Suspected shoplifter dies after being detained at California Walmart

What oops? That has nothing to do with Bells post to me, nor to a flamewar. It's an opinion.
If a thief violently attacks a guard- he's fair game. I stand by that and you're lies aren't going to intimidate me into backing down.

Now, I will refer to the two- now a total of three in the thread - articles above.

It's possible, that Bells, having read an article that implies and hints that the suspect could have been falsely accused, arrived at that conclusion and I, reading an article that covers basic theft, an attempt to stop him and his reaction of violence arrived at a different one. In post number 2, I said, sarcastically, that there's not enough info.

Repeatedly myself and other members have said there's not enough info.
And all this talk of who started it is childish. What really is funny is that talking between myself and others was mostly calm. I stated my impressions and opinions....
Let's see... I've pissed Syne off in another thread. Oh and Lightgigantic. That's a given...

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So where am I starting all these flamewars, exactly?

 

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Such behavior requires either absolutely no self-awareness, or the largest pair of adult male testicles on the planet.

 

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So is there anything that wants to discuss the actual facts of the case, or at this point are we limited to criticizing people's opinions and perceived characters for said opinions?

 

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Give it a rest, man.

 

That's what I do when I perceive someone to be crazy. I don't know. It usually works. I'm not saying that I think anyone in this discussion is crazy but if that is how you perceive neverfly, then yeah that would be my advice. It has been my reaction with several posters throughout the forum.

 

Yeah, that's what I meant. Glad we agree.

BTW, thanks for making me picture "the largest pair of adult male testicles on the planet." I doubt I'll sleep tonight. It really sucks picturing everything you hear or read....

 

Again, the people complaining the most about thread derailment and insults are the people doing the most derailing and insulting--you and Neverfly.

 

Where have I been insulting or derailing? Can you direct me to my exact words.

 

I've reported posts and since Mod is active in the thread, she can read those reports.

Enough is Enough.
I will refrain from posting in this thread until this issue is resolved.
To other posters- please carry on. This may be an interesting story.

 

Bells already has in her responses to you. Do you need me to link you to those posts, or can you handle that on your own?

Stop complaining about the way people debate. Stop accusing people of being "emotionally charged." Stop defending trolls attempting to start flame wars. Concern yourself with the debate. Right now you're just siding with Neverfly for the sake of it, and Bells has shown you the error of that decision.

 

Oh, I thought you meant "controversy" as in when you first said that you think criminals should be put to death. If you mean controversy as in when you started the flamewar, I can show you right now. In response to my comment about guards having a responsibility to make sure they don't kill the person they're detaining, you said:

Do I need to continue? You also called me a monster, then said:

Shall I go on, or can you for once admit that you were wrong and promise to not get so personal from now on?

 

I need you to link me to the posts. I can't handle it on my own. I still want to discuss the OP. Not the spat between Bells and Neverfly. I rebutted some of her assertions, asked for clarification of others, and supported some of her other points. I stayed on topic. I did not derail. And I did not take a side. I did not say Neverfly was right. I did say that he is no more wrong than Bells is. I acknowledge that he has an opinion based on assumptions as does she. I did not attack anyone for having an opinion that I considered wrong.

Character attacks are behaviors associated with being emotionally charged by the way. I see Bells attacking a poster's character, so I stated that she seems emotionally charged. If she is not then maybe she should refrain from character attacks. I did not see any character attacks from Neverfly against any posters. He suggested the man in the article that is now dead may have had a questionable character. I said his assessment may be premature. Just as I said Bells assessment of the guards may be premature. How have I derailed? If Bells took offense (which is by the way an emotional response) to my suggesting she is emotionally charged, then I'm sorry she feels (feels is another way of saying experiences an emotion) that way.

 

That ends the discussion between you and me, because that's obviously BS. You can find the posts yourself. You even responded to them, so I'm sure you remember where they are. I'm not taking the troll bait.

 

informative.
Now, there's an interesting word. in-form. Hmmmm informal means not formal. yet, inquisitiveness, means to be quizzical.

 

While stealing is wrong, it's a matter of degree. A life is worth more than some Walmart crap. If the person really did get violent, then maybe it was a case of security defending themselves. Or, perhaps it was a precondition, he had a heart attack and died. Or gagged?

BUT, what if the guy was running, got tackled, made a small measly slap at one of the security guards which led to the other guard kicking him repeatedly in the head? Over soap and a slap? What if we found out this man was stealing for his daughter and he was an only parent and had lost his job and was on the edge of loosing his home, the soap and cloths were baby soap and baby cloths? He was desperate and had never done anything like this before in his life. It was a once off, he just lost it out of worry he couldn't provide for his daughter.



I'm not saying this was the case, but, made in China crap is not worth a life.

 

New information in the case

I wonder if the employees had reasonable opportunity to respond to his screams? Ideally we should always take screams like this seriously, but I can see some people assuming it was just a means to trick them into letting him go. I used to watch cops and I do not know how many times suspects would cry "You're Killing Me!" When in reality they were only sustaining mild injuries because they were struggling with the officers. I am not saying that they should have ignored his cries, I am only saying that I can see why they may not have responded as they should have. Preexisting misconceptions.

It would seem, that they did not have time to assess the suspect before cops got there. It is also said earlier in the article that police are not sure if he was tackled or if he fell forward.

I think it was likely a little of both. There was mention of making it to a speed bump and then he went down and it looked as if the two employees tackled him. It seems the police are not totally convinced it was an actual tackle. I think, from a distance a man going down with hands on him can look like a tackle even if it is a failed attempt to keep him from falling. But I guess, unless they release the video we can't really come to any real conclusion here.

So these guys were NOT security, which increases the possibility that they did not use Proper security training in taking down a suspect without causing unreasonable injury. And they likely were not made aware of policy procedures specific to security personnel.

So they didn't call for an ambulance because when the call was made, which was likely from inside the store, there was no apparent medical distress. The apprehension took place outside the store, likely no where near a phone. So the person placing the call was not likely to be aware of what was happening outside. We don't even know if the two employees had phones on them or not.

I know of too many mothers who have perfect angels in jail for far worse than shoplifting. And having a history of drug problems is suggestive that at the very least his health was not likely to have been in the best condition. A mother's perception of her adult child is rarely accurate. Clean and sober is one thing but who were the two people with him and what influence, if any, were they having on his behavior?They were all three suspected, together, of shoplifting and the case against them is still pending. I guess we will have to wait for more info to see where that goes. Since the two employees were NOT security, it IS reasonable to conceive that maybe they simply scared the hell out of the guy and he reacted violently. But if that is the case, that still doesn't necessarily mean they acted inappropriately. I don't know if it is legal in California to try to stop someone from leaving with your property if they are stealing it. It varies state by state.

So in this case we have to ask, did they do anything besides get him to the ground? And did they do anything that could be construed as self defense? Are they claiming self defense? If so, how did they feel threatened?

And of course, the actual cause of death is still not determined at this point.

It doesn't appear that the police see any initial evidence of a crime on the employees part since they have not been arrested. I think if they perceived evidence of excessive force they would have arrested someone. But that may just be naive faith in the police.

 

since when have you cared about the facts? you have a nice track record of selectively choosing facts and evidence to mold it to what you want to believe.

 

Thats what I thought probably happened, not bashing someone up till they die, just a knee in the back of someone face down on the ground, with there chest getting tighter and tighter as the person exhales. It's the same way constricting snakes kill. I would guess this is actually how most nonacidental deaths in custody (that are the fault of the cops and security guards etc) actually happens. Not delibrate murder but manslaughter or negligent homocide.

When ambos restrain patients on the other hand they do it face up with one person on each limb at least and 2 people treating

 

I said I reported posts. I said I would refrain.
But you know what I think?

I think reporting her posts does no good.
Fine- I'll point out a few things. I'll defend myself.

Bells, this demonstrates that you are not reading the articles or following what is said.

Bells; Saying they "Inflicted the Death Penalty" is an emotionally charged Rant. It is inaccurate and out of line.

Comparing criminals is not. Comparing officer action is legitimate. Comparing officer response and action is legitimate. The cannibal was unarmed too- But being threatening. He got shot. I pointed out he was hooped up on drugs.

Saying I'm not a bleeding heart liberal is a statement of fact. Not a character attack on anyone. It is directed at myself.

Saying I'm a Monster is a statement of myself- Not a character attack on anyone. It is directed at myself. The time JDawg claimed I called him a Monster- I had only said he would be IF He believed people could not defend themselves from attack.

Responding to JDawgs "Armchair Hero" comment as I had was probably poor judgment. If I must apologize for that, I will.
Not that it matters that JDawg said that, right?
That's about the ONLY thing you could have said I did wrong.

However, you aggressively claiming that I support killing petty crooks is NOT a statement of fact and IS a character attack. I did not say that, I said I don't pity a man that attacks those that stop him from a crime.

You saying that I Have no respect of the law- IS a character attack.

You are intellectually Dishonest, Bells.
Your charges are dishonest. Your description of events is dishonest.
You turn discussions into nightmares like THIS.
How many other members- CHECK- HOW MANY have these kinds of arguments with me? You are the Only One, BELLS. I'm Fed up with your appalling behavior.
Syne was pissed off, but it's not THIS caliber. It wasn't nightmarish. I was able to ignore a lot of his charges of being Mentally Deficient, etc.
But with you-it's EVERY THREAD we both participate on. Every Time. Is it that you want to push me over the edge so I get myself banned, Bells? Is that it? Is that what you want? If you want me off the forum, just SAY so. Say, "I don't want you here, Neverfly." There's no need for this dramatic CRAP. Just SAY it. I'll be happy to leave this forum all on my own- and not have to deal with HUGE FIGHTS in EVERY THREAD we both discuss in! I did it for two years before after your First encounter with me when you drove me from the site.

I don't know what your obsession is with ensuring every time we discuss something in a thread it turns into this but you need to BACK OFF.