Homosexulaity and the Bible

[wynn]

Yet another example of you vastly overestimating yourself.
I learned long ago that the opinions of deceitful, duplicitous ill-educated people aren't worth taking any notice of.

You sure are paying Jan a lot of notice then!

[Dywyddyr]

You sure are paying Jan a lot of notice then!

Merely pointing out his numerous errors and unsubstantiated suppositions. I do the same for anyone.
I have an aversion to publicly-promulgated nonsense.
It doesn't mean his opinion of me has any effect on me.

[wynn]

Oh, of course. You are such a nice person and everything!

[Jan Ardena]

Signal,

Tell me something: How come you don't take this up with the Christians (or at least people who call themselves "Christians")?

I would, if they came with the same arrogance as Dywyddyr.
Ican't stand arrogance.

Personally, I am still terrified of Christians.
I have never previously seen that a theist from a different denomination would stand up against them.
I think it would have been quite encouraging to have seen that.

It would be very similar to discussing with atheists like Dyw...
It would ultimately amount to me not being as good a human being as them.
I find (hellfire) christians and explicit atheists very similar in character.

jan.

[wynn]

It would ultimately amount to me not being as good a human being as them.

But how do you cope with that?
Are you really sure that you are just as good a human being as them, or at least as good a human being as "needs be"?

Because for me, this is the breaking point: When a discussion or debate with a fire-and-brimstone Christian or an atheist (or some others) comes to the point of them more or less directly accusing me of "not being good enough" (or not being advanced or realized enough), I believe it - I have nothing to counter that accusation, as countering that accusation would to me (and to them as well) mean that I am proud, vain, think too much of myself, that I lack humility, that I am in maya.

So I constantly lose debates, but this is the least of the trouble. I also constantly lose in my inner struggles as well, so I end up feeling defeated, confused and unable to act, unable to decide what is right and what is wrong, unable to decide what I should or shouldn't do, feeling guilty over everything that I eventually do.

I just seems to me that no matter what I would do, it would be wrong. That doing things "my way" (even if this means I am trying to act in line with a particular scriptural instruction) would be idle defiance.

Have you ever had such concerns? How did you deal with them?

[Jan Ardena]

Signal,

But how do you cope with that?

Granted, it can be very difficult, with some bozo telling you you're an idiot.
I cope by focusing intently on what they are ACTUALLY saying, and disregard the bullshit. When they realise you are focusing on this, disregarding that, they try to swithch technique. After they have exhausted their tally, they turn on you, because they realise they are exposed, and have no place to go.
When their insults are taken with a pinch of salt, their next move is to ignore you, acting as though you are too stupid, or a spawn of Satan, and as such not good enough to engage with them.

The problem is theirs, not yours.
And you'll find it is mostly a western ideal.

When a discussion or debate with a fire-and-brimstone Christian or an atheist (or some others) comes to the point of them more or less directly accusing me of "not being good enough" (or not being advanced or realized enough), I believe it - I have nothing to counter that accusation, as countering that accusation would to me (and to them as well) mean that I am proud, vain, think too much of myself, that I lack humility, that I am in maya.

How would you counter it if a five year old made such accusations?
Because it is the same thing.

So I constantly lose debates, but this is the least of the trouble.
I also constantly lose in my inner struggles as well, so I end up feeling defeated, confused and unable to act, unable to decide what is right and what is wrong, unable to decide what I should or shouldn't do, feeling guilty over everything that I eventually do.

That's because they are bullies.
You have to make the decision at some point, that you are not going to be
intimidated by such people. They only fight for the moment.

Have you ever had such concerns? How did you deal with them?

Read above.

jan.

[Dywyddyr]

I cope by focusing intently on what they are ACTUALLY saying, and disregard the bullshit.

What you mean is that you focus on what you THINK is being said and fail utterly to respond to what is ACTUALLY said.

[wynn]

I cope by focusing intently on what they are ACTUALLY saying, and disregard the bullshit.

But in actual communication, there is always the factor of who is talking to whom. Say the wrong thing to the wrong person and you could be incurring a grave offense with dangerous consequences for yourself.

How would you counter it if a five year old made such accusations?
Because it is the same thing.

I have actually thought about this very situation - being told such things by a child. To some extent, I have also experienced it. I know my concern probably sounds silly.

But in my upbringing, I was raised to have a fearful respect esp. for Christians - regardless of their age, sex, social position. In effect, to me, a person's religious position is like an all-purpose card for blackmail. And heaven help me if I don't give in to it.

That's because they are bullies.

You have to make the decision at some point, that you are not going to be
intimidated by such people. They only fight for the moment.

But on the grounds of what may one make such a decision, without feeling guilty for it?

[davewhite04]

Misread question.

For what it's worth.

I think it does for some and not for others.

[Jan Ardena]

Signal,

But in actual communication, there is always the factor of who is talking to whom. Say the wrong thing to the wrong person and you could be incurring a grave offense with dangerous consequences for yourself.

What do you mean?

But in my upbringing, I was raised to have a fearful respect esp. for Christians - regardless of their age, sex, social position. In effect, to me, a person's religious position is like an all-purpose card for blackmail. And heaven help me if I don't give in to it.

Then I would say that the conflict lies not with debate, discussion, or argument, but with your up-bringing.
My advice would be to seek out facts, truths, and develop your understanding.

But on the grounds of what may one make such a decision, without feeling guilty for it?

The guilt you feel most likely comes from the process of your up-bringing.
My advice would be to come to terms with that, or it will plague you for the rest of your life.
If you are currently free to think for yourself without people intimidating you in real time, then now is the oppotunity to engage your mind in who, and what you are, without the baggage.

I guess this may not be the solution you seek, but I cannot think of anything else that could ease your torment.

jan.

[Jan Ardena]

Misread question.

For what it's worth.

I think it does for some and not for others.

My thoughts also.

jan.