Spiral Galaxy Dynamics: Gravity Increase of Rotational Plane (GIRP)?

AN et al don't bother me at all. Reading up on these last posts just made me chuckle.

AN'al; Iain Nicolson is a highly respected expert with a distinguished career. The title of 'pop-science writer' is merely 'an extra string in his bow'. It takes someone of his calibre to be able to relate these difficult concepts to a lay audience. This is the sign of someone who knows their subject inside-out (unlike yourself).

The basic principle of gravity increasing at the rotational plane (GIRP) still applies whether the stars are oscillating above and below it. Your basic denial to even consider the notion means that you shouldn't be in the pseudoscience forum.

 

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I see you don't want to admit to deliberately trolling so instead you just avoid answering. I'm wondering if you're naive enough to think somehow you're 'putting me in my place' by avoiding anything and everything said to you. Do you really think denial is the best way to proceed?

I've explained why your qualitative concept is flawed. Of course if you can provide me with a quantitative model so that I can see for myself you've got a coherent logical concept you're working with that'd be much better. But something tells me you haven't got anything like that, you're too busy coming up with acronyms in the hopes they'll fool someone into thinking you're not a fraud.

 

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You make obviously untrue statements as if they were true. You are very deluded and you have anger management issues. Probably they stem from your arrogance and from the fact that you cannot deal with anyone who points out your ignorance about the depth of knowledge of people that you besmirch. Arrogance is not a virtue and you wear it like you were proud. Lowest character on the forum belongs to AN. Anyone disagree? I would have sent this by PM so we wouldn’t have to air it but you even lie about what is said in PM which are supposed to be private under any circumstances. Did I say low character?

I never said that, yet again you have attributed something to me by actually changing what the quote function produces and then inserting my name. Last time I caught you doing this you said it was accidental. What is your excuse this time? Fixation.

 

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So your PM saying "Fixated" or whatever it was, wasn't an attempt to wind me up? And it wasn't hypocritical either? Sure.

Actually in real life I'm pretty laid back, polite and pleasant. Because the people I associated with have demonstrated they're the kind of people I respect and like. You're neither. I am capable of being polite, I've done so many times on these forums but you and your crank friends have demonstrated that polite corrections of your many mistakes leads to you simply ignoring anything anyone says to you which doesn't pat you on the back. Unless they're a little more blunt.

I besmirch you and CSS. And the besmirching is valid.

I hardly think revealing that you sent a PM deliberately trying to wind me up and get a rise out of me, despite you posting in threads like this you were going to ignore me, is a huge invasion of privacy. It's perfectly valid evidence to illustrate your hypocrisy. I don't deny my arrogance when dealing with people like you because my self confidence in regards is the discussion of physics with you or CSS is perfectly justified. So while you can call me arrogant I'm not a hypocrite. You are. And you ignore how you and CSS massively overinflate the value of your 'contributions' while whining Prom and I take ourselves too seriously. Nice hypocrisy.

Accidental again. It's clear I'm quoting CSS, given I'm quoting the post previous to my own. No one reading the thread would mistake it for something you said. The fact you think I'm so 'fixated' that for some utterly pointless reason I'd change the quote from CSS to you (what on Earth does that accomplish) that you call me 'fixated' says more about you than me. I was forgetful in changing quotes, opps. I am, after all, not perfect. You seem to want me to be fixated. You keep trying to convince me I am, via PM and by repeatedly saying it here. I couldn't give a stuff about you. I post in other threads, I do other things with my time. Unlike you, the limit of my scientific discussions is not this forum.

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You protest too much and deny what is obviously true about yourself.

AlphaNumeric, you do not belong on any type of discussion forum but especially you should be banned from the Pseudoscience forum if you continue your antics here. Your first post in my first thread here was:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=82060

This was uncalled for under any rules of decorum.

Your next post was:

You spew unprovoked attacks like this everywhere you go. Why is it tolerated?

You never commented about the content of my thread and went immediately off into some arrogant challenge based on your zero intellect and infinite arrogance. You were obnoxious for no reason and you have been fixated on me in every QWC thread since then.

You have posted hundreds of posts while trolling my threads and not one has ever addressed my content using the quote feature and then shown I was ignorant, uninformed or incorrect. But the continual accusations that those things were true soon become the overall general impression with those who value your education and skills. Why bother to decide for themselves by reading my posts when they see your attitude? But you will say that I have been shown wrong and that I refuse to accept it when that is not the case. Where I have been wrong I have learned from it and have updated my ideas to incorporate the learning.

I’m discussing ideas that are not testable with current technology but they are not inconsistent with known science, observation or data. You have never attempted or at least succeeded to actually show me wrong yourself by quoting something and correcting it. It is your tactic to say I am wrong because you say so. Speculation does not itself warrant the treatment that it is given here, and my speculation is purposefully done with a methodology that distinguishes between reasonable and responsible speculation vs. idle, wild or fanciful speculation. If you don’t condone speculation fine, but at least say what specific speculation you object to and show some reason why you object. Otherwise you are an empty shirt.

Right from the beginning of my posting here at SciForums and notable I started in the Pseudoscience forum, you were slandering me and belittling ideas, claiming I was cramming my theory (and I never claimed it was theory, just ideas for discussion) down people’s throats, and using ad homs. It then turned into trolling because you entered every thread, never quoted what I said as far as content, never showed and never have been able to show where my ideas are not consistent with observations and data, and have acted like a total a**hole toward me without provocation. You shouldn’t be tolerated anywhere in a discussion forum, and especially your obtuse antics have no place in a Pseudoscience forum.

You don’t even deserve to be responded to by those you deride for no reason and with no discernible provocation. But when ignored in the Cosmology forum you whined to no end and even complained to the moderator that I was a crank to ignore the smart people regardless of the fact that you were hijacking and trolling all of my threads. Your low life posts show you have no self respect and are probably severely impaired socially. If you are not under evaluation mentally for delusions of grandeur or severe egoism you should at least be attending anger management sessions. You have no character and no redeeming qualities that could possibly overcome your sewer hole tactics in dealing with people who come to the forum to discuss ideas.

I suppose I should be making my case and going to the top but I can’t imagine that they are unaware of how you attack any hint of speculation that is meant for discussion. Maybe you are even encouraged by the fact that you are never challenged by the people who should care about those things in a forum environment. If speculation and discussion about speculation is not allowed in the hard science forums that is fine, but that rule should be applied to everyone. If we can’t speculate and discuss speculation in the Pseudoscience forum by non-professionals without having our posts trolled and threads derailed by the likes of obnoxious and arrogant low life like you, AlphaNumeric, then let James R or Stryder warn me to leave you alone or tell me there will be repercussions against me. Until then I is my intention to point out your obnoxious arrogance where ever it appears on a thread in Pseudoscience. Maybe that way we can bring your tactics to the attention of people who should care. If bringing attention to myself for attacking you brings repercussions on me then fine.

Until moderators or management warn me otherwise, I will address your obnoxious and arrogant posts as long as you persist in trolling threads in the Pseudoscience forum and attempt to squelch discussion or impose hard science demands when discussion is all that is intended. Maybe you want to whine to the evil administrator.

 

I elaborate on my views. I'm sorry if you think an explaination addressing points raised is too close to coherent rational conversation for comfort.

Practice what you preach.

Reiku and I go back a while and given you two were clearly enabling one another in that thread I didn't bother sugar coating what I said.

You keep saying 'fixate' but it's clear that isn't the case. Yes, I've replied to a number of threads you've made but because you post a lot of them and you make claims/statements which I disagree with. There's been plenty of posts of yours I haven't replied to. There's been plenty of posts not of yours I've replied to. Get over yourself, I wouldn't fixate on you, you aren't worth it.

Why bother with such blatent lies? Infact, I've previously commented that I'll quote you and reply to you, point by point, but then you'll mass quote (ie all at once) me and ignore the majority of what I've said.

But then so is Guest's 'Invisible Fairy Theory'. It's easy to come up with something which is not inconsistent with known science. Coming up with something which actually describes known science is another thing. For instance :

Idea 1 : The universe contains dark matter, which accounts for the spiral rotation profiles of galaxies and mostly exists as a 'halo' about the galactic core.

Idea 2 : The universe contains dark matter, which accounts for the spiral rotation profiles of galaxies and mostly exists as a 'halo' about the galactic core. The matter is made up of interdimensional fairy dust and smells of strawberries.

Idea 1 is an idea which was suggested to explain observations and from which testable predictions follow. Idea 2 is just as consistent and predictive as Idea 1 but obviously nonsense, the second part of it is just tacked onto the 'valid' bit. That's what you're doing, you take other people's ideas and tag on utterly random (ie what you like the sound of) speculations which add nothing to the original ideas and due to your method of random musing, you have no way of making it into a valid component of science.

String theory isn't testable yet but there's no reason to think that down the line it won't reach the point where it is testable. Your work doesn't have that, it'll forever remain an untestable, undevelopable set of things you like the sound of and ad hoc together into something CSS then invents an acronym for.

Speculation is fine. Questions like "Is there anything outside our universe?" "What kind of ideas are there for before the big bang?" or "Is time travel possible". All fine. But don't for a second think that simply making up pure fiction off the top of your head and slapping a title like "Quantum wave cosmology" means it's anything other than pure fiction. It's not that you're asking questions and speculating, it's that you furvently believe that you've got some kind of rigorous methodology to what you do, that if we all threw in our 2 cents on random speculation (ie avoiding considering any actual astronomical observations or current and previous cosmology in the mainstream) that you'd end up with anything other than pure fiction.

You're making grandeous claims and then just saying "Oh we'll work out the details later". It doesn't work like that. For instance, the idea of instantaneous transmission of gravity is a nice concept, being very simple (infinite propogation speed means no wave mechanics unlike gravity waves in GR) but no matter how much you tried to come up with the rigor for it, the maths to back it up its doomed to failure because we know gravity doesn't work like that. If you have no starting point, simply making random stuff up, then the chances are you're going to be way off in describing Nature. Its hard enough when you start from a set of phenomena you want to describe!

Do you see the difference between 'speculation' and what you and CSS do? You take your work to be much much more legit or methodical than it actually is.

Well I generally tend to belittle ideas I think should be belittled immediately. If you were saying something I didn't agree with, I told you so. And I've repeatedly said to you that I don't belittle speculation, I disagree with how you go about it and how you think anything close to science is actually done.

I never said 'crammed'. You have been trying to get people to think there's something to your work, that your methodology is sufficiently sound that its worth others getting in on it. I disagreed and said that I would want to point out to anyone naive enough not to see through your nonsense that it is precisely that, nonsense.

That's a lie. There's several threads you've got in Pseudo which I've not replied to. And given your threads tend to be on much the same topic as one another and you bring up the same issues I've clashed with you before on it's not like I'm going into threads on topics I wouldn't normally. You and CSS are two of the most prolific cranks in this forum and as I'm one of the arrogant "I don't like cranks" persons we cross paths a lot. It isn't 'stalking' or 'fixation', we're both fairly prolific posters. When QuantumQuack was posting a lot, I replied to him a lot. When Reiku was, I replied to him. I tend to clash with the 'crank of the month'. I don't reply to you a lot because I'm fixated on you, I reply to you a lot because you post a lot of stuff I deem cranky and I say so. If your stuff were posted under 10 different names I'd still reply to them. You need to realise I don't give a stuff about you on a personal level. It's the crankness of your posts, not you, that makes me reply.

You didn't like what Prom, Guest and I had to say (odd how 3 people who do science for a living didn't agree with you, must be a conspiracy!) so you called it trolling. You just couldn't accept bad reviews.

So you making hyperbolic assumptions about how I interact with people day to day from how I interact with you, someone I don't know and don't care to know, isn't being impolite or an ad hom? Why would I treat people I know day to day, people whom I spend time with because we have similar interests/jobs/views, as I treat a crank on an internet forum? Next week it's my 1 year anniversary with my gf. You previously said to Prom he'd be a miserable failure and likely socially inept, despite you knowing nothing of him personally. I had to point out he's got a wife. The fact you're unable to grasp that because you behave differently to how most people behave I treat you differently says more about your social interactions than mine.

Spiffy.

 

Your actions make that a lie. If it isn't fixation it is obnoxious arrogance, you choose.

 

At any time of a snap-shot of the profile of spiral galaxy, the stars towards the outer edge will tend to be closer to the plane of rotation. What's wrong with that statement of fact?

So? There's no need to consider the central bulge for the moment. Let's stick to the outer spiral arms for now.

So what? That's obvious stuff.

I don't get what you mean. You're presupposing something I'm not suggesting I think.[/QUOTE]

You need to try and understand my arguments a little bit more deeply than this. Give me some credit.

 

You arrogant twerp. You don't think that Nicolson isn't aware of the local satellite galaxies? To quote:

 

The average distance from the galactic plane is zero everywhere in the galaxy. What you mean to say is that the variance decreases as you move further from the galactic core. It's an important difference.

If your statement about the behaviour of gravity isn't valid for the central bulge then it isn't valid. You can't pick and choose which bits of the galaxy behave one way and which bits behave another.

And yet you needed to be told.

Earn it.

You said "(ii) small satellite galaxies not seen but expected by computer simulation ". If you are paraphrasing your information source to the point of distorting the facts I can't be blamed for that. And as I pointed out, the problem with a pop science book is that even when qualified statements are made they do not go into details showing precisely how they arrived at that. Does the author provide any references for his claims, as someone like Penrose would? If not then I'm enclined to defer to journal published work, irrespective of who the pop science author is. With the best will in the world facts must be distorted in order to be put into a book which is to be read by a layperson, since by the very nature of the distinction between pop science book and journal some of the details must be obscured. Dark matter models aren't perfect but the way you paraphrased that author was certainly not a valid reflection on the present state of research.

 

Okay then, so the decreasing variance of stars from the galactic core fits with the idea of gravity increasing towards the rotational plane.

You haven't convinced me why the idea doesn't fit with the central bulge. Would you care to explain again?

btw, I'm getting a positive response from another forum (a UK one). Someone actually understands the connection with the ice age mystery and thinks that it's a worthy and interesting topic of conversation; Could we detect dark matter at the centre of the earth?

 

No, it doesn't. If it did then when people use Newtonian gravity or GR to model galaxy formation they would not get end results which look like our galaxy, with the variance increasing as you move further from the core. But they do. Therefore this decreasing variance does not imply that gravity is somehow behaving differently, in the way you claim.

Phenomenon A implies Explaination B only if there's no Explaination C which predicts Phenomenon A.

If gravity was stronger on the galactic plane then it would be seen both far from the galactic core and near the galactic core. Yet we don't see that. The issue is that galaxy rotation near the centre seems to match what we'd expect but further out it doesn't, unless you include dark matter. You're claiming gravity is altered but it would alter both out from the centre and in near the centre. Your explaination alters the predicted phenomena both out on the arms of the galaxy and in the middle.

If you could provide a quantitative model then you'd be able to check it for yourself. But since you don't have that and I'm certain never will it is entirely academic whether your explaination covers both near to the core and also far from it, as you have nothing at all.

So? There's more than one person who believes in God, doesn't make them right. There's more than one person who believes they've been abducted by aliens, doesn't mean they have. q_w on these forums thinks your ideas are worth discussing, doesn't mean they have any scientific validity or are anything more than flights of fancy.

If you post an idea, no matter how stupid or insane or nonsensical, on enough forums you'll find someone who agrees with you. The internet is awash with crackpots and idiots agreeing with one another, doesn't mean they aren't crackpots or idiots.

Simply throwing out any 'explaination' which comes into your head as an 'elegant and simple' explaination for some bit of science you don't grasp doesn't make you right. If you're not lying about having done an astronomy degree you know the difference between a pop science book and a textbook. If, when discussing your ideas, you can't give the same level of detail as a textbook then you've not got anything. Vapid explainations are easy to come up with, anyone can make one up instantly for anything. The devil is in the details.

 

True.

You seem incapable of participating in discussions in Pseudoscience without tossing out the obnoxious arrogance aspect of your personality. Hard science isn't being done in the Pseudoscience. For you to be so ignorant as to think discussions here have to comply with the standards in the hard science forums then it is your mental deficiency not the deficiency of the people discussing ideas in Pseudoscience.

 

Thanks QW, he'll never change though.

AN; you haven't given me any links to papers or articles refuting this idea. I only have your interpretation that the dynamics of the galactic central bulge doesn't fit with the idea of gravity increasing towards the rotational plane. Can't you give me something a bit more conclusive? btw the other forum is astronomy only, and a bit of a higher standard IMHO.

 

AN; I heard this song this morning and thought of you, "I am a scientist" by Guided by Voices:

I am a scientist - i seek to understand me
All of my impurities and evils yet unknown
I am a journalist - i write to you to show you
I am an incurable
And nothing else behaves like me

And i know what's right
But i'm losing sight
Of the clues for which i search and choose
To abuse
To just unlock my mind
Yeah, and just unlock my mind

I am a pharmacist
Prescriptions i will fill you
Potions, pills and medicines
To ease your painful lives
I am a lost soul
I shoot myself with rock & roll
The hole i dig is bottomless
But nothing else can set me free

And i know what's right
But i'm losing sight
Of the clues for which i search and choose
To abuse
To just unlock my mind
Yeah, and just unlock my mind

I am a scientist - i seek to understand me
I am an incurable and nothing else behaves like me

Everything is right
Everything works out right
Everything fades from sight
Because that's alright with me

I bet it sounds like me to you too!

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You've provided no model which is to be tested or any experimental evidence for your claims. The onus is on those making the claims to back them up.

The fact it's a non-trivial matter to modify gravity to get anything close to the observed rotation profiles (else MOND would have easily succeeded) suggests the problem is harder than you might think.

Rather than throwing out vapid explainations, which anyone can do, why not actually provide something which is worth refuting? Rotation profiles are caused by aether interacting with 'galactic wind' (ie the galactic version of the solar wind) and the resultant change in the cosmological constant at the galaxy version of the heliopause. There, an explaination I just did off the top of my head. Easy.

But you don't even meet standards here. Despite all your claims for explainations of things you've not actually come up with anything worthwhile, you repeatedly show you don't know cosmology/astronomy to degree level (yet you claim to have one in astronomy) and whenever you're pressed to up your standard by people like Prom or myself you and q_w have a hissy fit. Going to a forum with higher standards just means you're further from the average level of the discussion. If you wanted valid science discussions you'd be posting in the Science sections, yet you're firmly in Pseudo. Funny that....

 

"joe" is a moderator in the Astrophysics forum of Society for Popular Astronomy and he isn't giving me an easy time. He's just a lot more considerate and polite than you are. We'll let anyone else judge for themselves: http://www.popastro.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12481.

 

Think fractal pattern tubes of above average 'gravitonian flux densitites' and tubes of below average flux densities. Add the concept of 'saturation theory' based on the analogy of quicksand and the incoming tide and you have an intuitive model of non-newtonian galaxy formation and dynamics.