is convinced Einstein is right and so it doesn't matter to them that he cannot be proven right.

I guess the debate is worth waiting for Pete, but do you disagree with my summation?
MD's position is that Einstein's postulates aren't compatible with reality.
My 'mission', I suppose, is twofold: to help MD recognise that compatibility; and to help him recognise the role of actual experiments in testing models.

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