London riots: Violence erupts for third day

There is nothing new about the class divide in England. Just go back to the 70's and Thatcherism (Reagan's policies being her US counter-part) and you may or may not recall the miner union strike, clashes with police and race riots, cars set on fire; granted they didn't loot and burn the whole bloody thing down but it was just as intense.

As they say 'Cause London is drowning, and I live by the river' (The Clash)

 

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I've read enough to know you think that they need understanding, and I agree. They need to understand that without the shops and shopkeepers they would not have the sustenance or energy to create such a ruckus..For the love of john, if you can't listen to the liberal residents here just listen to the rioters that are being interviewed. Of course you may not even trust your own ears being raised in such a wickedly capitalist environment...Many of these childrens parents have never even had to LOOK for a job, is that correct? If this is taking control of their futures they will enjoy the benefits of an even more battered environment..That they have never been taught that in a most progressive state is telling.

Your posts are a great illustration of why GUSTAV would be rioting..I'm not sure these kids share your thirst for history...but most of the rioter I've seen in the footage could probably spare some designer clothing to send to to you in India. That's you in the middle, right?
C'mon. We all know your smarter than this. You're doing your best to plant seeds. Opportunist.

 

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Well turning completely away from socialist programs is hardly what I would call 'progressive' but I do think its telling that they could find no other way of showing dissent. If there were more political community adhesion then perhaps all of that energy could have been used to peacefully protest and rally politically, at least frame their issues within a political movement but it seems they are disconnected from these methods. What I do find interesting is when middle-class students, perhaps five months ago, had a protest against education price hikes in London where it all turned ugly and property was defaced, they set cars on fire, threw petrol bombs at police and even had the gall to smash the glass of the vehicle within which Camilla and Charles were being driven, almost taking off his head with a stick, I don't recall anyone referring to them as 'thugs'.

 

Note for SAM,
On Duggan the BBC reports:

( Source: BBC)

This means if he had been "executed" face down on the tarmac, he would of had the wound somewhere else.

Incidentally they are still looking for "Witnesses" to the shooting, however I'm pretty sure it will eventually call for using the same sort of Surveillance used by the Military to Overwatch police operations in the future.

 

Funnily enough prior to the riots one of the main concerns was "The High Streets". If you didn't already guess in England these use to be the main streets were people would trade, lots of small businesses use to bloom down this various roads.

However since the increase in consumerism and the competition between supermarkets has increased what warez they trade in, High Street's have slowly been dieing a death anyway with stores closing and companies going bankrupt. What small shops use to operate in them, likely looked towards moving to Malls, if large chain stores had left them enough space to operate in. The economic costs of operating small shops really didn't help growth for the most part.

This was often seen by rows of "TO LET" signs and the occasional "FOR SALE", along with the fogged out glass and absence of trade use of such premises.

In some respects the wanton destruction caused by the rioters in these areas, the vandalism, is likely going to create a needed cash injection into those areas to get them back into a place people want to trade. Of course this will also likely mean new layouts/designs for those Streets, perhaps placing particular "anti-riot" furniture for future use and "Gating the community".

 

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Samantha: Oh David, you're a riot!
David: Funny you should say that......

(In background)
Robert de Niro: "You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? Then who the hell else are you talkin' to?
Other man with white hair: Please, I beg you. Leave me alone.

David: Sorry, Samantha, I've got to go back to Blighty. The natives are revolting.
Samantha: They certainly are.
David and Samantha: Te he he
David: Well Tata then, Smoochums.
Samantha: Tata, Bungle
David: Taxi!

Robert de Niro: Yo, pink fellah, Dis is your lucky day.

 

have you seen his new goatee Captain . Strange ! Don't know if it is because of a movie . Probably . I got Me a goat sprouted right now . I kind of like it . It fits Me new musical profession pretty good . I though maybe he was copying Me for a while

 

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You tink I'm copying you. You tink I'm copying you............

MKG. What do you make of the rioting?

 

I don't know Captain . It is reminiscent of the Rodney King incident yet I think there is a growing swell of dissatisfied young people. Some of it could be the lack of opportunity in a world were it is politically correct not to engage in human activities. Bad humans . I also think there is pitting going down . Were as young people are pitted up against old people like when we were young we did with red and black ants . The red ants always won in California . They were just way bigger than the black ants .
I also think that the powers that be instigated the divide between the ages by the notion that old people are out dated and need to change . Violence is bound to erupt when the heat is turned up as it is extremely heated with the economic situation going down world wide.

I heard the middle east is mainly young people in there 30s or younger and that that it self added to the Arab spring . Dissatisfied youth of the 60s comes to mind. A revisiting so to speak . It was only a matter of time before it came back around again . Everybody likes nostalgia don't they. Hell look how Amy Winehouse made out with her retro sound of music . Did I tell you yet ? The Von-trap family is friends with Mary Westley . Some one I know very well . The hills are alive with the sound of Music . That 7% of separation is going to get Me in the end Captain .

If I was young I would be mad as hell . To watch my future vanish before me eyes because of a bunch of winey politicians stealing all the hope of Me future would be plenty enough to drive me over the edge .

Course maybe they just wanted a flat screen T.V.
I like mine . don't think I would loot to get it . That is Me though . I still think you go to hell just the same as lying and killing . ( not littoral hell atheist, yarn spinning hell of your mind for being bad and destructive. The hell we live in , Like the riots in London hell right now )
That communist that blew into town ? He sounded posed to kill all the old fart capitalist. There seems to be a growing number that agree . I am wondering when more and more boomers retire if the strain of the entitlements will push more young people over the edge as governments look to the working class to collect revenues to meet the short falls . Working people pay taxes is my evidence . Most people with some money work. The Idol rich are a very small percentage and if they have no income then they will not be paying anyway , so that leaves the ambitious people crawl out of there lower stations in life . They will be the ones paying . The young entrepreneurs of the next generation . They will be the next to get the screws put to them , but I don't think they will take it laying on there backs .

Bigger concern . Is it contagious ? I predict civil unrest will continue to escalate until wood for Haiti succeeds and sets the new example of human endeavor . I know that is the end game . To many coinkidinks to not believe . It is like seeing your own shadow . So strange . It also helps to erase doubt . Starts with an earthquake . Lenny Bruce is not afraid ,

You know who Lenny Bruce was Captain ? I think he was an American if my memory serves Me right . You got the Beatles. I think we have Lenny . I hope we got him cause he was the Man in the day . Politically active comedian. I think he played a big roll in the advancement of sixties ideals . More of a beatnik type that lead to the revolution I believe

Looks like we might have procured a million board feet of lumber Captain . Yahoo . I can smell world salvation coming. We will be putting a shoe on that foot . Get the shoe horn and make it a big one Captain

 

Makes me mad as Hell too.

First thing now is to get these idiots caught and punished.
But there is an underlying inequality in Britain now which needs to be redressed, otherwise we are going to have a real revolution, not just people nicking TVs from Currys.

Have rioters been using these Blackberry guerilla tactics in the US?
Or did something start on this side of the Atlantic for once.

They are starting fires in one area to get police occupied, then they move to another and start looting.
Once they have looted, they start another fire and move on.
They use the Blackberries to tell each other where the next destination is.
Untrackable communication.

Hard to deal with without massive policing.


They are only using bricks and knives.
Imagine the same thing with guns.

 

You might be surprised at this G, but I agree with that part about immigration. The purpose of opening borders is to bring down wages.
It's Capitalist competition at work.

At the moment, in the UK, if a job is available, then anyone in Europe can apply for it.
If the job is low skilled, then the workers willing to work for the lowest wages "win" the job.

That's the lowest class screwed, but what of the Lower Middle Class / Rising Working Class.

Education to degree level was, until a few years ago, free for anyone in the UK.
But why educate people when you can import them from countries with lower costs. Or employ people anywhere in the world with telephones and computers.

Now kids must borrow money to educate themselves.
With not much chance of getting a decent job afterwards, unless they get to one of the top Universities.
Over three years, they will be £40,000 in debt.

They already can't afford to buy houses, which cost five times their building cost due to restriction on building land, and now this on top.

The Upper Middle class are still comfortable, but let me give them a warning.
You are next, boys.

Re the US.
Does anyone really believe that the American top 1% don't want an open Mexican border?
No stupid anti Mexican remarks please.
(I don't mean you personally G.)

They don't want cheap labour for their factories and homes?
If they didn't, it would be closed wouldn't it?
If it was affecting their back pocket, it would be shut pronto.

 

It's simply a glimpse in what anarchy is like. Dumb people getting to do what they like to do, hurt people for no reason and break shit.

 

They seem to have it all. To me this seems more like killing boredom. A way to have some thrilling moments.

 

Not really, within a cell net it can be define which area they are in making phone calls. For instance if they are all connected to the net in one cell area, that's potentially an increase in customers to those cell towers outside the usual "normal" figures.

Obviously events like music venues might generate higher figures on certain evenings, but when you are talking about various high streets that aren't likely occupied by highend clubs, it makes it a little easier to identify numbers.

Text messaging and phone calls are obviously easier to identify and trace, as well as data uploads like photo's. The telephones themselves might not have contracts and might actually have stolen sim cards in use, so they can be used to necessarily trace owners, but there is many other ways of identifying users.

The government has equipment that can be used to pull this information at any time, it's just up to them to decide to use them, in fact if they wanted to, they could even shutdown the phone networks in areas when required to blackout communication if need be (at least down to only emergency calls) Of course that would just spike the abuse of the emergency numbers during those lockdown situations.

(The government could easily of passed a law where every mobile phone node requires a government "control" transponder to maintain the signal from manipulation by foreign or domestic concerns.)

 

You're the one displaying "moral outrage" here:

This tactic wherein you go around accusing anyone who suggests that there's serious politics to be understood here, of endorsing and excusing crime, is cheap and nasty. You're attempting to use "moral outrage" over these crimes, to negate consideration of the underlying political issues. And substitute in its place a brutal authoritarian repression.

While I have little trouble taking that seriously, I do have a hard time respecting it. I don't see where I've made any point beyond the assertion that, however objectionable various actions in the unrest may be, the phenomenon still represents something with legitimate political content worth addressing seriously. That is what you are disagreeing with - exactly by asserting that the character of the unrest invalidates any serious consideration of its context and cause. And which point is pursued via emotional tactics of pissing on the character of those involved in the unrest, and tarring those who point to legitimate issues as apologists for criminality.

I'm pretty sure I've responded to this particular line (dismissing social unrest because it doesn't work like an organized democratic protest) several times already in this thread. It would be cool if you could actually respond to that as such, rather than simply repeating these talking points.

It will if people stop and think about the big picture seriously for a minute - and so, undertake serious measures to address the underlying issues.

If they indulge their knee-jerk reaction to Other the protesters as "scum" and double down on repression, of course not. The point being exactly that such an outcome is not inevitable - or morally justifiable, or acceptable - even if it is likely. Such likelihood is a further indictment of the British bourgeoisie, not a moral axiom that we must hold the underclass accountable to.

Maybe, just maybe, it's possible that both first-world countries and African failed states both have serious social problems that merit consideration.

Although I'll note the paternalist take, again: this is just another iteration of the old cliche "eat your vegetables, there are starving children in Africa that would kill for them." To which the age-old response suggests itself naturally: by all means, send the British riot cops to Somalia instead.

But note the actual reasoned outcome of your line of argument: England's problems don't merit addressing unless and until England comes to resemble Somalia. So if the underclass there wants its issues addressed, it follows directly that they should work to break down law and order in England and reduce it into Somalia. The quicker that happens, the quicker they'll merit consideration, apparently.

 

Did you fail to notice how the police stood by half the time and did nothing as they looted? They simply watched. Why do you think that is?

@Bells. Your thinking is going along the lines of my own on that one.

The orders came from the top.
Partly revenge for recently losing senior officers, and partly a blackmail attempt.
What the police were doing was showing what would happen if their numbers and overtime were cut.
Yet more corruption and pocket lining at work.

What has been going on in Britain has sickened me for years.
This is a boil coming to a head.