Chaos Into Order or Order Into Chaos? BBC2 Prof Cox

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience Archive' started by common_sense_seeker, Mar 17, 2010.

  1. common_sense_seeker Bicho Voador & Bicho Sugador Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,623
    Prof Brian Cox stated that the former applied as the result of the big bang on a TV programme recently, whilst I proclaim the latter. It's not so clear cut one way or the other is it? Which is it? Professor Brian Cox: bringing the solar system to your living room
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2010
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. common_sense_seeker Bicho Voador & Bicho Sugador Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,623
    Alpha Numeric; why the silence? :shrug:
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. phlogistician Banned Banned

    Messages:
    10,342
    The Universe now is less ordered than it was before matter separated from energy after the big bang. The Universe adheres to laws governing entropy, for someone to claim it's now 'ordered' and previously it was more chaotic is plainly absurd.

    The entirety of everything used to be a singularity a uniform point of infinitely dense, degenerate matter.

    But then you have a scant grasp of maths, or any science subject, so I'm not surprised this goes over our head.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. common_sense_seeker Bicho Voador & Bicho Sugador Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,623
    lol! I agree with you at last! The only problem is that this view is anti-mainstream. Prof Brian Cox stated explicitly that the universe started out in a state of chaos (a cloud of gas) and condensed under gravity into a more ordered system that we observe today. AN, what do you say?
     
  8. phlogistician Banned Banned

    Messages:
    10,342
    No it is not anti mainstream.

    A cloud of gas is fairly homogeneous, when stars form, they fuse new, different elements, adding complexity. This is in agreement with entropy.

    Seemingly 'chaotic' motion of particles, ie, 'Brownian Motion', to ordered orbits of planetary systems is different however. That's probably the reason you are confused.
     
  9. AlphaNumeric Fully ionized Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,702
    Because I have other things to do with my time than waste it trying to teach you something you should have covered in your astronomy degree and which you obviously have no interest in actually understanding.

    This might surprise you but I have work to do offline. Unlike you I can't just make vacuous unjustified claims and proclaim I'm doing science, I have to come up with results and justify them. Yesterday, today and I imagine most of the weekend will be spent altering notation through more than 300 pages of work because I realised its better if I define a symplectic inner product for a moduli space I'm working with.

    If you understood thermodynamics you'd know that local increases in order are entirely expected and even global increases in order can be entirely expected also provided you make certain simply assumptions about the properties of the path a system moves through within its phase space. I suggest a look at things like the Poincare recurrence time. But no doubt it'll go completely over your head because you aren't interested in doing or understanding science, you just want to convince yourself you haven't wasted your time chasing hyraxes and crop circles. Too bad, you have.
     
  10. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,576
    Common sense seeker:

    I'm on the verge of insulting you and yet, that is not my intention.
    I'm going to go ahead and SAY it... And accept whatever consequences the Mods here feel I deserve.
    But so you know, it is not that I wish to hurt your feelings or attack you with ad homs. It's that I say it in the vain hope you will step back and really think...
    THINK FRIKKIN HARD...
    about what I said.

    You seem very simple minded to me.

    You fail to see what happens because you reduce what's rational and normal into simplistic absurdities.

    Chaos and order are one in the same. Look at the Weather we experience on Earth. You can observe this readily, unlike you observing the big bang.

    Entropy is very much a part of the weather patterns on Earth. Yet, that entropy is also a major factor in creating the weather patterns we observe.

    Do some meteorology for a while as you think about my "insult" above.
     
  11. common_sense_seeker Bicho Voador & Bicho Sugador Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,623
    Have a guess at what Prof Cox quickly said was the cause of the first star formation. He looked away from the camera whilst saying it incidentally.
     
  12. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,576
    Stop obfuscating. No guessing games.

    Support your claims with facts, a detailed description of stellar formation and observational evidence.

    Either put out something with merit or join a conspiracy forum.

    This is what Conspiracy Theorists always do- They tilt at windmills but avoid having to Support their claims by asking leading questions instead of ever answering any.
     
  13. common_sense_seeker Bicho Voador & Bicho Sugador Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,623
    "nova"
     
  14. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,576
    Maybe he messed up.
    That one man may have been discussing theory, but he can make mistakes.
    Theory does not state that Nova caused the FIRST star...
    Do you have a clip of this? youtube or something? Can we see it?

    Theory states that stellar formation is the culmination of gravitationally attracted matter coalescing into a star. We have many stellar nurseries under observation.
    The Very First star would form the same way, obviously.

    Now, after a great amount of time has passed, Nova and Supernova have contributed a great deal of matter into the coalescing clumps that later became stars and planets.
     
  15. AlphaNumeric Fully ionized Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,702
    Jesus, you see conspiracy bloody everywhere.

    I've told you before, rather than getting your information from pop science magazines and TV why don't you spend some time reading journals or research level books? It would mean you don't have to have someone else give you their paraphrasing of the research, you'd know the research directly.

    All of the researchers I know don't watch pop science TV shows because we spot too many half truths and fudges, done in order to explain things to laypersons, and find it isn't informative.
     
  16. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,576
    Ratings. Ain't it disgusting?
    History channel and Discovery channel and Learning channel have become CRAP.
     
  17. phlogistician Banned Banned

    Messages:
    10,342
    Eh?

    A Nova involves accretion of gas onto a white dwarf star. Therefore, it can't be the cause of the first stellar formations, as a star already exists.

    Simply, stars form due to gravitational attraction in a cloud of gas. It's been modelled, and verified. Look up some papers on 'Monte Carlo Simulations'.
     
  18. AlphaNumeric Fully ionized Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,702
    Worryingly CSS claims to have done a degree in astronomy. Which becomes a very questionable claim when he shows he doesn't even know basic orbital mechanics or doesn't know about the model of nebula collapse to form solar systems. :shrug:
     
  19. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,576
    Then I might guess he is being dishonest.
    I have no degree in Astronomy. I sure wish I had one...


    If CSS has a degree in Astronomy, he found it in a cracker jack box.
     
  20. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,690
    Who says that the universe was a disordered blob of gas prior to the Big Bang??? The most common postulate, in my observation, is that there was no universe before the Big Bang. That there was literally nothing, a space-time continuum with no contents.

    Since the Second Law says only that entropy tends to increase, but does not increase monotonically, local reversals of entropy are possible. "Locally" has to include temporally local as well as spatially local. In a spacetime continuum that is infinite both spatially and temporally, anything that is possible can happen, perhaps even more than once.

    So we had a local reversal of entropy and a singularity popped into existence consisting of quarks, bosons and leptons with an exact balance of charge/spin/whatever, so conservation of matter and energy were not violated.

    This may be remarkable, but it's not impossible. Since it is possible, then by the Sherlock Holmes method of reasoning, if all other explanations turn out to be impossible, then this truly was how our Hubble Volume came into existence. (I hate to use the word "universe" because it's too ambiguous for this discussion. The entire continuum of space and time is "the space-time continuum" regardless of whether vast portions of it are empty, and our little corner of it is our "Hubble Volume.")
     
  21. common_sense_seeker Bicho Voador & Bicho Sugador Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,623
    I have a problem with this theory;
    1. It doesn't happen to dust particles on Earth or in space
    2. It's a theory based on universal gravitational law, which is highly disputed
    3. The theory is based on calculus and the assumption that entire Earth is composed of baryonic matter
    4. A pictorial simulation of 'creation' is yet to be achieved.
    Here's the BBCiplayer of the TV programme (UK residents only I think) Wonders Of The Solar System
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2010
  22. common_sense_seeker Bicho Voador & Bicho Sugador Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,623
    "Verified" means nothing imo. I don't have time to look up the papers unfortunately.
     
  23. common_sense_seeker Bicho Voador & Bicho Sugador Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,623
    I totally agree. I think in terms of a ordered build-up of matter and structure before the BB. The possibilities are still open-ended.
    Nicely put Fraggle Rock.
     

Share This Page