Israel Discovers Gas Reserves off of Haifa Coast

I thought that it had already succeeded. The UN has stated as much:


A UN human rights rapporteur has said continued settlement construction will probably make Israel's occupation of Palestinian land irreversible.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11611658

I mean how on earth do you think they could reverse such a thing a replacement?

 

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I already consider the two state solution as history. Right now, the only debate is the time point at which all the residents attain equal civil rights. In a way, I think the US commitment to an "undivided" Jerusalem is a step in the right direction.

Back on topic - here is a good objective look at possible political outcomes from the natural gas find

http://www.wfs.org/content/israels-natural-gas-discovery-five-possible-scenarios

One more on the economic outcomes

http://www.realclearworld.com/artic...impact_of_israels_natural_gas_find_99340.html

 

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Well yes but then the Palestinians have to give up the dream of a state and throw out those old locks they keep handing from generation to generation. Do you think they can manage that psychologically? Also it would probably mean no right of return for the refugees.

 

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Good article. I don't think they will take on the domestic only route. I mean why would they when exporting would bring in so many profits and added political pull?

The worse worse scenario would be terrorist sabotage. That would ruin everything for everyone as the pay back would be hard and swift and merciless. Hopefully this can renew ties between Israel and its neighbors and perhaps, if they are wise, they will come to some understanding with Lebanon. If Lebanon and other countries can find their own reserves this would also help increase the wealth in the neighborhood and perhaps lead to some relief in benefits for the Palestinians.

 

I don't think the right of return for refugees is particularly relevant at this time, its the definition of the state itself which is important. I doubt that Palestinians would want to live in a state which defines itself as Jewish [anymore than Jews would want to live in a state that defines itself as Aryan] but economics trumps ideology at all times and they would take an Israeli citizenship over a dispossession. However, as long as the state is defined as Jewish, there will be apartheid and "demographic bombs" to contend with. As for single state, Palestinians are more likely to agree to one than Israelis are because - obviously - no matter how many refugees they do not allow to return, there is nothing they can do about the number of Palestinians already resident within the occupied territories.

At some point, Israelis are going to be overwhelmingly non-Jewish [not the least because Judaism is a Stone Age religion and hard to adhere to in modern society where religion by blood is an anachronism] and the reasoning behind maintaining a Jewish state morally vapid.

 

The Palestinians for sure would go through a period similar to the segregation issues that plagued African-americans but that would lead to winnable fight which is that of equitable rights and standards, their own civil rights movement. I've never understood how anyone could tolerate an economically undeveloped underclass in their midst, it ruins everything. Even if Palestinians and Jews do not live interdispersed the advantages should be leveled in a more equitable way. But I've always loved the Swedish model where the goal is higher standards for everyone and not the dog eat dog society you find in other societies. I mean why would anyone want to live next to an economically disadvantaged ghetto? Its healing those long standing wounds that will be the bitch to deal with.

 

Dog eat dog societies are typically those which have lived in segregated communities for whatever reason. There is a notion of saving face before others by being better than they are - or keeping them under your thumb. The problem with Israel is that it has become the "shanda fur di goyim" for all Jews. And there is little it can do to recover its image [just see the global hoo-ha over the death of Jawahar]

I'm not much up to date with Swedish society, perhaps they have never lived in a segregated society? It would be interesting to see the differences between immigrant communities and native Swedes in terms of priorities for family and community.

 

Well not until recently and its not proving a success and that has to do with integration issues. I believe there is more in common between jews and palestinians than there are between muslim immigrants and swedes.

 

I'm not certain why people think this. What do you think an Israeli Jew would have in common with a Palestinian? A lot of "Israeli culture" is basically adopted from Palestinians - but thats like Britishers making curry their national dish. I believe even among Jews, Mizrahi [Arab] Jews have little in common with their European brethren.

If you like we can start a second thread on this. I've heard many people saying this about Palestinians and Israelis but I don't know what they mean.

Missed this:

Terrorism would be a concern if there is no agreement between Israel and Lebanon on the rights to the reserves. If Lebanon had a stake in the gas output, the Hezbullah are less likely to attack it. But its more likely that just as Israel routinely invades Lebanese air space it will invade Lebanese marine space. "National Security" will be a good excuse to pop some missiles over the Litani especially since Israel still has visions of expanding to the Litani

I think your expectations about sharing are too high where Israel is concerned. Sharing is not an Israeli attribute - their ideology is all about keeping things distinct and separate between the People and the goyim. Hence all the segregation between Jews and non-Jews - they even add the Hebrew date of birth to the driving licence in Israel. They refer to intermarriage between Jews and non-Jews as the Second Silent Holocaust. Rabbis pass fatwas declaring that homes should not be rented to Arabs and the government builds Arabrein settlements and apartments. Can you see the same people thinking of their Arab neighbours in terms of mutual benefit? I hope they can and I wish they could, but realistically speaking, I would more likely see them as all out to get what they can for themselves alone.

No, I wouldn't have any expectations from such a society when it comes to neighbourly love.

 

Ok, sure we can start a new thread on that one since its in depth and would distract greatly from this topic.

But Sam I thought Lebanon had already set limits on their territorial boundaries and that the reserves were outside of that area? I was going to say that maybe the Israeli's would have been open to negotiation on the reserves for the sake of security but after reading what the Israeli officials had to say I doubt that's going to happen.

African-Americans and white americans also had these same issues of separation and segregation but they are slowly moving away from that even though there is still a good degree of racism. Maybe we should combine this subject with that of the differences and similarities between Palestinians and Israelis. The topic of what integration would look like in a one state scenario should be discussed as Israel has its own quirks dissimilar to the States or Europe.

 

Both Israel and Lebanon insist that the reserves are within their territories. So it doesn't seem cut and dried. Since I have no illustrative maps I have no clue who is right

One more point I came across was that current Israeli laws only provide tax revenues of 12.5% from oil and natural gas production profits. Israel now plans to increase these taxes to obtain between 50-80% of profits as taxes. If Israel goes forward with these legal strictures, they may find that Noble and Co look for other prospects in the region [edit: not likely, since Noble is owned by an Israeli]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704421104575463552570631976.html

I managed to find a picture of the gas fields

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Also this:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3914759,00.html

Okay, why don't you start with what you think are the similarities in a new thread and I'll read and think and respond to your opinions?

 

Oh I was hoping you would start it

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I did read that an effort to draw heavy taxes for social programs might be a problem but I think there is so much money involved that they should be able to come to a compromise. Unless of course Israel can afford to develop the venture independently which of course they cannot.

 

Done

But Noble is owned by an Israeli, so how is this not an independent venture?

 

Where did you discover that? Noble is a Houston based company. I thought it wholly American. By the way I posted in the other thread.

 

You're right, I misread the ynet article on Yitzhak Tshuva

 

Not one of those links except maybe the video, which does not count, features a headline telling us of a gas field found off Lebanon's coast, or Gaza's coast.

Most prominently feature mention of Israeli waters, possession, etc - the assumption is curious, in ostensible "news" articles, especially when:

Apparently, according to several articles I found (and briefly in one or two of those you linked), no one involved has released a map clearly locating the find.

In my experience with Israeli news handouts, that is not an accident - and indicates a problem with the Israeli version of events.

According to articles both you and I have linked, the field extends into the territorial waters of Cyprus, Turkey, Lebanon, Israel, and Syria. A couple of analysts have mentioned Cyprus as being a natural mediator in the inevitable disputes.

Israel currently occupies territory belonging to Lebanon, and has refused to set its boundaries relative to that country.