Interception of galaxy axis - Planets turn around? Sun errupts?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience Archive' started by Smellsniffsniff, Mar 5, 2010.

  1. Smellsniffsniff Gravitomagnetism Heats the Sun Registered Senior Member

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    It's just a question, it doesn't hurt anyone. I suppose there might be an earthquake? Or something...
     
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  3. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    Is there a clearly stated question?

    The Earth passes alignment with the galactic plane once every year- if it is that to which you are referring.
     
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  5. AlphaNumeric Fully ionized Registered Senior Member

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    Nothing happens. The galaxy is thousands of light years thick and is not perfectly symmetric and so even saying where the galactic plane is is a matter of some interpretation. Wherever it is precisely its hundreds of light years away from us and so a long way off. Furthermore what would happen? There's nothing special about passing through the plane, its just the mean location for the mass of the galaxy if vierwed as a disk. No special forces lie there, infact there's less resultant for on the solar system. If passing through the plane did something to stars wouldn't we see stars ahead of us being ripped apart or stars in other spiral galaxies being destroyed at particular locations? And yet we don't.

    It's nothing more than completely unfounded fear mongering by people who are either utterly ignorant of science or out to make a quick buck.
     
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  7. Smellsniffsniff Gravitomagnetism Heats the Sun Registered Senior Member

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    I just asked, it's not an answer, it's just a question. Was just something I had heard about.
     
  8. matthew809 Registered Senior Member

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    Actually, I don't think we should immediately dismiss such a potentially huge event. Like AlphaNumeric stated, the exact position of the galactic plane is up for interpretation. And this uncertainty extends to the actual physical makeup of the galactic plane as well. I believe that it's possible that our solar system is being gravitationally attracted towards a 2-D galactic plane, and after we pass through it we will be subjected to a reverse gravitational pull.

    The effects of such an event are up for debate, but this passing would definitely result in catastrophe for our planet.

    Also, considering the fact that the exact position and makeup of the galactic plane is unknown, does anyone find it suspicious when someone claims to know that we've supposedly already passed the plane a long time ago?

    Also does anyone find the invention of dark matter to explain(or explain away) the weird gravitational behavior of the universe little bit too convenient?

    Has anyone noticed the increase in earthquakes and natural disasters lately, and does anyone doubt that this will be attributed to the invention of global warming? Does anyone find the idea of global warming too convenient, such like the invention of dark matter?

    Does anyone doubt that if such a disaster was to occur, that there's way too many people on this earth (most of them useless) to save?

    Is it inconceivable to imagine that a controlling power might try to hide such scientific knowledge from the populace for self-preservation? Do you think such a total blackout of information is impossible? Well have you noticed how money controls people, and the PTB controls money?

    Has anyone watched the news lately? Do you not see how the media is dubiously trying to turn us against our own government? Do you not see how civil unrest and "homegrown terrorism" would give the government reason to restrict our freedoms even more, and do you not see how this population control would be a necessary step as we approach global disaster? Does anyone not notice the fact that our major open source of information, the internet, is destined to be restricted and governed for national security reasons within the next year or so? This would also be a vital step in such a scenario.

    Has anyone here actually looked into the Denver International Airport or any one of the other thousands of underground bases and found it a bit curious. Has anyone gotten angry about the fact that these bases are being built with our tax dollars, secretly, while we slave our lives away everyday with no chance of ever gaining access to these bunkers in such a time of emergency?

    I could go on....
     
  9. Pinwheel Banned Banned

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    2,424
    Yes I believe you could.

    :m:
     
  10. Shadow1 Valued Senior Member

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    .

    is it true, about the polar shift in 2012???
     
  11. Shadow1 Valued Senior Member

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    still confused
     
  12. matthew809 Registered Senior Member

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    Good luck getting many of the people here to think open-mindedly about something so controversial and ignored by the mainstream scientific community. Even smart people are subject to the need to fit in. Most of the people here will defend conventional wisdom like a religion, unwilling to believe that these science spokespeople may not have their best interest in mind.

    The bigger the conspiracy, the less likely it is to be true right?

    To discover the truth, you have to get past the politics, and sometimes politics is disguised as science.
     
  13. Smellsniffsniff Gravitomagnetism Heats the Sun Registered Senior Member

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    Well I wouldn't know about it, but I do have a hard time to believe that crossing the galaxy axis is a one in a year phenomenon. I would rather like to believe that the crossing is divided in phases; that it juggle between 2 force fields.

    But I wouldn't have a clue: Not an astronomer, as it were.
     
  14. AlphaNumeric Fully ionized Registered Senior Member

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    6,702
    Speaking as someone who works at a university as a postgrad and whose father also works at a (different) university as a head of department I can tell you from experience that your paranoia and conspiracy theories are nonsense. People in science make names for themselves by demolishing each others work. The guy who kicks over Einstein will be remembered forever so all this "They'll surpress the truth" stuff is nonsense.

    No, because I happen to know people who work on dark matter models, both in terms of doing astronomical observations and in terms of constructing particle physics theories to be tested. Dark matter arose because we made a new observation which previous ideas couldn't explain so someone came up with a possible answer. That's how science works. You seem to be paranoid about something which is to be expected from science, new ideas. And all the data is available for people to read, almost every physics paper from the last 15 years is on www.arxiv.org . If it were all a scam the entire physics community would have to be in on it and faking all of the conferences, lecture series, exams, experimental data, theoretical models, everything.

    Despite what you might see in the media, science is actually pretty cut throat. If you are wrong someone will point it out. If your models don't work, someone will point it out. If you falsify data you'll be sacked and barred from academia. To 'fake' dark matter every single university in the world has to have 5~50 people in on it because the falsification of astronomical observations can't be done (too many people with their own telescopes).

    Its funny, you talk about being worried about 'information blackouts' yet from your comments you make it very clear that even when the information is freely and easily available you don't access it. If you knew any gravitational models or cosmology you'd know that your statement "passing would definitely result in catastrophe for our planet." is nonsense. The Earth has passed through the galactic plane many many times over the last 5 billion years, certainly its orbitted around the centre of the galaxy 20+ times (takes about 270 million years if I remember correctly) and if you were right there'd be clear mass extinctions at very regular intervals in the fossil record. There isn't. So not only is there absolutely no basis for your claim in the realms of physics there's a complete absence of evidence for previous 'catastrophes' at regular intervals.

    Why don't you go and exercise your civil liberties and right to information by reading a book. I'm sure your local government, in between poisoning the tap water and digging secret underground bunkers, provides a free library near you which will have physics textbooks in it.
     
  15. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    3,576
    It's easy to use unsupported ad hominem statements to make yourself look possibly correct or persecuted. Like a puffer fish swelling up to present the illusion of mass.

    But such spewing is no more enlightening than claiming that the Institution is Hiding the fact that a Cheez-whiz gobbling space dragon hides on the Far Side of the Moon.
    By leaving your claims open to possibility, you never need to back them up.

    The irony is, science as a technique could not progress unless scientists were willing to poke and pry and speculate and dare to demonstrate.
    Science would yield little in the way of progress if it was close minded as you say.
    How could discoveries take place when people defend ideas like a religion as you claim?

    What actually occurs in the scientific world seems to be in stark contrast to your unsupported claims.

    This is because your ad hom attacks serve no purpose other than to give your own claims the illusion of credence. Which means you can disregard accuracy in making them.
     
  16. matthew809 Registered Senior Member

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    To think that conspiracies do not exist is naive and makes it all too easy for these people to get away with it.

    Actually, from what I've read lately, there seems to be a huge group of free-thinking academics who don't believe in dark matter.

    Here's an example of mainstream science drowning out the voices of opposition: http://www.ae911truth.org/signpetition.php

    You misunderstood. The whole point I was making is that I believe that these accepted cosmological models may be incorrect, especially if they are all dependent on the unproven existence of dark matter. I was proposing a new model- the hypothetical possibility that we may pass through a 2-D plane where the pull of gravity is immediately reversed. In such a scenario (whether nonsense or not), this sudden change in gravity would have serious effects on our sun, and for every planet in our solar system.

    The galactic plane is unknown in position and in make-up, and the physics governing our galaxy is largely unknown. Therefore it is also unknown how many times our solar system has passed the plane, and the velocity of our system in relation to the plane.

    Also, the fossil record is unclear, easily corruptible, and not a dependable witness in my opinion.
     
  17. matthew809 Registered Senior Member

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    Sorry about the ad hom. I was drinking that night.

    Still, our galaxy's gravitational effects are not clear cut in the least. Isn't it at least conceptually possible that the black hole in the center of our galaxy causes it's gravity field to flatten out into a 2-D plane which stretches the length of the galaxy?

    So far, nobody has made any attempt to address this idea.
     
  18. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    3,576
    Since this is not a belief system, it really doesn't matter what you want to believe.

    Not clear cut- agreed.
    It's a matter of "levels of observational complexity."
    However, as these things go, celestial mechanics is much less complex than weather right here on Earth.
    Not to detract from the math involved...
    But yeah, the mechanics involved are simple by comparison.

    The reason for this is because space is So FREAKING BIG!! It takes a long time for the massive objects in it to move. Plenty of room for observation. Many potential factors are simply Overwhelmed by size and distance that would have been more active factors in a smaller, compact, fast system.

    It's like comparing a billiard table to a craps table.
    It's a pretty stark contrast to Quantum mechanics where all these infinitesimal runts are zipping around and your first scientific reaction is, "WTF WAS THAT?!"


    So, addressing your galactic core Black Hole.

    The SuperMassive Black Hole is just that-- Supermassive.
    However, gravitational tug is inverse square; Just as if our Sun Magically turned into a black hole right now, we would notice a lack of light and heat- but there would be pretty much No Change in Earths orbit or how much gravitational pull the Sun has on Earth.
    Cuz we're Really Freaking Far Away.

    It is not conceptually possible.

    That is a bit like saying, "Isn't it conceptually possible that since cars are really massive they should get yanked up into the air by the Moon?"
    It isn't conceptually possible and for such a thing to be 'addressed' would really require the claimant to present some hard evidence as to why such a strange thing could be even remotely possible.
     
  19. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    3,576
    Conspiracies do exist.
    Human nature relies heavily on deception.
    However, Human nature also relies heavily on individual differentiation.
    Although conspiracies can (And do) occur, the ability to successfully carry one out is Very Heavily dependent on how many people are involved. The more people you have involved, the odds of the conspiracy collapsing on itself increases exponentially.

    Dark Matter is a place holder upon which there is no set "Belief."
    Rather, all things in science are questioned and treated with skepticism.

    Personally, I dislike the concept of Dark Matter and I'm well aware I'm not alone in that. However, I cannot argue with the observational evidence and I have no better explanation to offer that evidence.

    I only dislike the Dark Matter construct because it's so speculative. Given more evidence, I would probably have no problem with the idea. Until better equipment yields better observations- I, for one, can only wait.
    This, in itself, is scientific. Finding that one assumption placed on another assumption is unsatisfactory is logical and admirable to recognize.
    However...
    Yes, this is nonsense.
    Although you dislike the current model- your model is ten times worse and matches no observation.
    Science is not about speculating. It's about creating the Most Accurate Model you can given the evidence. This is why a Theory is a well supported idea- it's backed by evidence. This is why theories evolve as more evidence is made available. But new evidence doesn't make old evidence go away. It adds to it. It often leads to a modification of a theory.
    It's rare that a theory is scrapped. Very rare- although a great day for celebration when it does happen.



    This statement is inaccurate.
    There are unknowns but it's not one big unknown as you imply.
    This statement is also very inaccurate. Why do you think physics doesn't work? The computer you're using to relay your ideas speaks volumes against your claim. Physics works quite well, thank you.
    Ok, so addressed above is how it's not good to base assumptions upon assumptions. Yet, here you made a slew of them.

    What's up with that?

    The fossil record is off topic. However, your "opinion" is as inaccurate as your claims above.
    Simply discounting the evidence because you wish to believe something else is not scientific. Science is the critical mind of an investigator.
    This- is the work of a Believer In Denial.
    And a believer in denial rarely examines evidence.

    I suggest that if you are going to make claims-- You buckle down and start doing your homework. Research consists of more than a few minutes on google.
    Sitting in one spot staring into space and speculating about your personal beliefs is just not very impressive. That's why that activity never leads to papers published in peer reviewed journals.
     
  20. matthew809 Registered Senior Member

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    I admittedly don't understand the math behind physics(nor does a pitcher entirely understand the physics of a curve ball), but I do not think that this should disqualify me from imagining some real-world effects of physics.

    Here's my observation. The sun moves up and down across the galactic plane in it's journey around the galactic center. Can anyone explain to me the main gravitational force which would cause this sort of oscillating motion?

    Also, isn't it true that the fundamental nature of black holes are simply not understood? I'm no expert, but aren't black holes supposed to be a dimension-warping, conceptually baffling, enigmatic mystery wrapped in an infinitely misunderstood singularity.... or something like that? I wasn't aware that everyone but me has built a mini-black hole in their basement for a science project.

    Anyway, my point is that nobody really knows the true nature of black holes. And also, nobody really understands the true nature of gravity. We only have temporary models; models which are restricted by our limited human ability to understand it. To think that everything can be understood by the human mind is what is "nonsense". Perhaps black holes mark that point when human understanding begins to break down and have no relevance. Maybe all your knowledge and understanding is getting in the way of seeing the bigger picture.

    It's not from fault that I am able to imagine nonsensical things.
     
  21. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    I think I understand your root misconception here.

    You seem to think that the sun bobs up and down through the galactic plane... Like a mass on a spring, and like a mass on a tehre must be some restoring force that pulls it back into the middle, and so on and so forth.

    However, that's not quite how it works. Physics predicts that the Sun orbits around the center of masd of the Galaxy (more or less). This orbit is inclined at some angle to the galactic plane, meaning, that just as the planets in the solar system have ascending and descending nodes where they pass through the plane of the ecliptic, the sun must also have an ascending and descending node, where it pass through the galactic plane. This up and down motion that people think of when they talk about the sun moving through the galactic plane is quite simply the vertical component of the suns inclined orbit around the center of the galaxy, as opposed to some oscillation with a restoring force, like a mass on a spring.
     
  22. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    3,576
    Why do you think that?

    I cannot list on both hands and maybe my toes, all the times what I thought was "common horse sense" intuition was flat out wrong when compared with the actual physics.

    A cat doesn't calculate and 'do the math' prior to a gauged jump. It's a combination of experience and genetic programming that allows the cat to make educated guesses.

    You are correct that a guess can have value. But 'can' is not the same as 'should, does or probably.'

    Can you speculate and imagine?
    ABSOLUTELY!
    That's fun, really- it's what makes science interesting.

    But if you attack others (You apologized earlier and I'm not discounting that- only making the example into an act of clarity), promote speculation as fact or as likely in disregard of scientific evidence... these go beyond imagining and guessing.

    I sit around imagining and guessing, too. Hell, I'd have some boring nights if I didn't

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    Stargazing is a HUGE inspiration to set my imagination winging off all kinds of strange ideas.
    But after I climb down off the roof of the house and go inside- I must open books and get re-grounded in reality.

    In a grounded discussion of science, imagination holds little sway.

    From your posts, you seem intelligent. What's to stop you from learning the math you admit to not knowing?
    It's daunting when you first start, but once you get moving, it's quite liberating to crunch the numbers and see tangible results.

    In my rudimentary understanding, the oscillation is a factor of a group of forces at work.
    Someone far more educated on the matter would give a far better answer than I- and I suggest checking with more knowledgeable resources.
    But real quickly...

    The Sun is a massive object floating in a VERY vast amount of space.
    Stop thinking of the galactic center as a gravity source for the Suns motion by itself. Because at our distance, the mass in the center of the galaxy still has an Infinitesimal pull on our Sun. It's tiny.
    What you have a cumulative effect.
    The gravity well at the center of the galaxy acts upon those bodies nearest to it. These objects, which also have gravity, act upon the next bodies closest to it.
    Imagine a Locomotive pulling out from the station. The locomotive doesn't just start pulling the entire train of cars. It pulls only the first car. There is a gap between connectors to allow the locomotive to build momentum when pulling the first car. As it pulls, the gap closes as momentum builds and then finally seals- the next car gets tugged. And so on down the line, each time the locomotive pulls one car at a time until the entire line of freight is moving.

    This analogy, although imperfect, is similar to the interactions of gravity within our galaxy. Each body acts on the nearest ones to it. The strongest gravitational tug wins. Eventually, the result is a spiral pattern- that we now observe. If the Suns were gravitationally bound to the Galaxy hub, the spokes (arms) would be straight lines, not curved in a spiral.

    Obviously, this will lead to oscillation since the galaxy hub is not solely responsible for the Suns motion. The Sun is being tugged along a chain of forces that surround it. The strongest cumulative effect is the one that orbits the galaxy center.
    Edit to add: I still worded this badly. Trippy, above reduced it to much more concise wording so easily. I hate it. The heck? Why can't I do that.
    he said it summed up in two words: "Inclined Planes."
    In other words, the many different gravitational planes will result in objects have different inclinations of orbit. If everything orbited the Hub, you would not see that, it would be like a flat disk.
    LHC? "chuckle"
    The purpose of the LHC is to find the Higgs Boson, however, mini black holes would be a bonus

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    Ok ok ok ok....

    Black Holes are a theoretical concept that, thus far, match observation very well. However, you're correct- the warping of space within such extremes tends to break our human invented mathematics measurements down or stretches them into infinities.
    There is a GREAT DEAL that is understood.
    There is much that is still not yet determined.
    You cannot just call it at black vs white. Yes, there is quite a bit about Black Holes that is not understood, but that in itself doesn't mean they are "Simply not understood."
    I understand a Great Deal about how my truck works, even if I do not understand Every Last Detail about how it works.
    My truck is no mystery. Black Holes are more mysterious than my truck, so that was a weak analogy at best- But I think you get my point.
    What do you mean? What "True Nature" do you speak of? You seem to assume no one knows what a black hole is or something. That POINT is inaccurate. As I addressed above.
    LHC!! "Grin!"
    Yes, we Do understand a LOT about gravity. But we don't know WHY gravity is... That's true. No one can say exactly what causes gravity. But we're workin' on it

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    Restricted to models, yes. It must be so. But do not underestimate the human mind. It's a powerful object, indeed.
    Knowledge and understanding can only augment gaining more knowledge.

    You seem to be trying to refer to the accusation of "Arrogance" in which a person thinks they have it all figured out and they don't.

    We are not in a black hole. We're out here. And so far, our knowledge has demonstrated itself to be reliable and effective. It produces results that lead to advancement and progress.
    Your point that arrogance can inhibit that is TRUE and any person must approach their own ideas with caution- Even you.

    We all imagine nonsense.
    Man... You should see some of the wacky stuff I come up with.

    But imagine it responsibly. Have fun with it- enjoy it- in its place.
    But when in a place where imagination holds little weight next to demonstrated knowledge, you must adapt.

    I apologize for writing a novel here. I am still struggling with how to learn to be concise.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2010
  23. matthew809 Registered Senior Member

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    You are apparently right about the root of my misconception. It was my understanding that the sun bobs up and down in relation to it's mean galactic orbit, thereby passing the galactic plane, potentially, many times in one revolution around the center.

    But you are saying that our solar system travels in a purely elliptical path around the galactic center, and only passes the galactic plane twice per revolution?
     

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