i donno if this has been discussed already at this forum cuz im fairly new... i have a special place in my heart for 'fight club'... its a brilliant portrayal of the current social situation with internal realizations by the protagonist leading to extreme behaviour... i love every aspect of how its been handled... surprised that the movie is as good as every bit of the book.... edward norton and brad pitt give a performance of their lifetime...

just wonderin what the members think about this movie...

p.s. the soundtrack is fantastic too...

Self-destruction, or being destroyed by others if you accept it rather than fight it, is very liberating I think. Get yourself thoroughly abused by a nice dominant girl whose only goal is to absolutely rip you apart. ;) Lose every inhibition. When you are destroyed, there is no more fear. Nothing left to lose, no fears, because fear is based on losing something about ourselves.

Oh, I should say, doing that with a nice friendly girl is just one facet of life to be dealt with, if you choose to do so. There are also other things to do, which have similar effects on other aspects of our lives.

I love the movie. I really liked it at the theatre and it only grew on me with further viewings.

My bro says the book is good I plan reading it. I dunno if it will be as good since I know the twist now...

are you talking outta experience there adam? :D

being abused by a fine young gal is currently underway already.. need something more...

fading captain.. the book is wicked... only after reading the book do you realize the brilliance of the movie..... not that i thought the movie was a piece of shit before reading.. it just wowed me more.. check it out... its def worth it..

Boring. Self-destruction leads you back in the cycle, unless you kill yourselves. 'Fight Club' was hoak

I think that you missed the point of Fight Club. It wasn't about the fighting. At the end, they destroy all of the buildings with all of the financial records and such.

Maybe you did know that, I couldn't tell. Anyway, I truely believe in that movie. So, if you want to do all that shit, I'm in.

I recently found out that I am schizophrenic, in the very same way that Pitt and Norton were in the movie. On one side of me, I am the "happy, funny guy," but on the other side, I am a suicidal machine bent on saving the earth. It sucks because I do hurt myself, but its always worth it. When you get to that point in your life, no one understands you, and that hurts. As long as you think that each side of you is right, you get pulled further away from yourself. So, half of me is totally into destruction of the immoral society which I despise, but the other half is just ignorant.

Slacker,
are you sure you're not bi-polar? Look in to it.

On the note of fight club... I had the twist ruined for me, but I still loved the movie to death. The dialogue is beautiful, and the grittiness of the whole movie is nicely done. Brilliant movie.

Chuck Palahnuik is fucking God. He realized that we've had our aggressive, powerful impulses stripped from us by our society in order to make us more docile little slaves to the double-mocha-latte.

Get yourself thoroughly abused by a nice dominant girl whose only goal is to absolutely rip you apart. Lose every inhibition. When you are destroyed, there is no more fear. Nothing left to lose, no fears, because fear is based on losing something about ourselves.

You're playing with death, being stripped of all power and you're loving it because you know that power is going to hunt you down like a psychotic stalker and be yours no matter how much you taunt it.

being abused by a fine young gal is currently underway already.. need something more...

That's because you aren't destroying your life as well. Sexual abuse is well and good, but in the end, you could safe out at any moment. Oh, yeah, and you end up giving them more than you ever intended to. Which sucks.

Destroy your life and your body, and you're on the right track.

I recently found out that I am schizophrenic, in the very same way that Pitt and Norton were in the movie.

Every human is. The only way I've found to deal with the contradiction is to swallow them yourself and tell everyone else to swallow the contradiction or get fucked.

Destroy your life and your body, and you're on the right track.
Destroy every piece that society and culture has molded. Destroy every value you purport to uphold. It is easier said than done. You are left with who you really are.

The only way I've found to deal with the contradiction is to swallow them yourself and tell everyone else to swallow the contradiction or get fucked.
Swallow the contradiction or free it? I think everyone swallows it and ignores when it should be expressed freely and openly.

fading:
Destroy every piece that society and culture has molded. Destroy every value you purport to uphold. It is easier said than done. You are left with who you really are.

Yes, it is much easier said than done. I've been trying for months and I'm still nowhere near completely broken.

Swallow the contradiction or free it? I think everyone swallows it and ignores when it should be expressed freely and openly.

Yes, I agree. As for swallowing the contradiction, I mean accepting it and not trying to be only one person or the other. Over-analyzing is also a problem, at least for me.

Other people, they exploit the side that suits thier interests best. If one is to avoid being used by undeserving idiots, one has to accept and honour and most of all, defend both sides.

If you are rebelling against society you are still society's slave. The only way to be free is to not concider society at all in your decisions.

To be more accurate, you're a rebellious, disobedient slave.

Originally posted by Xev
Chuck Palahnuik is fucking God. He realized that we've had our aggressive, powerful impulses stripped from us by our society in order to make us more docile little slaves to the double-mocha-latte.

Destroy your life and your body, and you're on the right track.

Every human is. The only way I've found to deal with the contradiction is to swallow them yourself and tell everyone else to swallow the contradiction or get fucked.

That is good shit. Fucking raw.

Maybe I'm slow, but you seem like a nihilist from your apparent quest for self destruction. Does that mean you're in it for the drama? I mean if you're going to break it down, why not document it? Why not SELL it on the way out, and distribute the money (since if you kept it you might be percieved as not breaking down) across all registered satanic cults and a few christian fundamentalists (just to keep people on their toes). why bother? why not just kill yourself? too much hassle?

I'm sorry, maybe you're not a nihilist, I just enjoyed ranting. I forgot, you hate metaphysics. Pardon. I'll just fuck off.

---Destroy every piece that society and culture has molded. Destroy every value you purport to uphold. It is easier said than done. You are left with who you really are. ---

that's the plan my friend... agree with Xev... still aint close to bein brokenn...

---The only way to be free is to not concider society at all in your decisions.---

exactly.. not give a fuck about the system cuz it bogs us down..

---Other people, they exploit the side that suits thier interests best---

that's the problem here u knoww.. everyone wants to be categorized and confined to some bloody image which provides a false sense of security and u actually start believin in it... illusions that need to be torn apart to realize the complexity of the person instead of trynna fit into something...

i love the part in the movie where tyler is talkin about how he consulted his father for everything... go to school... then what? get a fuckin degree... then what? get married... the point im trynna make is a lil diff from that particular scene.. there is a set system of how life should be for each person... since the day you are born, the next 25 years of your life have been figured out minus some details that are left upto the individual givin him/her a sense of freedom... but we're actually victims of blood sucking leeches who thrive on the very fact that the whole world has been brainwashed to believe in the SOCIETAL system... fuck this system... there has to be somethin better... im not gonna spend 25 yrs of my life pursuing what society deems right to find myself in the midst of clones who talk walk and speak the same superficial language of bullshit...... everything is a bloody business these days...

---Maybe I'm slow, but you seem like a nihilist from your apparent quest for self destruction. Does that mean you're in it for the drama?---

not in for the drama... in for figurin what this shithole is all about..

--why not just kill yourself? too much hassle?---

easy way out...

Left with who you really are? There's a very distinct possibilty there's nothing there to begin with.

Oh, though, that damn movie is badass, for sure. I think it's one of my favorites. I really enjoyed "rosencrants and gildenstern are dead" ass well. oh yeah, and "henry fool", pretty cool.

Her name escapes me, that poor woman who was born blind, deaf, mute... She was in a world of silence and utter solitude. They divised a language out of touching her hands, but I wonder if she ever really knew anyone but her existed....
Just a though, don't know if it really pertains to this thread, other than that, SHE was left with herself and nothing else...

helen keller

THAT'S it! I always confuse her name with that other woman who spent her whole life helping monkeys.... :bugeye:

do i have to see the movie to understand this thread?


:(

Originally posted by notme2000
THAT'S it! I always confuse her name with that other woman who spent her whole life helping monkeys.... :bugeye:

jane goodhall? is that her?

Originally posted by spookz
do i have to see the movie to understand this thread?


:(

yes, you have to. sciforums thread number 933.4 commands it.

yeahh.. id suggest you do dat spookz... go and rent it.. it will be worthwhile.. :)

Left with who you really are? There's a very distinct possibilty there's nothing there to begin with.
Yes. A definite possibility and the thought is scary. But at least there would be a bare foundation to build upon.

my pride and good sense dissallow degradation as a route to enlightenment. I prefer construction to destruction, I prefer attempts at deep social interaction rather than exploration of self through pain. I think that the latter has some implications of standing physcological damage and a refuting of the truth of love and respect. While I don't think life is all about love, it's an important part. I don't think loss of love leads to degradation unless you're too weak to get your shit back together, to manage your attitude... and then well, you deserve what you get. If you are even half assed socially gifted then when you seek help, help ye shall find.

but I haven't really thought that all the way through... seems right to me at the moment.

my pride and good sense dissallow degradation as a route to enlightenment.
Who is talking about degradation? I do not consider a re-evaluation of values degrading.

. I prefer construction to destruction,
Ahh, but how can you construct when everything you are basing yourself on came not by choice...but by social conditioning?

I prefer attempts at deep social interaction rather than exploration of self through pain.
I think social interaction can only go so far and will eventually lead to exploration of the self. I dunno about the 'though pain' part. Maybe your comments are geared towards Xev so sorry if I am way off...

Originally posted by fadingCaptain
Who is talking about degradation?

Maybe I read it wrong, but I'd swear that's what Xev and the Marquis and another person or two were talking about. Please, straighten me out if I misunderstood.
Originally posted by fadingCaptain

I do not consider a re-evaluation of values degrading.

Me either. I started when I was about 14.
Originally posted by fadingCaptain

Ahh, but how can you construct when everything you are basing yourself on came not by choice...but by social conditioning?

Well, you have to choose what you accept and you don't as soon as you are able to do so. I believe the wise accept nothing, maintaining only a convincing illusion of form (so to speak).

Originally posted by fadingCaptain

I think social interaction can only go so far and will eventually lead to exploration of the self.

I agree... I think it leads to exploration of self in the teen years, but can readily halt if you let it.
Originally posted by fadingCaptain

I dunno about the 'though pain' part. Maybe your comments are geared towards Xev so sorry if I am way off...

yeah, mostly towards the pain seekers (and again, maybe I took the commentary wrong or something). I think seeking pain is symptomatic of pain, chemical imbalance, or just plain ugliness (there are probably other conditions that lead to the quest for pain that I'm not thinking of). (of course there is a fine line between pain and pleasure, but I'm talking about plain pain)

I do think though, that hardcore pain seeking self destruction is A way to self-discovery, but it's gonna fuck you up in a bunch of different ways. More so I think than potential alternative methods.

wesmorris:
Maybe I read it wrong, but I'd swear that's what Xev and the Marquis and another person or two were talking about. Please, straighten me out if I misunderstood.

*In best "Bat Guano" voice*

That's because you're a deviated prevert.

I actually was not thinking about sex. Being humiliated and forced to accept pain is different (to my mind) than forcing yourself to take pain to see how much you can stand.

yeah, mostly towards the pain seekers (and again, maybe I took the commentary wrong or something). I think seeking pain is symptomatic of pain, chemical imbalance, or just plain ugliness (there are probably other conditions that lead to the quest for pain that I'm not thinking of).

As you wish. But why?

(of course there is a fine line between pain and pleasure, but I'm talking about plain pain)

Plain pain? Do explain. Either you talk about sex, in which case the tao of the yin and yang of pain is completed by the complement of pleasure to pain, or you talk about asceticism, in which case I cannot see how exalting your Will through the voluntary bearing of pain is degrading.

Did that make sense? (Crowd yells "NO! NO! SHUT UP!)

synchoindian:
i love the part in the movie where tyler is talkin about how he consulted his father for everything... go to school... then what? get a fuckin degree... then what? get married... the point im trynna make is a lil diff from that particular scene.. there is a set system of how life should be for each person... since the day you are born, the next 25 years of your life have been figured out minus some details that are left upto the individual givin him/her a sense of freedom... but we're actually victims of blood sucking leeches who thrive on the very fact that the whole world has been brainwashed to believe in the SOCIETAL system... fuck this system... there has to be somethin better... im not gonna spend 25 yrs of my life pursuing what society deems right to find myself in the midst of clones who talk walk and speak the same superficial language of bullshit...... everything is a bloody business these days...

I could not agree more. The thought of being caged or tied down terrifies me, and yet to avoid it I have destroyed only my own future.

Originally posted by Xev
The thought of being caged or tied down terrifies me, and yet to avoid it I have destroyed only my own future.

This makes the assumption that you only have a "future" if you accede to their values. What you may have done is made it impossible for you to live with yourself under those terms, thereby creating for yourself a different future.

Even the term "future" itself, in the means by which you have used it, seems to impart a feeling of lost security. Do you want to feel secure? It might kill you.

Getting a little personal, I've only ever "dipped" into being a social animal when the need has arisen, be it boredom, or the need for money. That has never excluded me from leaving a situation when I felt my own "self" being absorbed by it. The fear that has caused has been enough in the past for me to move on regardless of the loss of a comfortable situation.

This makes the assumption that you only have a "future" if you accede to their values. What you may have done is made it impossible for you to live with yourself under those terms, thereby creating for yourself a different future.

Aye Marquis. My lack of a future is a lack of the chains they call a future.

*Smiles*

I'm a wolf, not a lapdog. I can't bear domestication.

Getting a little personal, I've only ever "dipped" into being a social animal when the need has arisen, be it boredom, or the need for money. That has never excluded me from leaving a situation when I felt my own "self" being absorbed by it. The fear that has caused has been enough in the past for me to move on regardless of the loss of a comfortable situation.

Yes, I know. I'm 19. I've only started "feeling" for people in the last seven months.

I had no idea what they were like.

there is a set system of how life should be for each person... since the day you are born, the next 25 years of your life have been figured out minus some details that are left upto the individual ...

Says who? There isn't a "set system". All there is is a lot of people who are leading a life you don't want to live.

So don't. What's the problem?

MacZ...

there is definitely a SET SYSTEM... there is a path that is charted out for everyone by the society... if you read what i wrote in that post, u wud've understood what i was trynna say... im talkin about how your first 25 years of life are pretty much pre determined.... you dont have a choice when u enter first grade... ur parents put u there just cuz its wat all parents do... and then you can't get out cuz the society doesnt accept ppl who rebel... i just dont like the way how after school, u have to go to uni and get a job.. and then get stuck to it miserably... im just sick of expectations, responsibilities and what YOU SHOULD BE DOING..

if there are other ppl followin the rules laid down by society, i dont care about it.. i dont judge em, and they shouldn't judge me.. that's all i ask for from ppl... this is way too complicated to explain....

i hope u get the gist....

Syncoindan
there is definitely a SET SYSTEM... there is a path that is charted out for everyone by the society... if you read what i wrote in that post, u wud've understood what i was trynna say... im talkin about how your first 25 years of life are pretty much pre determined.... and then you can't get out cuz the society doesnt accept ppl who rebel

Hey, I'm not being critical and I get what you're saying. Maybe I said it wrong. What I mean is that yes, people expect things and there's a well-trodden path you could follow. And yes, it's much harder (not so straightforward) when the one you want to take is different.

But if you want to take it, take it. No one's actually stopping you, are they? Why can't you just ignore the "should do's" ? What does it matter if, as you feel, "society doesn't accept people who rebel"?

What, exactly, is the obstacle?

i see what you sayin macz...

there are plenty of obstacles... well, i dont give a damm what everyone else thinks if i dont do what everyone else is doin... but i come from a collective culture and the worst thing would be to just completely rebel against your family.... so on one hand i wanna do what i want, but i have to temporarily shelve everythin just cuz they want me to do somethinn... its really frustratinn..
my parents have put up with a lot of my whims and vice versa... so its hard to find a balance... there is one way where i cud just d the family business and spend the rest of my life comfortably.. but that really sucks... and im not bein forced into that, but i can see that some paths they might want me to take will take me there.. well, i'll deal with the outcome when that happens...

im not sure if that answered ur ques, but that's the big problem... well, im sure life is gonna capsize my whole enterprise sometime... :D

An additional problem, Mac, is that we've been conditioned to want things. How are we to know which are the ones we truely want?

There are things one wants - not to starve, not to end up living in a cardboard box - that require us to interact with society.

Syncoindian:
im not sure if that answered ur ques, but that's the big problem... well, im sure life is gonna capsize my whole enterprise sometime...
Yes, thanks... that makes sense. That's tricky in the real, as opposed to the worn out, "they're all against me". Sounds like you'll come up with some real alternatives, because you're halfways to knowing what you don't want. Like you said, balance is a good thing. Not throwing out the baby with the dishwater and all that.

My dad, he had the family business thing. He joined the army. Just a suggestion... :D

For me, well letting them wave me off on the train to Normalville (university) wasn't such a bad thing. Got rid of the background noise, got together with myself, figured some of it out and, well, jumped the train in the end.

But there have always big plans that ended up completely differently - and so have the bits that were supposed to be ordinary.

A lot of the so called ordinary bits have ended up taking me in some totally wild, bizarre and amazing directions that I couldn't have planned for because they were so far off the beaten track I wouldn't have known how to get there. Guess that's what life does (maybe I should read all that Absurdity thread.) And they've been the best parts, even when they haven't been so good.

So maybe it's a matter of being willing to jump trains all the time, sort of follow your nose, and then you won't get stuck and swamped. Anyway, just seems to me that a lot of it isn't up to us anyway, any more than it's up to anyone else and it will be a good ride if you're game.:cool:

Rebel!

Ironic that this anti-estbalishment, rah rah talk is centered around something as corporateand sexified as a movie starring Brad Pitt. Pretty sad that the conclusions being drawn as response to this creation of the demi-god film industry might not have otherwise been made.

Remove yourself from television, media ,advertisement, and financial obligation and see if you still have the urge to self destruct.

Don't get me wrong, the film is great, a true classic-But keep in mind that money,media and politics go hand in hand...this makes me wonder which corporate fuck (more likely plural) sat at abig comfy conference table and thought: People like to feel understood, and if we portray situations similar to those of regular working people, make them feel recognized, justifieds, elicit an extreme emotional response- then we will make a hell of a lot of money.

Even in our rebellion we are puppets.

Film, yeah I'm all for it, I just hope the irony is as clear to others as it is to me.

yeahh phantom... im aware of what you are talkin about.. wat we're discussin here is the point of the movie... of course its ironical to make a movie about somethin it opposes vehemently... but we know that...

keep in check

Originally posted by Xev
wesmorris:


*In best "Bat Guano" voice*

That's because you're a deviated prevert.

Stop flirting. :) Okay now start again. Stop, nevermind. I thought you'd never notice...
Originally posted by Xev

I actually was not thinking about sex. Being humiliated and forced to accept pain is different (to my mind) than forcing yourself to take pain to see how much you can stand.

You know, I'm pretty sure I must have been talking out my ass. Have you ever gone back through your posts and been all like "what the fuck was I getting at?". Yeah, well you might guess that this time, that's me. I thought I had a valid point at the time, but I think I was getting a little mixed up with degradation, sex and pain and all the facets thereof. *places the crack pipe on the ground, steps away and submits to apprehension*
Originally posted by Xev

As you wish. But why?

Well, what I was trying to get at was that every time I've met a person who seeks psychological pain (and you know they're out there, most of them not doing so consciously), it was because of their deep psychological pain. I don't think I made that very clear.. but I was still a little lost (see above) at the time.

Originally posted by Xev

Plain pain? Do explain.

Well, in this case I mean like slamming your hand in a car door. That's plain pain. I'm not sure now though, that what I was saying was relavent because I was all jacked up on crack. I'll try to keep track of what the hell I'm saying in the future.
Originally posted by Xev

Either you talk about sex, in which case the tao of the yin and yang of pain is completed by the complement of pleasure to pain, or you talk about asceticism, in which case I cannot see how exalting your Will through the voluntary bearing of pain is degrading.

asceticism. damnit I love having to look shit up. you're inspiring. I believe your point to be clear enough, while I'm still not so sure about mine.

I was trying to say that is seems as if you seek degradation in order to get to freedom. I probably was using degradation in a different context than you and thusly confusion. I meant it seems to me that "degradation" is "you seek to be broken" by external forces. I was trying to say there are more contructive means by which to become free.

You just have to be it. I think it can be done internally through sheer will. It starts by figuring out what is important and what assumptions you've made, then putting in place "breakers" so to speak in real time that warn of impending bullshit. that is easy since everything in a sense is impending bullshit.

I'm posting this in a hurry (trying to leave work) and have been fucked twice by a haunted computer in an attempt to respond, so please pardon the lack of formatting and potential lack of any real point.

wesmorris:
Stop flirting. Okay now start again. Stop, nevermind. I thought you'd never notice...

I always notice.

You know, I'm pretty sure I must have been talking out my ass. Have you ever gone back through your posts and been all like "what the fuck was I getting at?". Yeah, well you might guess that this time, that's me. I thought I had a valid point at the time, but I think I was getting a little mixed up with degradation, sex and pain and all the facets thereof. *places the crack pipe on the ground, steps away and submits to apprehension*

You mean you expect your posts to make sense? *Laughs*

Example: I like words. I like to play with them and manipulate them. But they always fail me when I have something important to say, really important. And I am left trying to explain why I said things that I don't believe or mean.

Well, what I was trying to get at was that every time I've met a person who seeks psychological pain (and you know they're out there, most of them not doing so consciously), it was because of their deep psychological pain. I don't think I made that very clear.. but I was still a little lost (see above) at the time.

Psychological pain is horrible. It - corrupts. Physical pain can be a mark of distinction, of strength, but psychological pain is merely something to be avoided and endured.

asceticism. damnit I love having to look shit up. you're inspiring. I believe your point to be clear enough, while I'm still not so sure about mine.

Thank you. But I'm really just making this shit up as I go along. :)

I was trying to say that is seems as if you seek degradation in order to get to freedom. I probably was using degradation in a different context than you and thusly confusion. I meant it seems to me that "degradation" is "you seek to be broken" by external forces. I was trying to say there are more contructive means by which to become free.

I do have a bit of a thing for being broken in certain ways, but not in order to become free. I don't fool myself into thinking that my, erm, sexual tastes are anything more than my power obsession and my difficulty relating to other people made flesh. Certainly not the road to freedom.

I think I was being vauge as well.

What I mean is that I want to break myself. To strip away every imposed value and to break my reverence for idols. And I can only do this for myself.

I think I came here because of conceptual log jam. I've been kind of sickly addicted to this site since I ran across it a couple of months ago. I think I've gotten it out now, the old river conceptual cruisin right along. In fact, I think it's started moving the other way.

When I pay this dude, you'll see "brain drain" under my name. That is literally where I'm at. I'm drained. Every bit of who I am and what I've thought (at least about philosophical type shit) for a long time is flowing out of me... it's dissipating back into the bullshit from whence it formed and well, I'm drained. I've got nuthin. It seems that's what I've been needing.

Is this at all what you mean by "self destruction is the answer?" To me, it seems has always been a cycle. I'll seek seek seek, analyze, analyze, talk shit, talk shit... REST. Begin again. Is it a cycle of depletion and renewal?

Eh... I'm tired, yawning and drained. Hehe, I like it that I'm finally saying to myself sincerely "maybe you're missing the point", I haven't been there for a year or few.

Bah, no shit. You analyze, analyze, analyze, and at the end of the day, you say "what the fuck" and try to accept that you won't ever know everything.

Fuck that. I want everything. I WANT TO KNOW! I WANT TO KNOW! I - AM POSTING IN ALLCAPS LIKE SOME FUNDIE!

And I'm a bit out of it now.

Download the song:
Dust Brothers - This Is Your Life

that song is awesome.. i gotta say that the entire movie soundtrack is wicked... love it..

Originally posted by Xev
I'm a wolf, not a lapdog. I can't bear domestication.

One of the sad ironies of the world: the Pekinese thrives while the Jaguar faces extinction.

Originally posted by Xev
Bah, no shit. You analyze, analyze, analyze, and at the end of the day, you say "what the fuck" and try to accept that you won't ever know everything.

Fuck that. I want everything. I WANT TO KNOW! I WANT TO KNOW! I - AM POSTING IN ALLCAPS LIKE SOME FUNDIE!

And I'm a bit out of it now.

Mwah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!! (ha,ha, evil laugh, evil laugh) My kind of response. I want to know everything too, and I will not die until I do.

As for self destruction, I wish I had come upon it before it raped me. It is liberating when I know it is helped, but at first, I just didn't get it, and when I got completely torn apart, I was devastated. Now, I can learn and grow and like muscle, I will get stronger and better the more I break and the more I suffer, so I now welcome the lessons of pain.