Putting a Myth to Rest: Ticking Time Bomb/One Hour

Yes they are so caring about the rights of prisoners in Islamic Countries:

This is what it is to be a Homosexual in Islam,

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You're being egregious - torture doesn't justify more torture or mistreatment.

Well, not we hope, since the idea of human rights, democracy, e pluribus, and all that.
And the topic is a one-hour scenario to uncover the location of a supposed bomb, not Islamic fundamentalism, old son.

 

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Indeed, I am.

That's why I'm always ragging on you folks.

I'm insisting that your assumptions to speak for me may stem from y'all being a quorum locally but that does not mean this demographic's assumptions are majority opinion outside its limited reach.

As one of very few similar folks represented here, I doubt it can be argued that I am saying all kinds of things on y'all's behalf.

That's not the same thing as me saying things for your own good as much as for my own.

It takes a certain amount of effort to be heard through all the echoing in this chamber.

 

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Think of me what you want.

I'm not seeing a downside for me.

 

Islamic Fundamentalism, torture, for no other reason than that you are not a Moslem, so therefore you are not equal, therefore you are not human, at least in the The Ticking Time Bomb, the prisoner has endangered the lives of a city, what have the people tortured by the Islamic Fundies done? Surrendered, and should be treated like POW's, not have their balls cut off and stuffed into their mouths, and then be beheaded.

Lived their lives as they felt in their hearts and loved another man, and get hoisted up slowly on a crane, to choked to death slowly.

Believed in the Christian God, and Jesus Christ as their savior, and as they walk to school be kidnapped, raped and beheaded, yes tell me about the use of torture, I have seen it first hand, applied to my own people, and as I have learned there are time when all the stops are pulled out, lives at stake, lives of my people, and the information is required now.

Learn what real torture is before you call that frat house screw up at Abu Grieb torture, a whole world of difference, by your head on your chest, and your balls stuffed in your mouth.

 

No they don't. The people who have tortured almost never did it for information, and when they did what little they got was peanuts compared with what they prevented and destroyed. There are thousands of examples of that - one recent one was the failed British approach to the IRA: when they laid off the abuse, they got information and cooperation and made progress, and not until.

Or look at your favorite examples of what you call "Islamic" torturing - any of that good for information ? Did it improve their intelligence lines inside their enemy's forces ? Would you agree that our Islamic enemies have gained very little in the way of "intelligence", and lost quite a bit in prevented cooperation and help from sympathizers, by torturing people ?

Torture replaces "normal" (also known as "effective") techniques. "Normal" interrogation techniques are discarded when a policy of torture is adopted, and all their benefits lost. For example, Abu Ghraib, Bagram, and Gitmo. How much normal, relationship and connection based, cooperation motivated and ally building, interrogation and intelligence was lost in those ugly travesties ?

At one point the father of three suspected terrorists came to the Americans searching for his sons. Golden opportunity for some real intelligence, there, no? The Americans beat him to death during "interrogation" - didn't learn a thing. And my guess is that the supply of neighborhood terrorist relatives coming in to talk kind of tapered off after that - what would your guess be ?

One of the differences is that when you actually want information, you don't torture people.

One of the possibilities to consider is that the US administration at the center of this degradation has never shown any desire to obtain accurate information - about anything - and they've been perfectly happy with dubious confessions from tortured people, which they have even publicized.

Frat house screwup, was it - god what a miserable piece of shit human being would actually believe that ?

Let's inscribe that viewpoint on the lintel of the White House main entrance: "We're not quite as horrible a pack of sadistic scumbags as the worst of our enemies, unless you count our proxies in South America and Central Asia and so forth". There's a slogan to salute to, when you raise Old Glory on the Fourth of July.

 

Again you are expressing a opinion that is not from real world experience, it is nothing but your presoncieved biase.

I have worked with information, that I am more than sure, was obtained by agressive interrorgation techniques.

Again you are not looking for confessions, you are looking for data that can and will be confermed, intellengence is not just agressive interrogation, it is a web of information from many sources, everything from other prisoners who point the way to key subjects of intrest, to field resources, to electronic, and satalite, and even estamets of capabality, really agress interrorgation is rare and reserved only for the absolute resistive prisoners.

 

Yes a frat house screw up, If I had been in charge there would have been no screw up like that.

Hell I have went through just the same treatment in my survival courses, and escape and evasion training.

Yes, call the name.....(a miserable piece of shit human)..........now what would you put on the grave stone of those who died because all methods weren't exhausted in trying to save their live, What are you going to say to the survivors? That you would rather let them die, than get your hands dirty saving their lives, That your more worried about some scumbag piece of shits comfort and well being, than you are about their families and friends lives,

Yes we know who is the, IN YOUR WORDS!........

 

A one-in-a-million scenario of the Ticking Bomb would require a one-in-a-million treatment - i.e. torture.

By the way, under such scenario the Constitution would be suspended and Martial Law put in effect (which would be the common sense to do), which would mean nobody's Constitutional rights would be violated.

Like Dershowitz said, of course under such a scenario there will be torture. Anyone denying this is just plain nuts. Tiassa, you wouldn't hesitate for 3 seconds to bust out the plyers, electric cables, saws, drills and baseball bat. The only question is, should there be a legal framework for this, or are the people whose job it is to prevent a nuclear explosion in NYC going to be forced to go outside the law.

Legalizing it even only for this very rare and extraordinary circumstance would be honest, but the American Left is incapable of this sort of honesty. This dishonesty also goes hand in hand with paranoia that Bush/Cheney (or even Obama) will kidnap people and torture them for fun.

Those are the same people who would also be the first in line to cry "incompetence" and "let's change the rules" if a nuke did go off in a US city.

 

It is based on observation, reading, prediction, comparison of numerous eyewitness accounts, etc.

That's evidence of the real world.

Your assertion that a policy of torture will - or has ever, for anyone not imposing tyranny through terrorism - yielded a net gain in "actionable intelligence" over ordinary questioning and information gathering, is based on fantasy. You have never checked it out - you seem to have no comprehension of the information cost of torture, for example. The concept of information lost and intelligence coups prevented by torture seems utterly foreign to you. Just for starters.

Utter and complete bullshit. You have never been tortured.

I think you would have followed orders and policies from the interrogation officers, just as they did, except possibly not allowed that one woman to take photos on her own and give them to people.

That was the only "screwup", after all. Everything else was working just fine, as far as the interrogations were concerned. No complaints, for months. All the higher officers were satisfied with the interrogation operations at Abu Ghraib.

Anyone who calls the organized, policy guided, officially supervised torture interrogation program at Abu Ghraib a "frat house screwup" is excusable only by ignorance - and you aren't ignorant. You know about the deaths, the involvement of children and family, the rapes and injuries, the severity and duration of the abuses, and so forth.

And you prattle on about your training exercises and frat houses. Then you want respect as a decent human being ?

The honesty deficit is on the other side - pretending that this "framework" ticking bomb fantasy has anything to do with the reality of legalizing torture by the US government.

The US government is already torturing, apparently with its citizenry's permission. No ticking bombs are visible, and none have been involved. Most of the people tortured have been innocents, none have been in possession of ticking bomb info. Many false confessions have been obtained, much misinformation has been produced, and some has been used to guide or justify otherwise unjustifiable actions by the US government, or for propaganda purposes.

A typical State torture program is being set up, in other words. Nothing unusual or special about it, in its early stages anyway.

 

So ....

So as a torture advocate, would you care to give some thought to the three points I presented in response to Madanthonywayne, included in the topic post? Also, have you a response to Phillipe Sands' assertion that the British experience was that coercion doesn't work? And what of General Petraeus' assertion that while "extreme physical action can make someone 'talk'", the information would be unreliable?

Certainly, in such a situation, many would be moved to torture, but that doesn't make it right, and doesn't mean it's going to work.

I doubt it. Your beliefs may be that flexible, and comprehension so selective, but the circumstances that most demand a rational approach are not significant of a good time to stop thinking and just do what one thinks will feel good.

Perhaps it's not even a matter of flexibility to you.

Calling the situation one in a million is dishonest, Otheadp.

Address the three problems I presented in the topic post. See, the thing is that while torture advocates are willing make unsupported claims in defense of such conduct, nobody's putting up an example of the scenario. It's rather a depraved scene, all these people scrambling to reserve their right to be no better than what they claim to be better than.

Face it: a lot of people actually envy the terrorists.

And that's pathetic.

Some, maybe. Or likely. But some people actually believe in abstractions like justice and propriety. While that may be difficult for you to comprehend, it's still the truth.

• • •​

We need to get you in front of Congress, Buffalo. An expert like you needs to contradict the British lawyer who explained to them that his government's experience with the IRA was that coercion didn't work.

Yeah, that's about as specific as the guy who says he was raised by the Army as part of their special telekinetic assassination program, and has proof, but won't show it because the Army will assassinate him with telekinesis.

And, yes, I actually met a guy like that down in Oregon. His name was Rob, and a lot of his conspiracy theories—such as the tracking devices in the twenty dollar bill—came straight out of the X-Files.

After you're done in Congress, we need to fly you out to Iraq. Because Petraeus considers information obtained through torture unreliable, and instructs the soldiers under his command as such.

If only you were in charge, we would have won this war by now. Right?

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So does the pretense that you're seeking information justify what is otherwise sadistic and unjustifiable?

• • •​

So we have torture advocates, and also three votes in support of the One Hour scenario, but none of these advocates have yet put that situation in front of us.

We might wonder why that is.

 

Those 3 points are trying to introduce nuances into the hypothetical situation. My answer assumes that there are no nuances (hence the extremely small, one-in-a-million chance of it occurring, and the one-in-a-million probability of torture ever needed to be used).

Right or not - that's a question for philosophers. Under a ticking bomb scenario there is only one objective - to get it to stop under any circumstances. NOW is the time to decide if it's right or not by answering Dershowitz' question (see my previous post). That's the only thing that can be done about that moral dilemma.

Other than that you have full moral authority to torture away. Because while it's reprehensible, not torturing and getting hundreds of thousands to die is worse. Yes, 100,000 > 1.

Now that's a whole different story. The experts should decide on that. If it won't work than there's no point doing it. But most of your argument assumes that it will work, and suggests that it shouldn't be done only because it's immoral.

Why? It's a rare scenario, no?

Huh?

 

(chortle!)

So the practical concerns of what to do if a one in a million chance occurs are irrelevant?

And the practical concerns you're afraid to address consider the question of whether or not torture is an effective way to stop the ticking time bomb.

What, that's not a question for philosophers?

See Phillippe Sands' testimony, cited earlier. Also see the memo by Gen. Petraeus.

Actually, if you gave any attention to the practical concerns I raised, you would be able to recognize that my argument includes the point that torture is ineffective.

So why don't we set this discussion aside until you catch up and figure out just what the hell you're talking about.

Take a look at yourself.

 

No it's not as those sources are not privileged to the actual event, they are not present when the interrogation take place and they don't have access to the information garnered from those interrogation ,and nether are you.

No what is foreign is you failure to understand that there have been intelligence coup from aggressive interrogation..

The fact is that you can't gain intelligence from a hard core terrorist like, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, with the normal ordinary questioning and information, it just don't work that way.

20 years in the Military, 16 years as reconnaissance, and scouting, gathering intelligence, and taking action on intelligence received from interrogations..

As I have said before I have been involved in thing that became actionable from sources that I am sure were subjected to aggressive interrogation techniques.

And the operations were complete success, because they were never know about, and no friendly died, meaning your extended family members.

Yes, I have never been tortured :roflmao: yes go through a escape and evasion course, try a few survival schools, I have been water boarded, in fact I also use a netti pot, just about the same thing, no I haven't had the pleasure of having paper stuffed down the back of my flight suit and set ablaze, like was done to British pilots in Gulf War One, I have never had the pleasure of being raped like Shoshana Johnson, Lori Ann Piestewa, or Jessica Lynch, True I haven't been strung up by my wrist, with my arms behind my back like John McCain, but I have been subjected to stress positions, cold, sleep depravation and waterboarding, and a number of other items that were a pain to go through just to get my ticked punch to qualify for the job/mission.

Believe what you want, as I know your were never there, you have no practical experience and yet you wish to be given the respect of someone who has been their, right up to my eyeballs, watching people die because of terrorist.

Yes nothing but a over blown screw up, of the same mentality of a bunch of frat boys, of which I believe you are one, no fucking common sense, and no proper supervision by a Good Officer or NCO, not torture, just plain old head up ass screw up.

Yes, I know, those who do, know, those who don't pontificate, and pass judgements that they aren't qualified to make, and the fact is that you don't know squat about this subject, your a arm chair quarterback making Monday morning calls.

What have you done to deserve respect? Monday Morning Quarterback? Tell me, Morning Quarterback?, at least I was in the game, not siting safe at home, and back stabbing those who do it everyday with it all on the line.

What have you ever put on the line other than your lip?

Morning Quarterback?The honesty deficit is on the other side - pretending that this "framework" ticking bomb fantasy has anything to do with the reality of legalizing torture by the US government.[/QUOTE]

Have you ever had to write a letter to someone parents, wife, son, to tell them that their family member, loved one, the dearest part of their life, has been killed?

Did you have to write the letters to the families from 9/11 to explain why because of policy screw up starting in the Clinton Administration, their Son, Daughter, Father, Mother, Wife, Husband who ever, died because we didn't have the balls to aggressively purseue those who meant and did harm to our country?

Yeah, Frat Boy tell me how it is, tell me how the blood and the gut of you people smell when they are splashed all over you and every other time around you, yes tell me about the screams of the dying, and wounded, yes tell me just how much you really know about the reality of death and dying, huh Frat Boy.

Morning Quarterback?The US government is already torturing, apparently with its citizenry's permission. No ticking bombs are visible, and none have been involved. Most of the people tortured have been innocents, none have been in possession of ticking bomb info. Many false confessions have been obtained, much misinformation has been produced, and some has been used to guide or justify otherwise unjustifiable actions by the US government, or for propaganda purposes.[/QUOTE]

And just maybe that is why no ticking time bombs are visible, Just how dumb are you? Huh Frat Boy, when it become visible it will be to late.

Nothing typical about it, you don't know, and I don't know, when it suites you you want to believe the news when it don't suite you you dismiss the news, and all your information come from the news, spun and packaged to fit their agenda.

 

Look, feel free to disagree and to look down on me with your nose held high. When/if the time comes and torture is used, I won't be gloating, but my conscience will be clear.

 

Experts in what ?

People who torture a lot are some of the least reliable informants available as to its efficacy.

We don't have to pass laws to handle ticking bomb scenarios where legal torture is our only hope, for the same reason we don't have to pass laws to handle euthanasia if an asteroid is going to hit the planet in a couple of weeks.

 

In interrogation. The people who don't hypothesize and intellectualize the exercise, but actually do it on a regular basis. They know best.

Why, because it would be pointless? I guess it's true on a certain level. I just know that if there is no such legal framework (and there won't be, because as I've said, the American left is not ready to admit certain things to themselves), it will still happen under the above scenario, and then when it's found out by the public, the ACLU types will raise a storm, but the public will be so damn happy, that legal framework will be introduced and passed with flying colours.

Besides, while I'm inclined to agree with Patreus about torture not being effective, I doubt he's talking about all scenarios. Even he will personally torture under such conditions.

 

Your euphemisms are symptomatic and self-serving - the kind of weasel language common among people trying to avoid something. Cowardice. We're talking about torture, call it by its name.

Maybe one or two "coups", it's possible - I haven't found any, in my searches, but the possibility is always there. So? Look at the cost. Abu Ghraib blowback alone wiped out any of the informational gains from the past few years of torture and rendition - and then there's Gitmo, Bagram, the renditions exposed, the innocents released and talking on the news, etc.

And that's just the direct cost. The opportunity cost has been astronomical.

It's not just the beheadings that started after the Abu Ghraib photos came out (that was an example of jihadist scum making a PR mistake, and we might chalk it up to a benefit of Abu Ghraib if we're making those kinds of calculations - we provoked a misstep).

It's also the loss of all the cooperation a famously decent, honestly motivated, disciplined and honorable US would have received from Muslims worldwide, the very thing we need most in this conflict. What are we short of ? Human intelligence, the sort of moral and ethical cooperation decent people get from decent people. Why are we short of that ? Because decent people with jihadist connections are not coming forward, not secretly helping, not taking risks to help us. Why not ?

It's been a disaster, this torture program - possibly because the people employing it had fooled themselves it really was for information ? Americans aren't that good at tyranny - usually they have to be conned into it (live in Buffalo's fantasy world), or hire it done, and that makes them less reliable implementers.

That's not a fact, that's a common fantasy of people like you. The fact is that most of what the torturers said they tortured out of that guy was BS. Did they believe it ? Did they waste precious time and resources chasing it down ? Did they capture and torture others, innocents or uninvolved, in consequence ? Or were they just lying to the public once again ?

 

And they tell me torture doesn't work, net and long term. That it doesn't even get the info as well, let alone make up for all its blowback and subsidiary costs.

And professional interrogators are not even accounting most of those subsidiary costs and blowbacks. Those are political, economic, widespread and subtle and enduring.

Oh happy day.

In the movies, the lynch mob often comes to its senses later. In national politics, it can take generations.

 

The "aggressive techniques": stress positions - being chained to a floor so you can't move but have to squat for as long as the interrogators see fit, loud music and bright lights to deprive sleep and cause disorientation, simulated drowning, physical assault.
When does any of this become valid interrogation techniques, please?

What's wrong with calling it what it is - an excuse to dish out summary punishment because a person disagrees with certain ideals or ideas of "democracy", "military dominance", "political expedience", etc and etc?

Why are there still "suspects" in Gitmo after six or seven years of interrogation? Aren't GW and his psycho-buddies just exacting revenge (in a medieval kind of way) against a people and a system they dislike (i.e. Muslims)?

I think that's exactly what they're doing. And idiots in the military or who are wedded to the military cause (like you) who swallow the bullshit and actually believe it's "doing the good work", or are even "proud" of the torture facilities and what they represent and the things that get done to human beings, by human beings who seem to be blissfully ignorant of the effect torturing another human being has on their own psyche, or can justify it by being all staunch and patriotic, wrapping themelves in a bit of completely useless coloured cloth they call a "flag", that they pronounce affinity to (even "love" for). A bit of cloth isn't much of a bullet or blade or brick stopping device, so clearly such people (perhaps yourself), must be seriously deluded.

Being a military man, and believing that military "action" is the right thing - i.e. war is "good", appears to involve serious self delusion, though. At least I think so.