Harry Potter Star Afshan Azad Attacked by Father, Brother in attempted Honor Killing

Word of the Day

Is "eradicate" your Word of the Day?

 

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It's silly to think we can eradicate this culture, they will only feel offended and circle the wagons.

 

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Well...not exactly.

You can indeed find numerous misogynistic ayahs in the Quran: we could get into the usual endless argument about them, but I think it would be easier to just point you to something like this.

Now, it's true that the weight of this religious misogyny in law depends entirely on the makers of that law - as any law. But I don't think you can look broadly at the Islamic world and say that it's merely a cultural phenomenon: of which culture common to them all, then? What is it all these Islamic countries have in common, then?

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The one springs from the other, and it's foolish to claim otherwise. Several Islamic countries have got out of this rut - Turkey being one - but we can't simply deny it occurs. (I suppose it would normally go without saying, but the South American situation, and its apparent legal defense, is also deplorable.) It seems fairly apparent that religious misogyny has been translated into legal and/or social misogyny. You'll find the same in other religions, of course.

The question I was discussing with Bells...before she apparently got tipsy and logged off

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shrug

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...was with what frequency it occurs outside such nations.

Look, as a comparison: what is the scriptural basis for "honour killings" or whatever one chooses to call the phenomenon in Hindu cultures, or South American ones? (In the latter case, one might point to Christian doctrine, although it would be hard IMHO to reconcile that with the whole stone-throwing parable. Maybe one could infer a 'poisoned cultural perspective' from Corinthians.) If nothing, then you could say it was cultural in these cases, but I don't think it applies to the one under discussion.

 

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Because Americans are humans, too

True, but the question at hand wasn't about misogyny in general. It was the proposition that honor killing is codified in Muslim religion. At the basis of that religion is the Qu'ran, in which there is no such standard. Honor killing arose as a cultural addition.

I wholeheartedly support her stiff drink last night. Indeed, I would have been stoned out of my mind last night if I had any reliable dealers. We just finished up some tough, mindbending business in the back room last night. Leave that part be. Once the headache wears off, she'll be back.

One need not look to parables. There's a bit in the Old Testament about poisoning your wife. I'll dig it up if we really need it.

But, in consideration of that, a question emerges for those so hell-bent on indicting Islam: What will it take for Muslims to imitate Christians with a diminished regard for holy scripture?

That is how you get around these cultural ideas. Over time, Christians in the West have taken the Bible less and less seriously. Infect them with capitalism, spike them with Freud. Keep them comparatively affluent and horny. Essentially, convince them of the great merits of heresy and apostasy. It worked for Americans.

 

How do you reach that conclusion?

http://www.soundvision.com/Info/domesticviolence/statistics.asp

 

Why would Muslim women report beatings? And how? They often cannot even leave the house without a male relative. Here in the US, it's underreported but definately not tolerated. An abused woman can get help from the police. So we have statistics.

 

Honestly, I think that's obvious

We're the foremost empire in the world. Our domestic violence is a matter of stupidity and sexism, and not tinged with religious rhetoric. We seem to have chosen apostasy over faith. Human endeavors are imperfect, as humans are imperfect. But we have managed to transform the context of our social ills into something more academic and psychological than outright spiritual.

Seriously, give people a reason to pay mere lip service to God, and they'll take it. For the sake of the species, though, make it a somewhat good reason.

 

So what?

Are we going to exempt, say, the consumerist inanities of Christmas celebrations from criticism of Christianity because it has no basis in the Gospels? When people refer to "Religion X," it ought to be understood that they're referring to the totality of customs, beliefs and practices associated with said religion, and not simply the subset that enjoy ironclad theological pedigrees.

Or, failing that, where are the criticisms of huge swaths of Islam (and every other religion, ever) for incorporating vast seams of cultural artifice? Whence, for that matter, the supposition that the contents of the scriptures are not themselves simply codified cultural baggage in the first place? This whole line of rhetoric, as it appears on SciForums, is looking an awful lot like nothing more than a pretext to avoid being seen to say anything critical about Islam, and not infrequently veers into no-true-Scotsman territory.

 

Yes. We are more advanced. It's one thing to kill some woman because she cheated on you, it's quite another to kill your own daughter for chatting on facebook. That's just insanity. It does seem to be centered in Islamic communities. I think that's because Islam supports an extreme form of patriarchy. It's the same motive behind female circumcision.

 

There is no support for or mention of support for female circumcision in Islam.

 

oh dear
i guess i am gonna have to sic rufus, my pitbull, on the goatman
oh and does anyone know if he is married? with daughters? dating?
they must be warned

/apprehensive

 

The sub issue I was addressing was Bells' flawed claim that the police and the courts had described the incident as domestic violence. They didn't. When I see gross inaccuracies in posts I begin to doubt everything that poster has to say on the matter. (I've looked at many of your posts. I believe you hold the same standards.)

 

What difference does it make to the abused women if its culture, religion or apostasy?

 

Wouldn't it be nice if...

at the end of the day, all domestic violence was reduced to a slap in the face? Either way - male / female or female / male. Too bad that's not the case.

Do you think that spousal abuse statistics vary by religious beliefs? Or, as Tiassa put it, by cultural beliefs, being differentiated from religious dogma? (I happen to think these "cultural" beliefs are highly influenced by the predominate religion, but whatever) Or none of the above? Why? (Assuming we could get accurate statistics, and yes, I grant the abuser is usually male, no matter the source you cite)

 

Excellent question. But reporting varies even where statistics are available [e.g. only 37% of rape cases are reported in the US - which is also an estimate] so its hard to compare.

 

what really disgusts me, perhaps more than the act of violence itself, is the failure to prosecute the perps. one really has no recourse to justice when the state sanctions this sort of conduct.

...or based on common law.....rule of thumb

"The husband also, by the old law, might give his wife moderate correction . . . in the same moderation that a man is allowed to correct his apprentices or children. . . . But with us, in the politer reign of Charles the Second [1660-'85], this power of correction began to be doubted; and a wife may now have security of the peace against her husband."

 

Yes there is, it's just not written down.