911 Tape: Man Kills Two Burglars

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by madanthonywayne, Nov 22, 2007.

  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Except that he didn't, did he?

    I think it's striking how Mr. Horn kept changing his story. He's gotta protect himself. He's goin' out there 'cause he's not gonna let 'em get away with it. One almost ran down the street. They came into his yard.

    At no point does it sound like a clean shoot.

    But, hell, that's Texas for you.

    • • •​

    And where did you get that? It's not on the recording.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2008
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  3. angrybellsprout paultard since 2002 Registered Senior Member

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    Oh look a bigoted liberal is back to running its mouth, but hell that's liberals for ya.

    Joe Horn never changed his story. He watched those criminals go up to his neighbor's house, break into it, and come out with stolen property. They then ran into his property. He told them to stop or that he'd shoot them. When they didn't stop, he shot them. The police weren't going to stop them, and the criminals could easily come back another day for his own house.
     
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  5. lepustimidus Banned Banned

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    Tiassa:
    He told them not to move, or he'd shoot. Or did you skip over that part in your zeal to bitch at me, as is your want?
     
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  7. Bells Staff Member

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    Which makes me question what society is coming to that it is deemed acceptable to shoot someone who is fleeing in the back because of a few possessions that belongs to someone else.

    From that transcript, he had no intention of making a citizen's arrest or making them stop. His sole intention was to kill them if your link is anything to go by:

    911 OPERATOR: You're going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun. I don't care what you think.

    HORN: You want to make a bet? I'm going to kill them.

    911 OPERATOR: OK? Stay in the house.

    He ignored 13 demands from the dispatcher to stay inside his house:

    On September 1, Texas strengthened a law giving civil immunity to people who defend themselves with deadly force, not only in their homes, but in their cars and workplaces. But this was a neighbor's house, and the 911 operator warned Horn 13 times during the call to stay inside his home.

    So it's acceptable to disobey the orders of law enforcement personnel? Even after he was apparently warned that there were plain clothed police officers in the area?

    He had -- warned repeatedly not to use his -- not to go out and use his gun. He's told that these there -- there are non-uniform, there are plainclothes officers in the area. And he takes a shotgun out there, which sprays, you know, shot all over the place.

    ----------------------------------------------------

    KING: You mentioned the -- the operator at the top. The operator was one cool customer.

    TOOBIN: Right.

    KING: He repeatedly said, don't go out is there, sir, repeatedly said, there are police officers out there, repeatedly said, don't get your gun. Do not do it.


    That's acceptable, is it?

    Here is the thing and others just don't seem to understand. Yes, he is allowed to defend himself against a threat. But tell me, do you think they were threatening him as they attempted to run away from him? They weren't running towards him. They were running away from him. He shot them in the back as they tried to flee. So how exactly is their running in away from him threatening to his self and property? By his own words in the transcript posted by madant in the OP, he admitted they were trying to run down towards the road, again, away from him. They ceased being a threat when they turned and ran.

    His sole intention from his words to the dispatcher and from his actions was to kill them. And he did so. Now just what kind of precedent will this set? The Castle Doctrine is supposed to mean protecting yourself, your family, your own property, car and business. They posed no threat to any of those that belonged to Mr Horn since they were running away from him when he shot them in the back.

    As the commentator in your own link states. It's Texas. You can't really expect anything better.

    I wonder though whether the public would have been as forgiving if it were police officers who shot a fleeing suspect in the back when said suspect posed no threat to himself or anyone else in the immediate area.
     
  8. lepustimidus Banned Banned

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    Tiassa:
    None of those assertions contradict each other.
     
  9. lepustimidus Banned Banned

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    Bells:
    In some cases, yes. For example, if a law enforcement personnel tells you to bend over so that they can explore your anal cavity with their penis, then it's acceptable to disobey their order.

    Doing an Orleander again, Bells? It's stated in the transcript that he told the burglars not to move, or he'd shoot. Hence he was attempting to make them stop. What he said prior to that out of anger when he watched them break into a house is irrelevant, in light of his behaviour afterwards. The burglars had an opportunity to surrender and come quietly, they didn't. Tough shit for them.
     
  10. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Texas logic?

    Oh, look. A misanthrope is back to his usual spew. But, hell, that's misanthropy for you.

    Joe horn did change his story. He expressed repeatedly an interest in his own self-defense. Then he changed his expression to vigilantism.

    He also stated that one was "in the front yard over there" and that the other was running down the street. In the next sentence, he said had no choice because they came into his front yard. Why would the one who he shot—while allegedly in his own front yard—be down in the front yard "over there" at the neighbor's house?

    It's like that old South Park episode: "He's comin' right for us!"

    So, yeah. You're right. He didn't change his story. Disparate conditions represent exactly the same thing, don't they? Protecting yourself from imminent threat is exactly the same as going outside to confront someone, isn't it? His front yard is exactly the same place as his neighbor's, isn't it?

    Easy enough to reconcile, right? Tell me, should we call that Texas logic?
     
  11. Bells Staff Member

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    So in other words, Horn decided to take the law into his own hands, be the judge, jury and executioner of two fleeing suspects? Right..

    Why even bother with the police? Why did he bother to call the police at all? After all, he said right from the start he was going to kill them. Why did he call them? Did he want confirmation that what he was about to do was ok? Tell me, is it ok to disobey the orders of law enforcement personnel? Is it ok to shoot two fleeing suspects in the back as they attempt to run away from you because they appeared to have stolen something from your neighbour's house?

    Would you shoot someone in the back as they were running away from you and call it self defense? Would you kill someone who stole a DVD from your neighbour's house for example? Would you shoot that person in the back?
     
  12. angrybellsprout paultard since 2002 Registered Senior Member

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    Bigoted liberals go out of their way to make excuses for criminals.

    If they ever see a criminal violating their property, they simply just gather up all of their stuff that they can so that the criminal can have an easier time.
     
  13. angrybellsprout paultard since 2002 Registered Senior Member

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    If I saw some piece of shit break into my neighbor's house, and the police weren't there by the time those same criminals were coming towards my house, then you are damn right that I'd do whatever I could to them if they didn't stop immediatly when I told them to.
     
  14. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Quit crying, Lepus

    Not what it sounds like to me. Explain the full stop in his words on the tape. Don't tell me what a CNN transcript says. Tell me what he says. And punctuate it, please.

    Waaah! Poor you!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  15. lepustimidus Banned Banned

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    Bells:
    You ever been robbed, Bells? Every had your place broken into, strange people rifling through your stuff?

    How about repeatedly? Ever had the cops say to you 'Well, there's nothing we can do?", while cautioning you that defending your property with force against armed thugs could lead to criminal charges, as well as civil lawsuits? Ever seen worthless pieces of shit walk off with your possessions which you no doubt spent hours working at a shitty job to afford? Ever fear that if your dog bites an intruder, it could be put down by a bunch of bureaucrats? Ever fear that if you get in their way (unarmed, of course, because Australians are so fucked up they don't have weapons to defend themsleves) you might get bashed and/or raped?

    Oh, and yeah, this is a bit of an 'emotional appeal', but it's also an experience my relatives and friends who live in the rougher areas of Melbourne and the suburbs are forced to face. Trying to simplify the crime of thieves to 'Oh, yeah, so what they walk off with a bit of your stuff, ha ha, just get it replaced.' is bullshit.

    The fact that they are expected to turn the other cheek while law enforcement sits on their hands, which further confirms in my mind that cops don't want to protect and serve, they only want to harass and search and get a pay check. At the end of the day, the only person you can usually rely on is yourself. In this particular case, the man getting thieved from could rely on someone other than himself: His neighbour.

    People who steal from honest people deserve to be locked up. And if they refuse to come quietly, then blow those motherfuckers away, post-haste.
     
  16. angrybellsprout paultard since 2002 Registered Senior Member

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    Tiassa most likely pulls out the lube whenever someone breaks into his house. Don't want to inconvience the criminals in any way.
     
  17. lepustimidus Banned Banned

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    Why would I do that, when the transcript from CNN already does it for me?

    I repeat: "Move, you're dead."

    Never miss an opportunity to bash me, hey Tiassa? It's almost like you seek me out. Scary.
     
  18. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Changing the subject?

    The problem with both of these points is that Mr. Horn's home was not the one broken into.

    Lepus, maybe you wouldn't feel people were bitching at you if you bothered to put up an honest argument once in a while.

    (1) Now that's a different situation than the one we're discussing, eh?

    (2) Maybe Australians really are, as you put it, fucked up. I mean, hell, you're not allowed to defend yourselves? Jesus, people would be out in the streets tearing shit up if anyone tried to pass that kind of law in the United States.

    What, do you want me to guess? Because listening to a recording is beyond your capabilities?
     
  19. angrybellsprout paultard since 2002 Registered Senior Member

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    1,251
    Shouldn't you be out looking for threads to lock because they dare to show how bogus your feminist bullshit is Tiassa?

    Shouldn't you be out showing how stupid you are when you don't even understand what the terms public domain or copypasta mean?

    You've already been proven to be full of bull in this thread already, may as well move along.

    Also, 6:51 is even further proof that you're full of crap, as if anyone didn't already know that, and that there was a distinct pause between the words move and you're.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLtKCC7z0yc
     
  20. lepustimidus Banned Banned

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    Tiassa:
    At the moment, yes. I'm on speeds that are lower than 28K dial up, so listening to the audio is quite difficult.
     
  21. Bells Staff Member

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    Huh? Is that what the dispatcher advised Mr Horn over the phone? No. He told him to not leave his house and to not take his gun out of the house to shoot the burglars. The dispatcher told him that 13 times. Are you saying that is akin to having someone stick their doodle in your bunghole?

    So you're disregarding his repeated comments about "this isn't right".. "I'm going to kill them"? You're putting that down to emotion? I think his behaviour leading up to the shooting says a lot about his true intention. The fact that he ignored the dispatcher 13 times about not going outside is telling. Or are you saying we should just ignore all the actions of a criminal leading up to a crime because it's just not relevant? Say if someone says he's going to kill a family of 5 then goes out and does it, we should just ignore the fact that it was premeditated? Is that what you're saying? That comments made about what you plan to do are somehow irrelevant when what you have done and planned to do is killed someone?

    He didn't give them a chance to come quietly. Tell me, would you come quietly to a fat guy who is not a police officer who's pointing a shotgun at you? Did he even do that? Having heard the call and having read several different transcript of that call, CNN is the only one stating that he said "stop or I'll shoot".

    Why do you need to know that?

    Was it Horn's house who was being broken into? No. It was the neighbour's house.

    Heh. You are allowed to defend yourself as the situation warrants MH. Or didn't you know that? Reasonable force. If you stab someone in the back as they are running away from you, and then try to claim self defense, then that wouldn't pass. Because someone running away from you no longer poses a threat to you. Or don't you get that?

    But here's the thing. Horn was not being threatened (people running away from you aren't exactly a threat). Nor was his property. It was his neighbour's house that was being broken into. Hell, he must really covet his neighbour's possession to ignore a police dispatcher's orders to remain in his house even after he was advised that there were plain clothed officers in the area (according to your link). You'd shoot someone over someone else's 'stuff'?

    I lived in inner city Melbourne, I also lived in Dandenong as well as Noble Park (went to school in Noble Park actually). What exactly is your point?

    I was there when the gangs first starting making inroads. I used to catch the train from Noble Park to Dandenong and then walk down Hammond Road to get to our house in Dandenong South.. alone.. This was during the time when gangs were fighting each other.. the gangs in Noble Park were always trying to kill the one's in Dandenong and vice versa. You try walking through the tunnel under Dandenong station at 5pm in the evening in winter when it's already dark.. So ya, your emotional appeal doesn't wash with me MH. I have been there and seen enough to make your hair fall out in horror.

    What exactly are you on about?

    Are you still discussing Horn or your family who live in inner city Melbourne? If someone breaks into your house and poses a deadly risk to you, you are well within your rights to defend yourself as the situation sees fit. The threat must be direct.. that means if the person is running away from you, they are no longer a threat to you. You wouldn't be charged and jailed from defending yourself, family or your home from an intruder intent on harming or killing you. So what exactly are you on about?

    Are you suggesting we just get rid of police officers and let people seek out their own justice country and western style?

    Of course. So next time a kid steals a lolly from a store, shoot the little 'motherfucker' in the head. Is that how you want to play it?
     
  22. lepustimidus Banned Banned

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    Tiassa:
    Way to miss the clue train, chump. The trick is to read my post BEFORE commenting on it.
     
  23. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,884
    (chortle!)

    You know damn well what you need to do. I'm happy to leave it closed.

    You know damn well what you need to do. I'm happy to leave it closed.

    Just to reiterate what I requested of Lepus:

    Explain the full stop in his words on the tape. Don't tell me what a CNN transcript says. Tell me what he says. And punctuate it, please.​

    And the quote I was given in return?

    "Move, you're dead."

    No full stop.

    It would seem that you and I agree on something: that there was a distinct pause between the words move and you're.

    But you don't really care about that, eh?

    I also find it interesting that CBS reported that what Mr. Horn said was "Boom!" and not "Move". I've been trying to hear the "v" in move, and it's just not there.

    And the third shot suggests, by its delay, that he fired at someone running away from him. Because it would be a difficult proposition that, after shooting someone's partner, the other would rush the guy with the gun. If the other was armed, he certainly didn't shoot back.

    And, still, that has to be one hell of a shotgun to knock the one guy all the way back into the neighbor's yard. You know, just like in Hollywood.

    • • •​

    Oh, right. Get indignant and leave us guessing.

    Are you referring to dumb shit—

    —like this?

    Do you actually have a point, or are you just getting in your daily dose of misanthropy?
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2008

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